Freedom project whilst in abusive relationship?

[SunflowerSu]

I’ve just read through the Freedom Project, online version.

The bully, Liar and sexual controller all ring true for my husband.

We’re still together and I’m still holding on to the idea that he can change. Although I realise that would take a LOT of hard work which he currently isn’t even considering.

Has anybody else ever done the freedom project when in the relationship?
Anybody ever directed their partner to it and seen any change?

The parts of it that make me think change is actually possible is firstly, the author talks about men who have attended her programme and engaged with it and secondly that it seems most of the behaviour she describes is learnt. Yes, it’s deeply engrained from their own experiences but surely if it’s learnt, it can be unlearnt with the right help?

I sound daft don’t I!!!

The freedom programme should first and foremost be for you. A space to talk about and discuss what is happening in your life in relation to the different personas used.

As you attend more I’m sure more of them might start to make sense too.

Some groups are still running and some groups are happening over zoom.

I believe it shouldn’t be our job as women to help someone to change, they should want to do this themselves. Is he saying he wants to? Does he recognise his abusive behaviour? Regardless, you need to prioritise yourself.

There are studies being conducted in the effectiveness of perpetrator programmes, but ask anyone who works in DV and they won’t mince their words about their effectiveness...

I only paid for the online version. I would find it hard to attend any weekly virtual session as I wouldn’t really want him to know I was doing that.

He seems aware. He’s 2 different people. All of his abusive behaviour comes out whenever he feels judged or ‘nagged’. Most of the time he is fine. But if he feels like he has been criticised in any way at all, he changes and acts like a total knob for days and days.

I’m waking up to the fact that it’s a choice. I used to think he was just damaged and struggled to deal with emotional stuff because of his own upbringing where talking isn’t really the done thing. His dad is also a massive bully.

It’s just becoming clearer to me that it’s a choice and a tactic that he uses to control the narrative.

So as much as he’s aware and apparently ashamed when he’s calmed down - I think he is also aware of what’s happening when it’s happening yet he chooses to do that anyway.

He tells me he will change and seek outside help but he never does. He decides a few days later to just try and brush it under the carpet and he knows I won’t bring it up because he will kick off again.

95% of the time, he’s pretty perfect. It’s just this emotional immaturity and inability to have a constructive conversation about anything difficult.

Sorry OP, I’ve worked in DV for a couple of decades now, and they don’t change. Well, I haven’t seen it.
Best to expend your mental and emotional energy on yourself.
It’s not your job to make him a better man either.

The perp programmes are better than nothing to reduce the risk I suppose but I’m not convinced.
I would do the Freedom Programme for yourself, contact Women’s Aid to see when the next one is on Zoom.
Honestly, I would save your mental energy and do some work and focus on yourself on why you feel you can change him, do you have rescuing behaviours etc, before wearing yourself out leading him to a place he has no interest in.
If he’s abusive, get out, he won’t change.

Have you actually discussed any of this with him? When you say he isn’t even considering it. Be very careful with what you discuss with him.

Ask yourself why you would want to put yourself through trying to change someone who you know to be abusive. Men who abuse women don’t change. You need to understand they enjoy the power.

I did some fundraising for a DV charity so I am not a counsellor but talking to the frontline workers in the refuge was an eye opener. It was in quite a small town and the same men’s names cropped up time and time again as they were abusive to various women. I think deep down many women think if I could just make him realise how much I love and care for him he would be good to me. It’s also very hard to admit you made a mistake but DV situations tend to simmer slowly and then when women marry and or get pregnant and is when the abuse starts or escalates.

What you have to realise is even if that man has had an awful example and it’s learned behaviour if you have children your children are also learning this behaviour.

Those are really helpful responses.
I just look back on the relationship and yes, this started when I had my first child. Seems so so odd to me, why that would happen.
It’s got increasingly worse, like a vicious cycle.
He messes up, I say something, it all kicks off and then each time I say something in the future, it’s like the reactions is worse. He tries to imply it’s my fault because I’m always nagging or I don’t let things go. But I don’t let things go because they haven’t gone. The pattern of behaviour is the same and I want that to change.

I do need to seek support. For some reason, I think I can fix it all. I beg sometimes for him to be nice to me. He just stares through me. I think he’s done so much damage that I question myself now and I do know that I don’t always act in the best ways. Why would I even consider asking Someone to say sorry to me. It’s madness and it isn’t who I am but I’ve become somebody that’s very needy and at one point I obsessed over what he thought of me and if I was enough to make him change. I am slowly waking up.

Their is just this little part of me that wants to hold on to the ‘good side’ and all the plans I have in my head for the future. It’s like I have to really let go of all of that and my whole life needs to change. And why!! For the sake of his pride. It irritates me that he can’t just fix this.
My eldest is 6 now and so I think I’ve waited long enough and I do need to accept their is no fix.
I suppose I wondered if anybody ever had seen a change. Change is possible right? If people want it!!! He clearly doesn’t want it!!

Even if he can change, you will always have the memories and really both of you need to start fresh with different partners (sorry if that sounds harsh).

This sounds like it isn't working for you.

(cross-posted with your latest post OP).

When i was on the program the facilitators made it very clear that they don't change. If they attend perpetrator program, the usual outcome is that the victim is still abused but in different ways and because the original form of abuse is no longer there it's easier to think he's changed and accept what you think is 'lesser' abuse.

I think even if he did change into this respectful person who cares for you consistently and genuinely, you will always know what he's capable of and you will still constantly change your behaviour to try and keep things ok. If there are any stressors in your life he will revert to type. If a person only has a calm side and an abusive side, the calm side in itself is a threat. How long will it last? You'll still be second guessing constantly. I'm still super sensitive to how people breathe because if my ex's breathing changed I knew he was getting angry, I had to placate him. That kind of hypervigilence is exhausting and it's incredibly hard to stop when you've been conditioned into thinking you are not safe, be that emotionally, mentally, physically, sexually or spiritually.

I thought my ex was emotionally intelligent, he was hurting etc. I was terrified that someone would upset him if we were out because when we got home I was the one to suffer. I really struggled because I could see where his behaviour came from. It doesn't make it ok. Abusive people think they have the right to use others to make themselves feel better, regardless of the fallout. They don't seek professional help because they don't think they are the problem. It's the people they are abusing who are letting them down.

People can choose their own behaviour. It's one of the things in life that we can control.

Abusers could change but they won't. There's nothing in it for them to change.

Being aggressive, bullying, abusive, sulking, passive aggressive, and so on works very well for them. They end up getting their way most of the time as people will back down or tip toe around them to avoid their wrath. Some enjoy it as it makes them feel powerful.

The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none.

Like father, like son. His father was and remains the same i.e abusive and a bully (btw are they still together?) so its of no real surprise that your H is abusive also. His father has not changed and his son your H is not going to change either. He does this also because it works for him. That is what he learnt about relationships when he was growing up; he learnt from his father how to abuse a woman. Your H hates women too, all of them. Women also are not rehab centres for badly raised men.

AM courses and the like are no answer to domestic violence which is what this also is. The success rate for such courses is extremely poor in any case, these men need years of therapy and not mere months. Even then they feel entitled to act as they do and do not see their behaviour as a problem. Its always someone else's fault and never theirs.

Pregnancy and birth are also flashpoints for abusers like your H to further up the power and control against their target, in this case you. As it stands you cannot protect your son either because he will further pick up on all this between his dad and you. He cannot grow up thinking that your model of a relationship you are both showing him is his norm too.

Abuse is about power and control and this man wants absolute over you and in turn your child. Its not about communication or a perceived lack of.

What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up?. What do you want to also teach your son about relationships here; currently he is seeing his dad abusing you as his mum. It is no model to be showing him.

Your 95% pretty perfect re him figure is absolutely wrong and besides which how did you arrive at such a figure anyway?. Its just a figure you've plucked out of thin air. Denial too is a powerful force.

The only way forward for you and your son is to divorce this man and he won't want to let go of you that easily. This is because he likes having you around to mistreat; he has indeed ground you down and further wreak your already weakened boundaries. The longer you remain with him for whatever reasons you come up with, the worse it will be for you and your son.

So...you would want to be with someone who deliberately chooses to hurt you? He isnt a dog op, he can go against his learnt behaviour because humans have higher thinking. He CHOOSES to abuse you. People become sociopaths/narcissists ect early on in childhood so you could argue that it is 'learned' but...it's also just who they are. If a trained therapist cant 'cure' sociopath, what makes you think you can? Why on earth would you want to try?

He is a horrible human being and he hates you. Look at his actions, would anyone who was a good person treat their worst enemy this way?

Why would you have someone like him anywhere near you?

What's wrong with being single instead? And maybe finding a good partner down the line, once you've healed?

You need to get help - for yourself. If you are suffering from codependency THAT can be worked through. You need to learn that your life jigsaw does not need some incompatable, nasty cunt to complete it. Especially one that wants to rip it up.

And if you have kids, they deserve to see their mother free and happy and not be raised to see women putting up with abuse as the norm.

I’m not worried about being single.
I’m worried about how it will change mine and the kids life. Which I know is stupid because I’m choosing misery with the view that maybe it would get better. When in reality I know it won’t.

One of the main issues is that I know he would struggle to find somewhere to live and support himself. I’d just about manage. It’s ridiculous that I’m worried about how he would cope, but I am.

@SunflowerSu

I’m not worried about being single. I’m worried about how it will change mine and the kids life. Which I know is stupid because I’m choosing misery with the view that maybe it would get better. When in reality I know it won’t.

One of the main issues is that I know he would struggle to find somewhere to live and support himself. I’d just about manage. It’s ridiculous that I’m worried about how he would cope, but I am.

It reads as if you feel greater loyalty to him than you do to your children.

That's a shame as they didn't choose to be born into an abusive home.
No more than your husband did.
He has chosen to abuse you though.

You ARE choosing to put his housing needs ahead of what's clearly best for your children, just like he is choosing to abuse you.

The only ones that are without any choice are your poor innocent children whom will undoubtedly grow up damaged as a legacy of you staying.

They to may choose to abuse in their relationships.

Putting your children at the centre of what is best should be where you start IMO.

Give them the chance of different choices.

He seems aware. He’s 2 different people. All of his abusive behaviour comes out whenever he feels judged or ‘nagged’. Most of the time he is fine. But if he feels like he has been criticised in any way at all, he changes and acts like a total knob for days and days.

He doesn't do that to his boss or work colleagues, does he?

He gets a kick out of doing it to you. Understand that - he likes it and he knows exactly what he is doing. It makes him feel good. It is an enjoyable behaviour and he won't give it up.

Don't waste your life dreaming that you can change him.

One of the main issues is that I know he would struggle to find somewhere to live and support himself. I’d just about manage. It’s ridiculous that I’m worried about how he would cope, but I am.

This is so very, very usual in abused partners. You deaden how YOU feel and become hypersensitive to how they feel. It is a way of your mind coping with what is happening, so that you can still feel of value and worth to yourself as that caring person. It is also the weaker, bullied partner subjugating themselves to a bully in order to not be attacked.

Please find some compassion for yourself. You can just step away from that feeling, maybe for a couple of minutes today, a little longer tomorrow, and eventually you can let go of that burden of responsibility for your abuser altogether. That is when you will have reclaimed yourself.

Don't do what I did, which was to give him a final chance once he "finally realised" how he was treating me. Promised to change. I sacrificed so much of myself for him, then a couple weeks into his "new" personality he buggered off. Few weeks later he's in a serious relationship with someone else. Basically, leaving and starting fresh with someone who didn't know him and wasn't asking him to change his behaviour, was the easy option, so he took it.
I spend the best part of a year in devastation because of how disposable he made me feel, after all the sacrifices I'd made to my own mental wellbeing for his sake. Don't be like me. He won't change, leave with your head held high.

Don’t share the information with him. He’ll use it against you, to abuse you better.

Be very careful- you need to read Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft

Lundy will show you that this guy won’t ever change

Ever

Please lose that ‘hope’ of him being the man you want to be. He won’t ever be that person.

Been there done this, did therapy, did the freedom programme on line, went to group counselling, read books, posted lots and lots and lots at the time.

You can do this. You really. Can.

And I know that sounds defeatist... it’s not - honestly- I spent 10 years trying to convince my ex not to be nasty, I wasn’t even going so far as to fare to ask him to be nice.

He made my life a living hell. Quite literally

That’s where you end up.

Whatever chance you get to get out, grab it with both hands. Seize the chance to be happy and free and never look back.

I’m worried about how it will change mine and the kids life.

Within 3 days I noticed my son was happier, was blossoming and coming out of his (5yo) shell

In a week or 2 I started to stop feeling like the most monumental prick that had ever drawn a breath.

10 years on? Ex is still a prick.

I’m living a life you’d never believe in a million years. And I’m probably a lot older than you too!

I’m telling you this not to crow, but to show you that life begins when we leave our abuser

@MzHz how did your son take the news of dad leaving?

You know, I do think that I would be much happier without him. Once I get there. I think the initial change would be really hard for everyone. There is just so much to think about.

This is how it went, word for word:

Ds: is daddy coming back?
Me: no son, he won’t be coming back.
Ds thinks for a while

Ds: is it because daddy shouted at mummy

Me: yes son, it was

Ds: daddy shouted at mummy a lot.

Me: I know son, and it’s not right to shoot at people like that.

A while after he told me that the last thing he remembered was that there was shouting, a Big Bang (ex had thrown a dustpan brush which hit and dented the door) and then silence. He says he was really scared cos he thought I was dead.

We cried together and held each other

I said that was not a way for anyone to live and that we’d find a way to be ok

How old are your DC OP?

There is a lot to think about, but focus on one aspect of your life as a free person and hang on to it as if your life depends on it.

Which it does

We don’t want our kids growing up thinking this is a normal relationship!

we leave because of them, not stay because of them.

I would not be where I am today without mumsnet

So many have helped me - just by asking me how I am tbh! One of my dearest mumsnet friends is Anyfucker, she’s having a tough time herself atm, and all I want to do is find her and hug her- mumsnet an amazing place

Please lean and lean and lean and lean some more - when you’re stronger, you can give back. As I try to do.

We ALL want to see you out, free, happy, and living your best life.

Don’t let anyone or anything get in the way of a safe and happy future, ok?

You can do this. It’s going to take time, it’ll be very hard to find the courage etc, but you know what the deal is now, time to take your life back, protect your children and show them how wonderful life can be.

Hi OP how are you getting on?

I started doing the freedom programme online, but found that not all of the controlling traits applied, just say one or two from each category and not all categories rang true. But when I looked at the nice decent human being, he had hardly any of those traits. The whole thing confused me and made me feel that the course wasn't right for me, it just made me doubt myself more.
My Exdp wasn't their description of a bully, that put me off, so I stopped the course.

Anyway, now I still question myself as to wether he is right and I'm the one making a big deal of things and destroying the family because I'm ignoring him and have disengaged. He is calling me the bully!!

I might restart the course.

Anyway, I just wanted to check in and see how things are going.

I read this thread earlier

For those thinking of ending their marriages, I have this to share. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4174669-For-those-thinking-of-ending-their-marriages-I-have-this-to-share

I agree with all the PP, he won't change, all you can do is to break the cycle so your DC don't follow the same path