Family inverse snobbery

[theayeshaveit2021]

Anyone else feel they get digs from family because they’ve developed into their own person?

I’m a bit fed up with the subtle digs from some extended family about having “changed”. What they mean is that I used to be a rough and ready teenager and now I’m an educated woman in my late 30s, with a professional job. Of course I’ve changed, is anyone in their 30s and 40s the teenager they once were? They don’t say it as a compliment and subtly try to get me to admit I’m different now – it’s like they see it as a confession of wrongdoing.

They’re the sort of people who talk about people “forgetting themselves” just because they’ve worked hard to build a good life.

I grew up on a council estate, parents didn’t want to work, always money worries, drink and cigarettes were prioritised etc. Grandparents provided a lot of stability for me, now sadly dead. Most extended family were hardworking types but had low paid jobs - low paid factory work, cleaning etc, or some on benefits. The extended family are decent, hard working people. Most in council houses, some exercised right to buy but most continued to rent. But there is a nasty side that comes out from some family if anyone has “bettered” themselves.

Growing up I had a good relationship with the extended family and they were good to me in many ways but looking back there was certain behaviour that sticks out. They had a tendency to get too involved in other people's business and liked to keep people in line.
If anyone did anything to “better” themselves, it always seemed to go down badly. A couple of relatives married spouses with slightly better paid jobs and bought say a small 2 or 3 bed house in a private estate. Not grand, or expensive houses, but not on a council estate. In the local area property prices are low so there’s not a huge price difference between those sort of houses and the ex council houses. They were never snobby but were immediately treated as outsiders, like they were no longer part of the inner circle. Everyone was always looking for signs that they “thought they were better” and excuses were often found to treat them unkindly as a sort of passive aggressive excuse.

DH and I both came from working class backgrounds. We’ve both worked hard, made sacrifices, and saved to buy a good sized property in a nice area. We’re not rich but where we live is a world away from where we grew up. We’re fortunate for what we have, but we’ve earned everything we have the hard way. We don’t think we’re better than anybody and no one who knows us would say that we do. We don't speak down about the area we're from - in fact we're so careful about what we say because we know they're always looking for signs that we think we're better.

We’re a world away from being snobs. We’re not lavish and we don’t flaunt what we have. We’re savers, but it’s obvious that our world is now very different. My friends are mostly people I’ve met at university or through work, mostly form working class backgrounds. I have friends too who went to private school but would never mention this to family. I live in an area that’s so different to where my extended family live and where I grew up. They make remarks about this. If I mention friends, family will ask what they do and then groan if I say something like dentist, or accountant.

I’ve heard all the mean things the extended family has said about others behind their backs, ordinary people who’ve just worked hard to make themselves comfortable in life. It’s obvious from the subtle digs they make in my presence that they’re saying the same about me.

It’s hard, because I was once really close to these family members and they were good to me growing up. I’ve found that there’s a better dynamic if I keep my distance slightly and keep them on a bit of an information diet. If I get too close, or they know too much about what is going on in my life, it gives opportunity for digs. As a result I have fairly bland conversations with them, which means I’ve lost the closeness I had growing up.

It feels like by succeeding a bit in life I've had to lose my family, I accept it now but just wonder if others have experienced this?

It looks like you are looking down on them.

@MerryChristmasToYou I'm interested in what makes you say that?

Yes, I’ve experienced this. There is nothing you can do about it. Just try not to take it on board. You wanted a better life with financial security and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Do you have siblings?

I don't think she is Merry. How else is she going to explain the subtle and not so subtle ways that some family members behave?

One of my relatives had a similar situation OP. Their crime was to get a fairly dull job in local government and move out of area when a promotion opportunity came up. For decades afterwards this has been a source of 'banter' about relative forgetting their roots / forgetting where they came from.

Yes, definitely. I guess it's jealousy in the main and perhaps fear you will reject them? There's a lot of talk about social mobility and parents wanting their children to do better than them, but when it happens it sometimes appears they didn't want that in reality. I'm sure there are lots of parents and families who are genuinely proud of others' acheivements so it's not always like this, but it has happened to me too.

Yes my mother does this but it’s driven by her insecurity so I do tend to ignore it.

Op. I have experienced exactly the same. I don't see them now. But it's sad as genuinely, they can be so warm and would help anybody in a time of crisis. I always felt that I was a square peg in a round hole. It's just how it is.

We’ve both worked hard, made sacrifices, and saved to buy a good sized property in a nice area.

Sometimes people work hard but still don’t have much to show for it. My dad was a cab driver working 15 hours a day during the recession to make very high mortgage payments but he never owned the house in his lifetime.

My brother has fraudulently taken ownership of the house and DH and I never expected any help with purchasing our own home, yet some family members do think we should pay for everyone for every meal, outing etc.

I come from a large family with similar WC roots to yours (parents each 1 of four siblings; many cousins!). Some of us have gone to university and now work in professional roles, living in areas very different from where our (grand)parents grew up. Some stopped education at 16, remained in the (ex) council house estates and work NMW roles or claim benefits.

However, there is none of this 'who do they think they are' attitude. Instead, there is an acceptance that we have different skills, different expectations of life, different work ethics and different values. There's certainly no who do you think you are? attitudes - or nothing overt at least.

If they can't be happy for you then that says more about them than about you. If they groan when you mention a friend's job just ignore it. Though it really is quite rude of them to roll their eyes about someone because of their work.

I'm not from the UK so class stuff has always been puzzling for me, but it sounds like you and your partner are on the same page so I would concentrate on your life together, don't worry what extended family think. Mine certainly think all kinds of weird things about me (they are very religious, I am unmarried and live with my partner), but I just ignore tbh

Same.

I left my home town, went to university and then moved to a new town. First child to have done this, my 20 odd cousins are all still in home town.

I'm seen as a snob and a bit of a weirdo. I didn't like my life as a child. I wanted more, I wanted to travel, I wanted to work. Therefore I'm seen to have turned my nose up at them all. I also haven't had children and don't intend to.

I get this from my brother, you're definitely not the only one.
My mum and dad grew up on council estates and worked their socks off to buy the family home I grew up in. After they died their estate was split between me and my brother, and I bought him out because he wanted the money. He's moved into his girlfriend's council house (fine) but then, resigned from his job and started making sly digs about me, my job (civil servant) and money. Along with other things that really piss me off about him (he doesn't agree with me having "no kiddies" for example) I've gone no-contact, as I'm not having someone I've known all my life make snide digs when I'm just trying to have a decent standard of living.

Sometimes people work hard but still don’t have much to show for it

Very true.

I do get a bit of what you're experiencing, OP. I was the first to go to university in my family. Sometimes I get told they don't understand the "fancy words" I'm using. It doesn't feel good.

@stackemhigh

We’ve both worked hard, made sacrifices, and saved to buy a good sized property in a nice area.

Sometimes people work hard but still don’t have much to show for it. My dad was a cab driver working 15 hours a day during the recession to make very high mortgage payments but he never owned the house in his lifetime.

My brother has fraudulently taken ownership of the house and DH and I never expected any help with purchasing our own home, yet some family members do think we should pay for everyone for every meal, outing etc.

I know that there are many who work hard but still struggle financially. I recognise that it's not necessarily because I worked harder than others that I have managed to become financially secure. There are many who work themselves to the bone who are still struggling.

What I mean is that, I managed through school while living with alcoholic parents. To get through university I had to work full time while studying full time. When I graduated I worked 70 hours per week in a job that paid me for 35 hours at national minimum wage, to get the experience I needed to move up the career ladder. All whilst struggling to pay rent, bills etc.

The family I mention aren't all particularly hard up. Some of them have exercised the right to buy so have managed to own with small mortgages and a decent amount of disposable income, with two full time wages coming in.

I've no siblings, so talking of extended family.

I'm no contact with my parents, as is the extended family because of their drinking etc.

It seems that jealousy and xenophobia are driving their behaviour. Xenophobia as in that you are now "different" to them and do not share their worries/problems. There is nothing wrong with you wanting a better life for yourself.
I once read a very wise statement (by Andrew Matthew): "The best thing that you can do for the poor, is not to be one of them". I find it very true.

My in laws are like this....all of them. I've been NC for 10 years now, and whilst my career has progressed, my kids are grown, and everything is good...their mindset is still the same, and god forbid they should change for anyone

You just do you, and I don't mean that in a nasty way. You've worked so hard to get where you are, and to get what you have - don't let anyone try to spoil it.

Your original post also made me remember something - I was the first in my family to go to university, and my uncle made a comment about me being "up myself". Thirty years later he's boasting because his grandkids are going to university. It's not easy, but you just have to not rise to it.

I think the posters who say it's the difference they're uncomfortable with have hit the nail on the head.

I understand what motivates it, that it's about their insecurities etc, it just helps hearing others' experiences.

It's the constant tip toeing around that is difficult. I don't talk about anything that'll highlight the differences. But they ask questions and the answers provide opportunity for comment.

The worst was when DH and I moved from a flat to a house. I think it was assumed that we couldn't afford a house in our city and it was talked about as if we'd be in our small flat forever. We'd said that we were planning to move to a house in the future when we needed more space. When we bought a 4 bed detached house with a big garden it seemed to be a bit of a shock. That prompted lots of probing questions and after they gleaned the information it sort of became unacceptable to talk about. All at the same time as expecting me to have a high degree of interest in what is happening in their lives

I think you have encountered the 'Jante Law' written by Aksel Sandemose, a Norwegian/Danish author. The country I'm from people have to a far extend lived by this, they would never admit to it, but still.

It's a really nasty way to built society (keeping people in their place).

I'll just list the law here, but if you are interested it's worth looking up the dynamics it stems from.

You're not to think you are anything special
You're not to think you are as good as we are
You're not to think you are smarter than we are
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are
You're not to think you know more than we do
You're not to think you are more important than we are
You're not to think you are good at anything
You're not to laugh at us
You're not to think anyone cares about you
You're not to think you can teach us anything

theayeshaveit2021. I totally identify. It is really sad because, as pp and you have said, there was so much good and the people concerned had really helped me in a time of crisis.

Properly changed the course of my life when I was having real MH problems.

In my case, when it started I would bend over backwards to try to agree with them or what was being said, in order not to antagonise. Comments included "why don't you let them have television on all day?" about a parenting choice that I hadn't talked about but they could see. "Why can't they have a phone?" (At the age of 2 .. exaggerating but you get the drift.) On finding out we were having more than one holiday in a year "I don't know how you can be bothered .. all that packing .. will you actually get a break when you're there? ..I'd be staying at home .."
On finding out where I had shopped for clothes "you must be out of your mind.."

Choicest phrase is/was "some people forget their old arse" ..
Before this, when I had been vulnerable, there were no nasty comments or questions. My changed circumstances didn't bring out the best in them.

I know some people's minds work differently and they're very good at moving forward and shaking off negative comments. I'm not. I could look at it objectively and see why the comments were being made, but it still hurt, because they knew I needed and wanted the contact and it was almost as if they were testing to see how far they could go. It really was not as simple as "well they are horrible things to say, I would cut them out of your life". The way things panned out I found it so hurtful sometimes (real vitriol/anger could be spat out some of the time - say when we moved to a bigger house) that I had to start stepping back.

I don't think there is a straightforward answer .. relationships are complicated and some of the time there just isn't a solution .. you just have to muddle through as best you can. In all likelihood losing the closeness, but not through choice. It's sad.

Don't let the chips on other people's shoulders weigh you down!

My Dad was treated the same way. My Dad's mum wanted him to go down the pit, despite his grandad dying in a pit accident and his dad (my GF) being rescued from an accident that broke his back when a tunnel collapsed on him. He was one of four children and was the first in his village to go to grammar school (the first to be allowed to go - my GF fortunately made that decision) and the first to go to university.

My Dad's mum (we never felt like she was a GM) thought he had ideas above himself and should have been working from 16 like the rest of his siblings. We always had everything we needed when we were growing up, but not everything we wanted. My Dad had two jobs - he was a teacher and and also worked for the OU part-time to ensure he bought a house and provided for us all.

His family, with the exception of my GF who was proud of him 'escaping' the pit, thought he had forgotten his roots, yet he worked really hard all his life. He didn't forget his roots, he just prioirtised healthy living over going to the pub and didn't smoke. He taught us the value of things rather than the cost and gave us a good moral upbringing.

His mother never felt she could be proud of him, partly because she didn't control his life.

Unfortunate as it is, it works both ways throughout our class system. I look down on him whilst he looks down on him. Some of us break out and can educate and better our ourselves. Many just settle for their lot in life. You can't regress to their way of thinking and they in their naive ignorance and jealousy will only seek to hold you back. Better to be a free thinker rather than be told what to think.

strudsespark that is really interesting. I'm definitely going to look it up; recognise the mentality absolutely. My family heritage isn't Scandi but not a million miles away. I thought it sprang from a different culture.

It's probably universal though, I would imagine. To do with human nature rather than one part of the world.

My fathers family is like this, it’s really sad as they are all clever but the unfortunate family dynamic at the time meant that they do not have the tools to help themselves. My father has a different sort of personality, and crucially much more confidence than they have. All they see is the results of his incredible hard work, but they don’t see the sacrifices he made and ignore the health problems he developed as a result, that they don’t have because their lives, although poor have been stress free compared to his. I think we all have our own struggles and don’t tend to see others.