How do you deal with gifts from LC grandparents?

[Crazythursday]

I've been LC with narc DM for 2 years now. Our relationship is pretty damaged and as it stands, I can't see a way it will change or improve. I am still caught up in FOG, but I understand all of that a lot more and can at least recognise and acknowledge it (via therapy).

Our LC consists of cards and presents at Christmas and birthdays, plus the odd random text throughout the year. We live very far away and what with covid, we see her in person very rarely...but I do tend to video on the kids' birthdays when they open presents from her.

It's birthday season here for us and we have received a box of presents for DC. It always makes me feel uneasy.

On the one hand, I can see love (or at least DM's version of it) in the gifts, paper, bows, cards chosen. I can see there is some thought that has gone into them, and that even if they aren't always things the kids would appreciate, she's tried.. And to be fair to her, she barely has any contact with the DC so how could she get it right? And I think that video-calling is the "right" thing to do so that DC can say thank you etc.

On the other hand, it's all weird. Receiving presents when we barely have a relationship feels odd. I don't like the idea of the kids accepting gifts from her when they barely speak to her and haven't known her for the last few years. Somehow it feels like it's teaching them to "take" but not to "give".

I would prefer it if we had a relationship where the kids felt a connection with her properly rather than via "stuff/gifts" twice a year - but at the same time, I don't trust her at all to not manipulate them, so there is no chance of me encouraging that connection.

But I can't tell her to stop sending presents - that just feels callous to her and to the kids. But this "love via material shit" just doesn't sit right.

DM has made a very light attempt to contact the kids directly (they are primary school age) during the last couple of years. I was furious that she wanted to go direct to them without fixing things with me first. And still feel like that is what needs to be done - she fixes things with me, rebuilds my trust, and then I may feel like its appropriate to get closer to the kids, but not before.

I think she knows that I feel obliged to call her to do presents.

Anyway, I'm waffling now... not sure there is an answer but I'm keen to hear how other people handle this time of year if you receive presents from LC relatives.

Your last sentence here was cut short.
She will harm your children in not too dissimilar ways as to how you’ve been harmed by her.

Protect your children op. Do not further
let your mother into your lives. It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissistic person this disordered of thinking.

.... I cannot cut her off more than I do right now. The relationship has fallen apart but can’t/won’t snip the final thread by which it’s hanging.

I get your points Atilla but it’s never that black and white in real life.

The only people that actually bother with narcissists like your mother are those who have received the special training i.e. the now adult children of same. You are still very much mired in your own fear obligation and guilt and that is keeping you very much trapped in this too.

You do not mention your dad at all here; is he still in your life?.

You are not dealing with an emotionally healthy person here and in such cases it is that black and white. She thinks she has done nothing wrong with regards to you and how you were treated as a child and now as an adult.

It will do you and your kids no favours at all going forward to remain in contact with her. Your children may well not notice yet that you as their mum are not acknowledged but they will do.

Also ask yourself whether you would tolerate this behaviour that your mother is doing here from a friend. I daresay you would not.

Have a read of the Out of the FOG website along with the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

I've read lots of books. I've looked at Out of the FOG too. And lots of experience as well.

I believe there is no definite "go to" solution applicable to all people in all situations.

NC is the right thing to do sometimes - and then it often feels "natural" reaction, like pulling back from a precipice. LC or VLC works well for people other times. I've done both, though I found NC easier in some ways - when driven to it. But I found LC sometimes worked practically. It depends. I do get what OP says that Life really isn't black and white.

Its good to remember the bottom line and take a strong stance when necessary. Clarity about "narcissists" has helped so many people on the internet. Yet everyone must make their own decision on this as there are different, sometimes very difficult, life circumstances for people.

OP sounds LC/VLC to me and if that works for her, good.

The only thing I would say though - is - it is a bit 'weirdly' disrespectful to your own self to put your kids on video and be ignored by your own mother at the same time. I wouldn't do it. But then again, sometimes we also sacrifice things for our children and also only you know the dynamics of this and what happened leading up to this. And perhaps you are happy with it and she is kept in her "box".

Also, I get the sense that this is a "negative" and strain for you on your children's birthdays and other celebrations, that you always have to "factor" in, which must be a joy-killer. But once again, only you know the wider issues at play.

You sound otherwise like you have a handle on it OP. Understandably you didn't go too much into the details leading up to LC. But sounds like LC is working for you right now. If you are not really seeing her or speaking to her apart from v. occasional video with your children, you are VLC. There must be a reason you are keeping the "thread" and that is your prerogative and the reasons for that you are probably clear about on some level. Its hard though, I've been there. Good luck going forward.

I also recommend two books (if you haven't read or heard of them).

1. Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents

1. You're Not Crazy Its Your Mother.

I had a couple of issues with the first book, too schematic. But both books are very good at identifying certain "behaviours", they are so predictable.

You do mention you would be happy if she "fixes" things with you first to build trust. Hmmm... I don't believe she would ever do that. She can't "build trust", its not in her make up. So you're left with ...

The problem is OP is that there is now a relationship of sorts as your dc actually asked to call her. They see her as the same as their other GPs and all about positive things like presents. They will be easier to contact direct as they get older and your mother may well manipulate this to cause trouble and get at you. And with all this back log of present giving and video calls, it will be hard to tell your dc then, suddenly, to be careful, to be wary.

You asked what others did - I am LC with my parents, and have gradually changed things over the last few years, and now I very politely make excuses to discourage gifts, I have in the past drawn the line at inappropriate gifts and send them back (eg I asked them to cancel a monthly mag they had ordered for dc without checking with me first again making excuses to try to grey rock it all). I thank by email. I don't always give the presents to my dc. The presents have never been great as they don't know my dc at all - this was their choice in the early days. My dc have an age appropriate idea of why I do not encourage gifts from them. They have other relatives who genuinely adore them (and adore me!) who send presents they love, and it is those relationships I encourage and want to endure. It is all about love!

It is difficult to know for sure if what we are doing is right, so I have just said what I do, it isn't advice as such as I dont know for sure what the best thing to do is.

@presentsgalore you make some very valid points.

DC wanted to call all GPs (there are 3 sets, and to answer @AttilaTheMeerkat’s question my parents divorced and remarried.. and my dad died a few years ago, we are still close to his wife who the kids consider a grandparent as much as their biological ones and we speak to her a few times a week).

The contact as the kids get older does bother me. I do not trust DM. I guess I’m hoping they’ll naturally feel less close to DM as they get older because we are not in touch with her frequently.

@RedSeal yes I agree that there is something odd/wrong about a video call where DM doesn’t engage with me. I do do it to keep her in the box.

But thinking this through a bit more deeply, perhaps I only do it because I can’t bear her to accuse me of withdrawing the kids from the relationship too... and that I’m concerned about them resenting me at a later stage for stopping the relationship because they won’t understand the dynamics.

I have said the odd thing about DM sometimes not being very nice, and that we don’t get along. Which I guess then is confusing for them if they then see funny engaging fun DGM on Skype.

I can see that it makes more sense to not call her so that their interactions with her are even more limited. But it does feel cruel too - that she’s gone to the effort of getting, wrapping, sending stuff and probably looks forward to the fact that she’ll get to speak to them then - and to withhold that from her too....

It’s all so complicated isn’t it.

CrazyThursday

If you do not trust your mother you do not have a relationship with her. As I have written before it is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist so I am not at all surprised you do not trust her.

It is a universal truth that people with NPD are poor at giving gifts. Remember that a person with NPD has little to no empathy with others and therefor have little chance of choosing something appropriate and welcome. To do so would require them to be able to imagine you as a separate person with your own valid interests and preferences, that just isn’t going to happen this side of Hell freezing over. When gifts are bestowed for birthdays or Christmas she struggles to buy them without a huge fuss, struggles to get them delivered without a huge fuss and what she does choose is weird if not outright insulting. They also use gifts to try and control children also. Gifts too should come with ribbons, not strings. Her gifts are loaded with obligation for your kids.

Your narcissist parent is now a narcissist grandparent. Your bringing new life into the world did not fundamentally change your abusive parent into a loving family member. But adult children of narcissists seem to show a natural affinity for believing in this work of fiction. We have always wanted our parent to be loving to us, and now we want our parent to be a loving grandparent. What we want and what we end up with are two very different things. Where we usually get tripped up is our failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances.

It is imperative to let yourself know that, without profound evidence to the contrary, your narcissist parent is a narcissist still. You must let yourself know for a fact that your parent can not be trusted with your most precious responsibility, your children.

You do not need her approval or her presents. Be completely honest with the children, you do them no favours by trying to cover up her misbehaviour. For them to properly recognise and deal with nasty behaviour themselves they need to see you respond appropriately. That means acting honestly and with integrity.

I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed your mother's nastiness in action then you can say more.

What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behavior; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

I agree with a lot of Attila says. I also understand that you feel guilt and pressure to not disappoint, and my only suggestions are

• write down what your DM did to you over the years when you were a child and imagine what an objective person would think of it. Every time I feel guilt I just think back to that and I feel resolute and guilt free.

• write down what you think you should tell your dc now about your DM, what you would really want them to know from your heart to their hearts and see if you can come up with the message you really want to give them now, and tweak it to make sure it is age appropriate. Also think about what you are explaining in a wider sense - helping them to understand that not all of their school friends will have a supportive home life. And see if that helps with deciding what to do and how to explain it.

It's very sad, isn't it, when close family see you as a means to an end rather than as an end in yourself. I'll never really understand it though I know it often is the sign of a fragile, controlling, non-coping individual. It's as if they aren't fully formed emotionally. And life is so short - they really should be valuing relationships and people. Ah well, it is what it is.

Yes I do actually remind myself a lot about how we got here. I re-read messages from her and re-read old posts on MN too (I name change a lot and your advice is very consistent @AttilaTheMeerkat!) and that definitely helps when I feel guilty about stuff.

Good advice te the children too. I like the idea of reframing it as a healthy thing. Though it feels manipulative too and I’ve never really thought to influence them so strongly, more to let turn fund their own way.

For Christmas we will open presents in all of a flurry super early so there was no time to call but here’s a thank you photo. Last year DM didn’t return my calls until late on Boxing Day despite me trying several times on Xmas Day.

Since then our text exchanges have been light. And a bit random. As in, she’ll start a conversation and I’ll reply and think maybe it’ll lead to her wanting to open the conversation to fix things, but then she just doesn’t reply, even if the chat has been quite open. Other times I’ll send a quick message and get half-liners back. It’s all very unpredictable. It bothers me less now. I’m used to it. And I understand why and how we got here. I’m just a bit unsure of what the rules of play going forward are.

I’m just a bit unsure of what the rules of play going forward are.

This stance and your recent update indicates to me that she is in control of this dynamic and therefore your emotions and agency.

You need to drop the rope to get your head out of her game.

Then look into yourself at your values which will then define how you live your life and what behaviours you will tolerate or reject. Once you know your own personal values the boundaries becomes clear.

The only sticking point (FOG) is that it is your mother and emotionally and socially we are conditioned to tolerate and endure too much......and that’s why it feels (and is) harder to manage.

The most important thing is that we are here to guide, protect and raise our children with good values. It’s important that we encourage them to sense difficult / dangerous people and learn to swerve / manage them and that life will be better when we do this and to fill our lives up with radiant people instead.

The most important thing is that we are here to guide, protect and raise our children with good values. It’s important that we encourage them to sense difficult / dangerous people and learn to swerve / manage them and that life will be better when we do this and to fill our lives up with radiant people instead.

Spot on Ssslou - this is precisely what I'm taking from my own situation

My children are older and ibahve now told them that their grand parent isn't a very nice person.
They asked why they hadn't seen them for a while so I didn't want to cover up with a lie. Not anymore.
Now if the grandparent does anything, I will say remember what I told you.
I did exactly what another poster said, I said I needed to protect them.
I left it open for any questions from them.
Op if you are in the feeling it is cruel to deny a video call, you are in the FOG. That takes a while to process.

My parents walked out after day 10 of a two week visit. I had to endure them not talking to each other and then me eventually. I called them out and they stormed out the door. My then 7 year old remarked to me: ' Your parents are very grumpy. The argument didn't start today, it started when they walked in the door'. Kids understand more than they let on.

I don't think you're children are probably that bothered about a granny they don't know very well. Its much easier with primary school children to cut ties or go more LC. They are so excited and busy with life. I suspect its just more routine-video-presents!! You could say you are not in much contact with your mother or fell out with her, and children usually accept the simple truths presented to them. If you do not want them in direct contact with her, then I would make sure they do not give any phone numbers to her etc. Your DC are very lucky they are surrounded by other loving family. It is not unusual for some relatives, including grandparents, to be more distant. Its "no loss" in your DC's case. Children follow their parents' lead when they trust them and know that they are clearly doing things for their benefit. And whats good for a loving mother is good for the family.

Re. your mum being "unpredictable" I found interesting. I thought another word might be "mind-games". Not answering the phone - my own narcissistic mother admitted doing that to keep other people on their toes and make keep ringing to get through. I suspect your mother was there at xmas day and boxing day, but decided to make you sweat and "work for it".

If you do want to keep a thread of a link, the only alternative to NC I believe is very clear and strong boundaries. Ring once on xmas day. If no response, a text will do. A card on birthday and leave it at that. But I have tried this myself and its hard, it all seems a bit fake and forced (just like them), and they know when you are keeping them at arm's length too so they are not satisfied with that either. I have no answer, I'm still looking for it myself. However, I would say, whilst your children are younger, this is a good time to sort your boundaries out; your DC will step in line and follow your lead.

P.S. And well done and credit to you for having the boundaries between your mother and DC that you have already put in place.

Your post rang so many bells OP.

I went NC with my mother (and the rest of my family who became flying monkeys) at the end of last year.

I hadn't quite realised that she was unable to give good presents. She used to ask me repeatedly to choose what she bought for my DC and I never understood why - now I do - she had no idea what to choose as she wasn't capable of actually thinking about someone else.

I went NC in the end because i knew if I left it any longer, my children would have their own phones in a few years, and then she could contact them directly.

As she is incredibly manipulative and spent a lot of time trying to undermine me and my parenting in front of my children, and played favourites, I realised I couldn't let it get that far.

So whilst I could have put up with her behaviour, as I'm a grown up, and used to it, and had lots of therapy - I wasn't prepared to subject my kids to her. She would have sabotaged me and my parenting choices if she didn't agree with them - and that's dangerous when you have rebellious teenagers.

She sent presents, and then cards which mentioned the presents, so if I didn't give the presents to the children they would know, as I couldn't see who the card was from (sent via moon pig, along with half my family).

Luckily we moved house this year, and so far she doesn't appear to have the new address. Nothing has turned up since she threatened to take me to court to get access to the children (and gave up once I made it clear I would fight her on it).

The present giving is the least of your worries if she has tried to contact the children directly, when they are still young.

I just told mine that she was often mean to me, and that I was worried that she would start being mean to them. She's barely been mentioned in the last year, and the kids seem resigned about it now.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do, I just thought that my experience might be helpful.

Busy few days, but I'm back again... Feeling a bit lost and confused.

We now have the xmas box of presents which has arrived. There are about 10 presents for each DC. I confess to peaking in the wrapping for some - they appear to be relatively small things (little card games, books, clothes) but it's still very OTT. In terms of quantity, it's more than DH and I have got - sounds petty like that that, but I know to kids that more = good.....

My sibling who is also NC with DM, plus DH both think I'm being a bit harsh. And that it's normal for a GP to want to spoil DC at Christmas and birthdays. This has thrown me. They are not fans of DM at all, so it's not like they would sympathise with her easily.

But I don't want all that stuff entering my house. It's put me on edge. We try to scale back a bit on birthdays and Christmas so that they gets don't get grabby, don't focus on material stuff, think about the environment etc etc and so that the house doesn't become cluttered with shite that goes largely unappreciated. I really dislike this time of year for that reason anyway - how ironic that DM is the one to do what I dislike the most. Or is that just that I dislike her and everything she does will get my goat? I don't want the kids to think she's amazing for sending all that stuff. I want to rehome some of it already but I would feel terrrrrrrible for doing that.

Do I set a boundary here and ask her to scale back for next time? I can't think that she will respond well to that tbh. I guess I need to only do that if I'm prepared for a huge text rage again.

@Sssloou this point: It’s important that we encourage them to sense difficult / dangerous people and learn to swerve / manage them and that life will be better when we do this and to fill our lives up with radiant people instead. is very important, thank you for highlighting this.

I have said the odd thing to the kids when they've asked about DM. I've said that she sometimes was a bit mean to me, and that we don't get on very well.

@CantSunny I do so hope the DC follow our lead. I think they already have a small sense, but I am fearful about her contacting them directly when they are older. And yes, I suspect exactly the same last year. And you are right about the minimal contact and how that is hard, and totally makes me see why NC is actually cleaner than LC.

@Jinglealltheway22 you sound incredibly strong, good for you :) DM wrote a letter to the kids last year. I was furious. No one else got it, they thought it was all just perfectly normal for a GM to write to her DGC.

Hate that time of year turns me into a quivering pathetic big girls blouse where I question everything, get bogged down with DM stuff and can't wait for it all to be over (until the next birthday).

And thank you all for understanding. This is quite a lonely place to be sometimes. DH has been with me through all of DM's antics over the years, but I guess he's not so well read on the topic of narc DMs as I am so doesn't always get it.

I'm sorry you've experienced similar too.

Christmas can be a trigger for all sorts of emotions when you have toxic family members.
It's ok to feel all that stuff that her box of presents has brought up.
Remember she's doing it for her, to make herself look good.
Keep posting if you need to keep sane.

Do get rid of all those "gifts" you've been sent by your mother by taking them all to a charity shop. Do not give them any more power. Do not at all acknowledge these in any way and maintain radio silence.

Gifts too should come with ribbons, not strings, and these items are stuffed full of obligation and guilt. She is trying to steal the hearts of her grandchildren by using such as bait to draw them further in towards "nice granny".

Do not bother with trying to set her boundaries; this will be further difficult for you to do anyway as you have been trained by her not to have any. She will also completely disregard any and all boundaries you care to set her. If you were to say to her oh please cut back on the presents then next year your kids will receive twice as many.

If you and your family truly want peace the way to do that is to have no contact whatsoever with your mother (and any and all of her attendant enablers).

Your DH never grew up within such a toxic family so does not really get all the underlying dysfunction that you grew up with and your sibling is basically trying to remain in favour with mother dearest. Your sibling certainly does not have your interests at heart here either so that person's opinion needs to be ignored.