Opinions please what is going on here?

[Confusedcrush]

Long sorry. Have nc and changed some details in the hope of not outing myself. I have been on my own with DC for a long time, and frankly didn't have much relationship experience before that, so I feel pretty clueless and unsure.

DC has specialist physio, and I'm confused about what (if anything) is going on between me and the therapist. Sometimes I think he's just friendly and gregarious, sometimes I think there's more. Therapist comes to our house to work, sometimes he comes an hour early to 'catch up' with me, will ask about DCs exercises but also talk about general stuff. He is often very chatty/kind of flirty in texts, eg banter about coming in disguiseduring lockdown so he's not stopped by the police got a bit edgy. He works across a big area as it's a niche kind of physio, so is often driving distances and a few times we've talked on the phone while he's driving and he's been a bit open - eg talking about doing stupid things when you're a teen ended up with him telling me his eldest DC was conceived when he was a teen and only exists because he was hoping the girl in question would give him a lift to a club, and one thing led to another and there's a DC. I mean, that's a bit familiar, isn't it?

There have been other things, one time DC had a bit of a breakthrough in physio and the therapist took him for a burger as a reward - when they gotback DC said next time can we get KFC, and therapist said 'yes but we'll bring it back for other DC and mum, so we can all eat as a family'. Another time DC asked him to stay for dinner, and he rang me from the car to say he would have done if he didn't have another appointment later. He messaged on xmas day to thank me/DC for his very unexciting, box of Quality Street-type xmas present. But then he goes quiet, after that nothing for 2 weeks til he messaged to book the next session. I don't know what to think, we can message back and forth even quite late at night, then nothing.

I'm not 100% whether he's attached or not - though if I was his partner I don't think I'd be happy with him having bantery messages with single women into the evenings and on weekends. I know he's got several DC from more than one relationship, youngest are teen/20s at least, oldest nearer my age - he's 15 years older thanme. I think 2 DC live with him, but he never talks about a partner, he never says 'we' always 'I' - I'm going camping at the weekend, I'm getting takeaway can't be bothered to cook. He's got a flat in a part of the country he often works, and I know he stays there alone as he's left from here before for a few days there. But he's got dogs so there must be someone at home with them while he's away, could be the DC I guess. I've tried fishing for info, eg asking if lockdown messed up his xmas plans, he said it meant he wouldn't see eldest DC and extended family.

I'm fully aware that I'm starved of adult company, he's basically the only adult who's come in our house for months, and I had no male interest way before that, so I sometimes think it's that I'm just lonely and reading too much into it. But then I think he seems genuinely to want to see or message me. I'm so confused! Please MNers who have more experience than me, opinions on this?

@MuckyPlucky

Hang on. You stated he was your son’s physio at first, but go on to describe him as a ‘therapist’ helping your son with some sort of emotional issue from early childhood. Apologies if I’ve misunderstood but is this guy a physiotherapist (accredited by the HCPC) or a psychological/talking therapist (accredited by BACP or similar)? I find your posts very contradictory and a bit weird/contrary/confused to be honest.

If you read again you will see that the OP also explained she had changed some key details to avoid being outed.

@MuckyPlucky

Without wanting to put myself or the patient in question- my area was acute psychiatry. The patient was admitted as acutely psychotic. Many delusional beliefs about her family. Family very enmeshed in her care/difficulties. Totally inappropriate for me to work therapeutically/clinically with her in that context as was friends with her son. People who are admitted under section have the right to not be treated by acquaintances as this can compromise their dignity and pose issues for recovery. My ward manager ensured we all stuck to this commonly-held principle and my Professional Code of Ethics reflects this.

*@sammylady37 I’m not sure why you’re so surprised. Do you work in psychiatry/psychology or are you a medical consultant? The key might be in the different fields we specialise in*

I’m a consultant psychiatrist, and have been in psychiatry over 20 years. And I can honestly say I’ve never heard of someone not treating a patient because they knew their son at school over a decade ago. I’ve worked with many psychiatric nurses and allied health professionals and the only times an issue like this has arisen has been when there was a close relationship eg actual family relationship or someone has actually known the patient themselves. I’ve treated family members of my colleagues, I’ve treated extended family members of existing patients, I’ve treated colleagues from the general hospital. Our code of ethics refers to not treating our own family members, friends, people we’re in a relationship with, not people we’ve never met but who are related to someone we once knew, and I’ve never encountered such an issue with any of the other staff members I’ve worked with either. Two of the community nurses working on my team live in the areas that they cover, so they inevitably know people from the local community, kids clubs, school, other things they’re involved in etc.

As I say, I’m not doubting you but I find it extraordinary that this degree of connection (or lack thereof) would be considered an issue and I wonder how it impacts on wider service delivery. As a team, we are very under-resourced and we’re lucky to have one psychologist and a half-time social worker... having to source others for various patients would be an impossible task if it were a frequent occurrence, which your post suggests it would be.

I’d love to see the wording of the code of ethics, if you didn’t mind? I’m not UK based but I’m not far away and I’d like to see the difference between the two codes. Also, when you say patients on section have the right not to be treated by someone they know, do you mean that as a general principle, a best practice ideal or is it actually enshrined in mental health legislation? Genuinely curious, not having a go, btw.

Another one saying report him to the HCPC. They will take a very dim view of his behaviour. He was crossed the professional boundary and sounds as if he is taking advantage of you. Due to the very close physical nature of our work we are carefully regulated by the HCPC, they protect the public, not us as professionals. We are not allowed to take patients out for lunch or speak to their relatives for personal chats outside work contact. You shouldn't know anything about his personal life, let alone how many women he has impregnated. We really don't want this in our profession.

He is Crossing the line. Unprofessional

I feel like I've accidentally derailed my own thread by trying to be vague about the nature of the work. It's like imagine a psychologist who does animal-assisted outdoor therapy, who is also a physio who does physical manipulation. It's not that, but it's that level of niche and he is qualified and regulated in more than one type of work. As PP said, there are professionals like social workers and youth workers who do see children on their own, take them out etc, that side of things is above board. It is me trying not to be specific which has led to concerns about this person being alone with my DC, and I'm sorry for that. And thanks to the poster who said I can't have learnt anything about grooming, having a colleague I liked and trusted turn out to be a child abuser who fooled and groomed us all is an experience which will never leave me, believe me on that.

In terms of this man's interactions with me, this thread has been what I needed and I very much appreciate posters telling me what I need to hear. This man single or not is not for me, and shouldn't be interacting with me the way he has. I will think about how to raise this with the social worker, both in terms of setting better boundaries with me but also bearing in mind how he might be behaving with other sad lonely single mums he meets via his work. I've got a teams meeting with her next week so I can have what I want to say straight for then. Thank you.

Report him to the HCPC. I’ve seen HCPs struck off for similar.

@Confusedcrush

I feel like I've accidentally derailed my own thread by trying to be vague about the nature of the work. It's like imagine a psychologist who does animal-assisted outdoor therapy, who is also a physio who does physical manipulation. It's not that, but it's that level of niche and he is qualified and regulated in more than one type of work. As PP said, there are professionals like social workers and youth workers who do see children on their own, take them out etc, that side of things is above board. It is me trying not to be specific which has led to concerns about this person being alone with my DC, and I'm sorry for that. And thanks to the poster who said I can't have learnt anything about grooming, having a colleague I liked and trusted turn out to be a child abuser who fooled and groomed us all is an experience which will never leave me, believe me on that.

In terms of this man's interactions with me, this thread has been what I needed and I very much appreciate posters telling me what I need to hear. This man single or not is not for me, and shouldn't be interacting with me the way he has. I will think about how to raise this with the social worker, both in terms of setting better boundaries with me but also bearing in mind how he might be behaving with other sad lonely single mums he meets via his work. I've got a teams meeting with her next week so I can have what I want to say straight for then. Thank you.

Well I understood. You did after all explain that you had changed details and followed up by saying he was not a physio. I'm afraid the level of comprehension in here is not very high and there is a also a persistent theme of blame and shame which does detract from progress.

It does sound as though he is attracted to you.

You are allowed to be attracted to him. I think though, do imagine starting a relationship and then how difficult it would be for your son particularly if you broke up.

Maybe, fantasy land here, maybe when he's finished working with your son, time has passed and say you felt attracted to him, that could be a time to get in touch with him and take it v slowly.

@sammylady37 It was the ward manager’s decision that where the named [insert profession] could be allocated elsewhere in the team, they should be. In my case this decision was taken (and I agreed with it) in order to avoid potential conflicts of interest during family therapy sessions and MDT’s involving the family. We were fortunate enough that there were three of [insert profession] covering the wards so it was simple enough for me not to have this patient assigned to my caseload. Obviously if I’d been the only [insert profession] or if I was a shift-worker who had to be on duty shifts and therefore the only person available in a crisis then I would have worked with this patient.

Hope that makes sense.

@sammylady37 I’d rather not be too explicit about my profession and it’s Code of Ethics as it’s outing. But my profession is an AHP and HCPC registered so v similar to the Physio in question’s Code of Ethics.

To bring it back to the OP’s thread- it’s absolutely the case that he is contravening our HCPC regs. Which makes him an unprofessional fool at best and a predatory individual at worst.

@Miramour - from your most recent message to the OP I’m wondering if you’ve maybe not read the whole fleet of us HCPC-registered health professionals who are all saying he has crossed a serious professional boundary and should be investigated / potentially prevented from practising? As a PP said: this is to protect the public. And as I’ve repeatedly said (but been largely ignored: it is grossly contravening our Code and therefore is a huge red flag that this so-called “professional” is acting in a way that could be exploitative and brings the profession into disrepute.

I think you should talk over his behaviour with your social worker, see what they think.

If you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing that - WHY not?

[quote MuckyPlucky]@Miramour - from your most recent message to the OP I’m wondering if you’ve maybe not read the whole fleet of us HCPC-registered health professionals who are all saying he has crossed a serious professional boundary and should be investigated / potentially prevented from practising? As a PP said: this is to protect the public. And as I’ve repeatedly said (but been largely ignored: it is grossly contravening our Code and therefore is a huge red flag that this so-called “professional” is acting in a way that could be exploitative and brings the profession into disrepute.[/quote]
OP, have you read all these? Do you think your case is the exception to all of the people who have said they understand the system but still think this is a safeguarding risk?

@Littlelapwing

I think you should talk over his behaviour with your social worker, see what they think.

If you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing that - WHY not?

This is a great shout.

OP, have you read all these

Yes I have, and I've said a few times now that I haven't written what job this person is doing, and therefore what professional body or code would apply. Its like, if I have a DC with dyspraxia but in my post I change that to autism, and get 12 autism experts telling me 'no no autism workers must never do that'. I keep trying to say, I haven't been straight about the kind of profession because it's so unusual, and how the work's happening is above board. I can see now how the messages etc with me are not ok, for any professional, but the job being done is being done within the guidelines of that job. I'm sorry my being unclear about the work has worried people.

And yes I've got a teams meeting with the social worker next week so I can talk to her about it then. I am reading replies and I appreciate them thank you.

@Confusedcrush you’re missing the point... what we’re all trying to say is that in any registered health or care profession he is crossing serious professional boundaries in terms of messaging you about anything other than your son. The fact he’s discussed his personal life, including who he’s accidentally impregnated etc, is breaking professional boundaries in ANY health/care profession. You keep going on about how niche and specialist this guy’s profession is. I’m not seeking to out you so you don’t need to detail what the profession is but just so you’re clear- I’m a mental health professional in a particular field. My family and friends comprise the following: family therapists, systemic therapists, paediatric psychologists, play specialists, paeds nurses, consultants, teachers, adolescent counsellors, occupational therapists, community nurses.... so trust me when I say there is zero profession (however “niche” you claim this bloke to be) where his conduct with you would be viewed as professional.

Hope that helps. Although you’ll believe what you want to believe.

I can see now how the messages etc with me are not ok, for any professional, but the job being done is being done within the guidelines of that job.

Sorry, I'm afraid the bit before the second comma and the bit after don't tally. Someone so clearly overstepping boundaries to the extent of telling you who he's got pregnant previously (?!) etc isn't someone you should want taking your son for a meal alone or being involved with your family any more.

You don't seem to get that his lack of boundaries makes him unsuitable as a care / support / health worker for your family and that while he may work in the guidelines for the literal job function, he is not being ethically appropriate. Those ethics are part of the guidelines of a job where patients/ service users can be vulnerable.

No I do see how his behaviour to me isn't okay. I'm a bit embarrassed I needed MN to point it out, but I did because that's why I posted, to get outside opinions on it. I felt like posters were telling me I wasn't protecting my DC by letting him be alone with him etc, and I was trying to explain that that is allowed in this situation. I'm not trying to say messages etc to me haven't crossed boundaries, I do see that now, I got a bit prickly because I felt like I was being told I'm ignoring safeguarding of my DC and I wasn't getting across that I'm not.

I am seeing this person's behaviour to me now - seeing a single mum missing adult company and taking advantage of that whether to exploit or to massage his ego or for kicks or whatever, it's not fun to recognise it but there it is. He messaged me today to make the next appointment and asked if he should come early before DC are out of school for a chat with me first, I said no but before this thread I'd have said yes, so thank you all who posted advice.

You are a great Mum in difficult circumstances.

You sensed something was off and you reached out for advice and have actively engaged and have made new choices / responses to the situation when he texted you today.

The only thing is to keep an open mind. You seem to be compartmentalising / separating the actions with your son and those with you.

This is likely an unconscious defensive through system because maybe one of the possibilities - that he is grooming you AND your son is too horrible to contemplate.

None of us know if that’s what’s going on here or if he is “just” an unprofessional creep hitting on and targeting vulnerable single mothers.

It won’t serve your son well to not keep an open mind about the former.

*thought

He messaged me today to make the next appointment and asked if he should come early before DC are out of school for a chat with me first

You need to report him, OP.

He's a creep OP, and you just aren't seeing it yet because we are in the middle of a pandemic, and he's an experienced creep. You will be shocked when you wake up and suddenly do see him for what he really is.

Why would he even tell you about all these children he has with other women but not tell you if he is single or not while flirting with you? Its dreadful.

Ok I do take the point, I've kind of been seeing it like you can be a sleazy chancer and still be good at your job, but it's about the person's character not just being able to do the task. It's really hard to think about ending the work with my DC, it took so much to get any help I don't wan to have to start again but I get that there's potentially worse things than that at stake here. I will tell everything to the social worker, I've got every message on my phone.

I wonder if you are feeling a little foolish and embarrassed as you have developed a crush on him so a little defensive and feeling a level of responsibility?

You should know that he has manipulated and groomed you and these techniques - giving attention etc work so your barriers are down even though inside you rightly identified feeling confused.

Anytime you feel confused or unsettled listen to that - pay attention and know that it’s your bodies alarm system shouting at you to stop, step back and investigate.

@Confusedcrush
"It's really hard to think about ending the work with my DC, it took so much to get any help I don't wan to have to start again..."

Sadly, I do suspect that he's well aware of this and it's made it easier for him to gradually erode those boundaries.

I think you've been focusing on the attention he's been giving to you as the potentially problematic behaviour but, as you start to step back, you'll no doubt see how his unacceptable behaviour has had a wider scope.

Taking your son for a burger = acceptable in the context of the work he's doing
Referring to himself, when speaking to your son, as being in the family unit = completely unacceptable and potentially damaging