I hate what hes doing to our 14 year old daughter

[inthedarkx]

My ex (who was abusive in our marriage) had his contact day today with our children. No overnight tonight just for the afternoon. It went badly, and has impacted on me and the children tonight. I don't have contact with him unless its via message and child related, he picks them up at the car park near me and drops them off there and doesnt come to my door as ive told him he must not so no face to face contact. hes moved on with a new woman that he left me for yet still wants info on my life.

In the past my children (apart from the 14 year old) have expressed that daddy sometimes asks them questions about me and my personal life and that they feel like they are in the middle and dont know what to say to him, so ive told them to respond with 'sorry we dont know anything daddy'
Ive also confronted him and asked him not to question the children unless it relates to them.

Tonight my 10 year old told me he took our 14 year old into the kitchen, closed the door and was whispering to our 14 year old in the kitchen, all my 10 year old heard was him saying 'hows mummy and her...' and thats all she heard as they started whispering. Now i confronted him and he said he was just questioning her on whether my shower had been fixed yet (shower broke before lockdown and due to virus landlord coudnt fix, kids told him about the broken shower previously even though we have baths instead)

He treats our 14 year old daughter like the golden child, asks her everything he needs to know and she obliges, makes our 13 year old daughter wash pots and vacuum but lets our 14 year old daughter relax. He bought her a phone and pays for it too, didnt do that with the others.

Our 14 year old comes home all smug saying daddy only asked about the shower and if i dont believe her and daddy then tough, saying she understands adult things now and i should stop treating her like a baby. Then said i wont tell you what he said because you will go back to your usual ways (this is a textbook sentence my ex used to say to me when he was emotionally abusing me) Hes still abusing me through our daughter because ive gone no contact with him.
She said our 10 year old is a 'cause troubler' and my ex even text me the same thing that out 10 year old is a cause troubler.

I dont know what to do, hes alienating her against me, and using her. I dont ask the children any questions about him. Hes given her an adult role. She calls me names now and everything. I went through her phone when she got back and shes deleted all messages from her to him and then when i look in her photo album shes screen shotted several conversations between me and her so i think shes done that and sent them to him. She will not tell me the truth on what hes been questioning her on or what shes been saying to him. Shes enjoying seeing me tormented! Shes 14!

Hes obviously loving the fact im being mentally tortured at the fact i dont know what hes asked her.

14 is a difficult age. Your daughter will be enjoying the attention from him and the sense of power he has given her.

He needs to be told that he has to stop - that you know what he is doing and how it affects your other children and she needs to realise that nothing she can do will affect you. Don't pay attention to her behaviour and above all don't discuss anything with her.

If you contact him, don't say a word to your children. This is not about them, it's about him feeling impotent and his efforts to disrupt your life are because he is an abuser unable to abuse you personally so he is doing it through your daughter. You have to stop him from affecting your life at home and don't let your children see how this is affecting you.

Agree with above.

I'm not telling you what Daddy said!!
Ok love, do you want chips with your pizza or waffles?

I think Blake is a cause troubler
Ok love, do you want to watch some telly beofre bed or put your music on

Literally let it seem to go over your head. Don't ask for details beyond "did you have a nice day? Are you hungry?" and if she's fishing to tell you, don't bite

However if she's being rude or nasty to you, that needs to be punished in however you usually would - loss of devices etc. If she threatens to love with Daddy tell her that would make you very sad and you'd miss her. Nothing else.

Alas how he treats them at his isn't something you can affect. 2nd may just decide she's not going any more in a few years.

14 year olds girls they've off dreams and being special. You must need to deflate it

@inthedarkx

Your ex husband obviously is a Arsehole.!

Op have you got a good support system around you then to turn to then?
So do not need to rely on your children's father so much.

I do feel for you,how his shitty /sly manipulative attitude is obviously getting you down.

@Anordinarymumyoy said above “he needs to be told” ... I used to hear this a lot about my abusive exh. “You need to tell him to stop drinking the grocery money”, “you need to tell him to stop being abusive”. It does not work like that, this is not because it slipped the mind of the op to tell her ex that he’s got to stop being an abuser!

No advice, but 14 can be very hard. I agree with not engaging with the milder forms of irritation from her.

Perhaps see if Women’s Aid has suggestions?

Read up on parental alienation.

They're both looking for attention from you, don't reward their behaviour by giving it to them. Pretend it's not happening.

I'd look into getting your daughter some counselling if you can, as an impartial opinion may help her to see what he's doing and she'll benefit from a safe place to discuss what must be a very confusing situation for her.

I'd be more concerned about the children in this situation.

Stop engaging with the spying! Your kids have way too much enfranchisement in this situation. Your ex sounds narcissistic. You need to go grey rock with him and with your kids when they are reporting to you about stuff that he mayhave said. You are spot on that he is continuing to abuse you by using his own children as flying monkeys. It's disgusting behaviour. BUT it's the kids who are most vulnerable in this situation. Your 14 year old will be incredibly conflicted and deep down really insecure. Your 13 year old will be feeling scapegoated. They need at least you not to engage with any of his manipulation.

I agree with above. Your best weapon is to not engage. You also need external professional help because 14 is an age of easy manipulation and while I'm sure he can turn her completly against you I dare say he wouldn't want her to live with him full time so she may end up an emotional mess.

If your 14 year wants to act like an adult then she needs to stop calling her dad 'daddy' for starters

I absolutely understand why you have decided to go NC with your abuser but unfortunately he’s making your children suffer by treating them differently. Despite what your eldest feels, she is suffering as well because she only has the golden child spot if she complies. He’s possibly chosen her because she is the most easily manipulated or most needy. He’s looking for a reaction from you so I would be trying not to give one.

I am NC with my sibling. Part of this was when she was around 7 he and his wife started to treat my dd with contempt and it escalated to an unacceptable level. We went away with them and their child and several times during this trip, I had to take dd to the bedroom to talk about how they were treating her. I have had a lot of therapy btw and my therapist described adults, who hadn’t been taught by their parents how to be adults, as tall children. That they hadn’t learnt everyone in the world is equal and should be treated the same. So I talked to dd (7) using this very simplistic language, which resonated with her. Obviously being so little, I talked in terms that we as a family (daddy, she and I) know everyone is the same etc.

I love the the tall children analogy and wonder if it would be something you could discuss with your children if it resonates with you. I know that your eldest dd is 14 so it would be very different from my chats with dd. But if you could establish this thought process and use the analogy regularly, perhaps it could make a difference?

I absolutely wouldn’t use your ex in this. Perhaps you know someone and could do it if they come up in conversation. Maybe you could talk about Trump and the impeachment over dinner... he’s the ultimate tall child. He definitely doesn’t know how to be an adult, look at his behaviour and how he expects to be treated better than others etc. There is so much teaching from him - imagine being one of his wives... cheating... womanising and so forth. And you can make it obvious you chose to spend with people, who think the same as you. He’s a case study. You could talk about the Capitol riots, Qanon etc. CNN is an easy source of info. The coverage of the trial starts Tuesday, there is an undercover report from inside a Qanon meeting being broadcast atm. There’s also plenty of mileage to be had in the tall children front from Boris Johnson. Your DD’s are perhaps at risk from meeting vile men (presuming they’re hetero) and accepting their behaviour as it is familiar so talking about it will help protect them.

I was the scapegoat in my family btw, sibling the golden child. I think if you try to weave equality in your home life whenever possible and not using your ex as the example, perhaps this will sew the seed in your children’s mind and maybe they will start to question if they actually want to go to the ex’s house. I know now this is what I needed as a child. The knowledge that I was actually a person in my own right, valuable, precious and special and not my mother’s clone.

Idk if you will easily get through to your 14 yo for now. She is being taught some very stupid lessons. She needs deprogramming, which will take time and he’s a very dumb tall child giving her loads of attention and she’s lapping it up. She’s at that age, where she probably thinks she know everything and wants to be an adult now and bypass the difficult and awkward growing up stages. But maybe her younger sisters will find a voice to counter hers if they don’t already and then be aligned with your goal of deprogramming her.... they also need deprogramming as well, of course.

Have you asked your 14 year old in a non emotional way how she feels on being treated like a princess and her younger sisters like Cinderella? Have you asked her how her sisters might feel? If you can actually make a connection with her, the answer may surprise you. I suspect she’s actually really scared.

If you can sew these seeds, maybe you could talk in terms of your ex being a tall child. It will get back to him for sure and infuriate him. But if you can establish well, he’s a tall child so he hasn’t learnt that bit of being an adult, there is no defence. And whatever he does or says, you can roll your eyes and say, ‘that’s because he’s a tall child’. Remember tall child is great because it’s not judgmental. It’s because he was never taught by his parents. That also doesn’t mean he’s a victim because as he is an adult, he always has the possibility to learn new lessons but just hasn’t done so yet.... I loved my therapist. She never judged anyone. I mean no one.

I also agree with Sleeping not to give your dd the reaction she is looking for. He’s teaching her what it is to be a narcissist and she is looking for narcissistic supply.

Cross post with a few people. To add, if you can afford therapy, definitely get it. A child psychologist, who works with teens, who can offer you and your girls family therapy maybe. Everyone is suffering. Especially your children.

@Mummyoflittledragon TY for stonkingly apt & insightful post.

Thank you .

I'm actually be really worried for your dd and worried there's something worse going on. If she's willing, I'd get her a counsellor so she has someone independent to speak to about what's going on. Don't react to what she's doing, just be consistent, tell her you love her and that you're always there for her, and that you're not in a war/competition with her father.

The "sorry daddy we don't know anything" was the wrong thing, imo, sorry. It puts them in an impossible situation where they're clearly covering. Let them feel free to say anything and that it's not a betrayal of you, and you're OK with it and will deal with whatever comes up.

Grey rock. Let the kids know minimal stuff. What they observe is different to what they are told. Distance yourself from this and you will feel empowered.

Love the 'tall child' analogy. There are an awful lot of adults that remain children nowadays it seems. I can't bear infantile adults but it seems to be a modern curse.

He has no control over you. She has no control over you. How he parents them is out of your control. You need to stop showing you care. Dont bother confronting either of them. Don't go through her phone looking for evidence. Don't ask any of them anything other than "Did you have fun?" Stop giving them attention. They love knowing they're getting under your skin.

Play the long game. Children are only children for a short time. They will grow up and remember this. Let them remember you as strong, loving and fair with how you treated them. They'll remember how he treated them. That will be his karma.

Don't contact him when they return home, he is looking for you to do this. He cannot get a reaction from you directly so he is doing it through the children. He wants you to tell him not to treat the 14 year old like a princess and the second child like a skivvy. He wants confirmation that he is doing something you don't like. I completely agree with Mummyoflittledragon he is a tall child. I also agree with everything she says.

You have to grey rock him and that means not reacting to what they tell you when they come home. Do not contact him. It is a power game which only works if you play.

Sometimes the oldest child is the one who doesn't see the situation for what it is, the younger ones already probably see the injustice. I would talk to the 14 year old about it. Not from a I can't believe your Father lets you but a how would talk about fairness. I am sure in your house you try to model that. Comment on it if you see it on a tv show so she can see that the situation at her Dad's is not the norm.

I too think your ex is trying for parental alienation. It's quite common, especially when the kids reach the age that they can make their own decisions on contact and where they want to live etc.

Your DD may well be scared of losing his love if she goes against him - but equally she may LOVE being treated as a "grown up" by him - that pinnacle of achievement that all young teens aim for! They feel they're grown up, so it's brilliant for them when someone treats them like one.

Grey rock is an excellent technique which you now need to employ against your DD as well as your ex, when she's behaving like this (not other times!)

And you need to tell your 10yo that of course she's not a troublemaker, and that the "tall child" is not reacting appropriately.

Stop asking your children what their father asks them about you. You're putting them in a very difficult position and showing that you still care that he knows anything about you - you're giving the manipulators an edge that they don't need to have. Of course you don't want him knowing anything about your life, but if you show you don't care if he knows, then he loses the power of knowing too. At the moment, it's all powerplay - and you are sadly feeding it by trying to stop it.

It's a terrible situation for all of you but the children will be the ones who get damaged by it now - your ex won't stop this, he will encourage it, so it's up to you to put a stop to it.

Tell her if she wants to be treated like an adult, then she can act like one! Starting from today, she cooks her own dinner and does all the dishwashing/clearing away. She will see you cooking dinner for yourself and your 13 year old, and soon drop the act.

@Cokie3, or she will feel abandoned and alone. If I were her mum (and I am actually in a similar situation), I would strive to create a secure, on-judgemental atmosphere so she would know it was safe to confide in me whenever she needed to.

Cokie3 She loves her dad and wants to please him, which he is aware of and exploiting. It's not spite, it's grooming. Punishments like these will further cement in her mind that he is right about OP and he's the one who truly loves her.

Really, the 14 yr old needs support and love she can rely on from her mum, not to be punished or rejected or grey rocked by her.

She's just a confused kid being manipulated by an adult man. Shit, he manipulated and abused op, an adult woman, for years, how the bloody hell do you expect a teen to manage him?!

Do not rise to anything she (or he) says, unless what she says is something you’d normally pull her up on. Stop trying to find out what’s happening- it’ll only fuel things. I’d also look into therapy for your children.

"Really, the 14 yr old needs support and love she can rely on from her mum, not to be punished or rejected or grey rocked by her."

The OP needs to grey rock ONLY the DD is trying to goad her, not other times. Grey rock is the only response when people are trying to goad other people, if they want the behaviour to fail in its objective (to get a rise out of them). At all other times, the OP needs to love support etc. her DD, yes. But not when she's indulging in goady behaviours learnt from her father.