Chicken and egg? Which came first - I'm a bitch, he's a liar

[scaredsadandstuck]

My marriage with DH is so dysfunctional I barely know where to begin. We've been together for over 20 years as adults, but were childhood sweethearts way back in what was a defining relationship for both of us I think. We have two school age kids.

I am a bitch to him I know - I'm cold, snappy, critical and withholding. I am afraid I am the 'bad' one in this marriage. I haven't always been this way though. We don't really talk about anything important, although we can just about get on but it's superficial. There's no screaming and shouting though.

He's got a lot of issues from his childhood that he hasn't addressed despite repeated pleas over the decades to get therapy. This has manifested itself as a fear of being abandoned, low self esteem and shame. He is scared of conflict with me and is easily deeply hurt. He can't bare any kind of criticism (although I admit I am critical). When we got together we were young and I suppose I didn't think about what these issues might mean in the long term. I probably, in all honesty found them almost attractive and exciting as my family was boringly average. I grew up in a family where we didn't need to believe we or each other were perfect to be lovable. We might argue, but we got over it and still loved each other.

Over the years he's done some things to betray my trust. In the distant past I have confronted him and spoken to him about how the seemingly small betrayals/deceptions erode trust and make me doubt him on bigger issues. He smoked 'behind my back' for years, and continues to vape in 'secret' (god knows why, it feels like he needs the secrecy I think), in the past I've found he'd been accessing some quite extreme porn etc. The absolute worst was he secretly filmed us have sex, which I believe went on for over a year or so. For some reason that I still don't understand I didn't properly confront him about it. When I found out I just told him I never wanted it to happen again. Literally that was the entire conversation. I can still see the devastation and shame on his face. I buried this for a long time, partly because we had little kids and partly because of the shock of it I think - I don't know. I spoke about it with a therapist who said it was possibly illegal and abusive which I found quite shocking all over again..... But I think if a man behaved in the way I can be towards him that would also be abusive.

So am I bitch because he's a liar? Or is he a liar because I'm a bitch?

In truth I want this marriage to be over. It feels so broken. But I can't bring myself to devastate him (or our kids). The worst possible thing for him would be to have a failed marriage.

He filmed you having sex without your knowledge? That's a criminal act, I think. I think this is over. Apportioning blame won't help you get out of this abusive marriage.

Honestly, it sounds like you are both in a bad place and not well suited to one another. I don’t think playing the blame game will help though especially if you think it can be turned around. This is a textbook case for both agreeing to non judgementally going into therapy if you both are there is a relationship worth saving. If you don’t both feel that way, I would call time on it in as amicable a way as possible.

I don't think it matters at this stage, I think you need to get out of the marriage full stop

*the secret filming is awful though, I would want to know what he'd done with those videos btw

What do you get out of this relationship now?.

I do not think your children will actually be at all devastated (and why use such a word at all?) if your marriage was to end. They have likely heard and seen far more than either of you care to realise. You cannot use the children at all as a reason to stay with him and they are not going to say "thanks mum" to you for doing that. They could well accuse you also of putting this man before them.

What do you want to teach them about relationships and just what are they learning here from the two of you?. What you're both showing them is a sham of a marriage mired in abuse of many different types. You've stated you wanted this marriage over so I would urge you to move on with your life without him in it day to day. You will likely thank yourself in years to come for doing that.

The most responsible thing you can do is end this marriage to stop your children from witnessing such an unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship. What you are modeling to them is going to impact the rest of their lives.

You've asked him to go to therapy over many years now and he has not wanted to do so. It was never your job either to rescue and or save him from his own self. Many people as well have poor childhoods and do not all choose to act as your H has done as a result; he actively chose to treat you as he did. Your children have picked up on all the antipathy and vibes, both spoken and unspoken, between you two.

He also filming you secretly is a crime for which people go to prison over. I would not wish to upset you further than you are already but its highly likely those films were loaded onto the internet.

Abuse can be perpetrated through making you feel like you're kicking a puppy.

It's an very effective (and calculated) way of abusing somebody because it's not as obvious as a black eye. The level of malice behind is the same.

I don't think you can really appreciate how horrible it is to be the child of a dysfunctional relationship. My parents raised myself and my three siblings in a war zone. I can count on one hand the happy,peaceful days from my childhood. The worst things was both parents would say to us "I would've left your mother/father if it weren't for you kids" Look into separating, or save for the psychiatry fees your children will need in the near future

The only thing that matters at this point is that you urgently need to exit this relationship.

Your children will experience emotions about their lives changing but you will provide clear information and emotional support so that they understand it's not their fault and doesn't change how much they are loved. Wringing your hands about them being "devastated" is unhelpful and excessive.

His emotions and his actions are his responsibility.

Things must be extremely bad for you to not have appreciated how deeply abusive filming you without your consent was.

What support do you need to make a plan to end the relationship? Have you taken legal advice yet? Looked at housing? Finances?

You're unkind to him and very critical, for a number of different reasons it seems to me. He's a weak liar. The marriage is not working. That's that sorted - no need to apportion blame, or identify who is more at fault.

The important thing is the marriage should end, as PP have said. I wonder if you can concentrate on trying to end it in a calm and kind, non-critical way so that the fallout for the DC (and you, and him) is minimised? Without a clear exit plan, this situation sounds like it has strong potential to escalate rather nastily.

Thanks for your honest responses - and for being firm but kind. I absolutely do not want to hurt our children (any further) and that it a huge motivating factor for me to do something.

Some of you have picked up on my use of devastated. I think I've used that word because DH (H) has given me the impression that his own family splitting up - twice - has devastated him. I still see the fall out of it for him and his siblings. But as others have said it doesn't have to be that way I suppose.

I cannot explain my reaction to the filming. Even though it was a few years back I still feel shocked about it.

Yes I have looked in to some practical arrangements but really only to indulge a fantasy.

I just have a huge thing that I can't be the one to hurt him. He has always been clear that he is very afraid of being hurt by me. When our early-teen relationship ended (nearly 30 years ago!) it was me that did it. And when we were in our 20s I also instigated a break up which lasted a few months. Both times we got back together, I instigated it so I think I feel responsible somehow.

The best thing for your children is to handle this correctly - living in this environment is toxic for them and they are your priority.

You have spent years trying to save him but you cant

Hi op - you need to separate - it’s not healthy. Your children will be affected by the dynamics they witness.
You are not responsible for him.
Yes he had a dysfunctional childhood and he’s now a dysfunctional adult and parent.
He could have sought help but he choose not too - you too have a choice now - maybe your codependent? Not a criticism- look it up and see - can you access therapy for yourself?

He will survive. You will survive.

I survived the breakup of my co-dependent long term which started when he was 19 and me 22. 56 when when finished. Wish it had ended sooner.

Putting the kids first is showing them you can steer your own destiny and don't have to live in an imploding relationship. I would also suggest it will be making of him.

You missed out that he's a creep too.

He filmed you having sex for a year without your knowledge. This is beyond anything I would even consider forgiving. How could you trust him. And he's manipulated you into such a position that you couldn't even properly resolve it with him for fear of what?? What are you afraid of? He has you tied up every which way emotionally. You are cold and distant because he doesn't want you to be close and demonstrative. Being close means intimacy and trust, he doesn't want either of these things.

He has no respect for you. There is no relationship, well other than the abusive one he's locked you into.

You don't need to feel responsible for him. He's a big boy, capable of secretly filming you having sex for a whole year. He will have to cope and find his own way of coping. He is NOT your responsibility.

He has sexually abused you and is emotionally manipulative. You are verbally abusive in response. The worst thing to happen to your family isn't a divorce, it would be to stay together.
Do you really think your children are happier listening to their mother bitch and snap at their father constantly? You haven't created the situation by being a bitch, the situation has made you act like one.
You can't fix or be responsible for his issues. If he won't get help you need to split.

Liar came first but I would say that as I'm a bitch
Seriously though, I have asked the same.
Trust can be eroded slowly and when that person still hasn't realised that they are waylaying the inevitable and you will find out about x, y, z eventually and the fallout will be worse, it's the beginning of the end. They lie (and gaslight to a degree, blaming your likely reaction/judgement). You find out and think not again, wtaf.
The cycle continues until one day, you think nah, can't be doing this anymore, I'm done.
So yes - liar came first

I just have a huge thing that I can't be the one to hurt him. He has always been clear that he is very afraid of being hurt by me.

This is just ridiculous. Him being "clear" is him manipulating you. How you can stay with a man who illegally recorded you having sex is absolutely mind boggling. Your marriage is toxic and abusive, and your husband is a disgusting human being. He's also quite clever in making you believe that you are responsible for his emotional health. Take the blinders off, op.

You don’t trust him and I’m not surprised as he’s broken your trust spectacularly.
Resentment has crept in and there’s no going back.
There’s blame on both sides so it’s time to end this toxic relationship for both of your sakes.

You can't stay with with someone out of pity OP. You really can't, that's no way to live

If he was even half as concerned about hurting you as you are about hurting him he would never have recorded you the first time. Let alone repeatedly over an extended period of time.

Thanks all again. I appreciate the honesty and I hear what you are all saying loud and clear. I am worried though because the filming happend a good few years back so I feel like it's not really a valid reason to give him anymore - to have held on to this for so long but not addressed it. It feels like I had my chance and I can't bring it up again.

You can break up with someone at any time, for any reason. You don't just get one window of opportunity where it's 'allowed' and then when that passes you're stuck. I know it feels that way but I promise it's not true.

You've tried to make it work for years. He committed a crime in your home, repeatedly. Once would have been enough though for you to leave.

I'm so sorry you feel responsible for his mental health but you aren't. Please remember that.

His MH issues don't trump the ones he has caused for you. And staying with him when he's behaved so appallingly is simply enabling him not to seek help or behave better. This relationship is unhealthy, unhappy and at points have been criminal.

Your children need to know what a healthy relationship looks like in order to replicate one as adults themselves. If you can't leave for you then please leave for them.

I know this sounds trite but people break up every day, people get divorced every day. Children can be resilient if it's tackled healthily. Far better to break up and have your children living in a stable, calm household than it is to live in a toxic one displaying unhealthy relationship behaviours.

I know this sounds trite but people break up every day, people get divorced every day. “Children can be resilient if it's tackled healthily. Far better to break up and have your children living in a stable, calm household than it is to live in a toxic one displaying unhealthy relationship behaviours.”

This with bells on. Some of the most functional families I know involve separated parents who co-parent amicably and responsibly. Some of the most sorted people I know were raised by divorced parents who co-parented amicably. It sets a much better example to children than raising them in an destructive marriage.

I am worried though because the filming happend a good few years back so I feel like it's not really a valid reason to give him anymore - to have held on to this for so long but not addressed it. It feels like I had my chance and I can't bring it up again.

This is absurd and just an excuse not to leave this horrible marriage. There is no time line or expiration date for your feelings of betrayal and disgust. Loads of women decide to stay with a cheater and then years down the line realise they have never gotten over it and can't pretend anymore. I think you've been in a chasm of denial for ages over how horrible what your husband has done. You don't have to put up and shut up any longer. Think of your children if you can't manage to admit what's best for yourself. Your children deserve a happy home and a happy mum.