Gaslighting and other stuff

[LaaaDaaaDeeeLaaaDaDaaaa]

I honestly don't know if I'm coming or going. First things first, I am no angel and I've done my fair share of bad things, which I generally am apologetic of, shameful and have felt guilty. The problem I am finding is my partner cannot seem to admit any flaws that he has, for years he would never say sorry, for years I was met with 'I don't want to talk about it', it has got better. As terrible as this sounds, and I hate saying it / typing it out loud but I find him fake. To other people he presents this lovely front, he is happy, friendly, laughs at your jokes, is animated and attentive, always talking and listening to your problems. I am not saying he is not any of these things but I find it an act sometimes and he has to be liked and I FEEL that he has to present this perfect representation of himself and can not handle not being liked or ever possible upsetting anyone in any way.

Every time I've tried to discuss something, somehow we always end up talking about me, my faults and the things I've done. I know I can do this too but even though I get defensive I do generally listen but I FEEL that the things I say are just dismissed.

He can say 'I am this and I am that' and I reflect and think about it. I say that 'he is this and that' and I never get any ackknowledgement of what we've talked about, it will just be a denial and then we're talking about my problems again.

I've got to a point whee I am thinking to myself that everything can't be my fault and it takes two to tango. I know I have issues and I'm doing my best to work on them (1 step forward, 2 steps back). Lately instead of questioning myself all the time I have decided to really keep track of things. I actually FEEL that my partner gaslights me, he is passive aggressive and retells what happens with untruths. Sorry if this is long but I'll try to give examples.

1. We were discussing something and I said something, within about 2 mins he repeated what I said and it had completely changed to suit his belief of narrative. he truly believed I said 'this' but I know that I didn't and I had to be firm and say at what point did I ever say that.

2. We argued last night. He was vile with me, not a problem, he was angry and I understood why even if I felt it was a bit unfair, we all get angry and frustrated. Today we ended up talking about it and he said that I shouted at he last night. Again, I know 100% that I didn't, I was proud of myself because I said a few things and walked away. I told him that the way he looked at me was horrible, not what he said or how he said it, but the look on his face. Next thing I know he said maybe you didn't shout at me but it was your face, your face said it all. I felt like once again things had been twisted back to me.

3. I do my fair share around here. I have supported him for the last 2 years whilst he studied. I did everything, food, school runs, dinner, cleaning and worked myself. Lately he is working away and has done for the last 3 weeks. This morning he woke up and said 'Kids, I'll bath you later before I go' I thought great, I'm holding the fort for the next 3 days. I ask him 3 hours before he leaves if he'll be bathing them and he freaks out and says I should do it, he is working for the next 3 days. My response was you said you were going to do it, his response was, you should have said you would do it. This happens all the time, he is a Martyr to his own cause, never asks for things, expects me to do it and then gets angry when I don't. I FEEL that all he had to do was say make sure you bath the kids later. I bath them all the time, sometimes I forget but 95% of the time I do and we take it in turns.

This is just a small list of grievances in the last few weeks, but I am coming (or think I am coming) to a realisation that this has maybe been happening for nearly 15 years and I've just always questioned everything and not been sure of myself. I don't want to blame her for all of my issues but I am starting to think think that it has contributed to a decline in my mental health. On top of having my own kids which I literally am there for ALL the time. I do a huge amount of stuff with them, but on top of that I have had to be there when he needs support (a lot), I have had to be the proxy between him and his ex wife who is extremely difficult, I have had to be there for him when he has had several serious undiagnosed illnesses over the years (a lot). I have helped raise his kids from another marriage who live with us, one of them is severely autistic, which has brought different challenges as the years have passed, the other one has been stealing from everyone in the house and his other house (ex wife) for 10 years. I am there to support all of this and I FEEL I am just expected to do it.

Sorry for the caps FEEL, I just want to iterate that I am not 100% sure, it's just how I feel.

Thanks for reading all of this (if you did)

@LargeProsecco Yes. Really struggling with that.

He's just asked my about some laundry/kids uniform as there was an issue today. I've just nodded and said okay to his suggestion but literally thinking this is what I am trying to sort out in the email but you won't respond.

I just want us to know where we are with it all so we can move forward. He's just chilling out and on his phone. So maddening. Literally don't think I'll get anything today either

Yes, that's the whole thing - you want to know where you are, have a reasonable conversation & work out a solution, like a normal-minded adult.

He doesn't - he wants to control you with inaction, stonewalling, etc.

So that you'll acquiesce & give up asking. And he wins, again. Has you right back where he wants you, doing all the domestic crap whilst he plays on his phone.

At best it's lazy & selfish. At worst, it's abusive.

And the realisation that you are being manipulated & controlled is bloody awful.

But once the scales fall from your eyes, and you see him for who he is - you can't come back from that.

OMG I have been here, they never answer you, as in answering they have to take some of the blame .
Just email your new wishes, and end it with just so we are in the same page this week.

@LargeProsecco We do share the stuff but I just want to make sure that we know exactly what we expect if each other so neither of us feel the other is not pulling wait. A clear and concise contract so that everything is harmonious. We'll see. I think I've just seen him access his emails, so we shall see what the evening brings.

Literally feel like being out everyday until I get a response, but that ain't possible 😀

Hi OP, I could have written a lot of your post and DH and I are now divorcing. I think the worst bit of this stage is second guessing myself which I'm working through with my counsellor who DH even said he ought to speak to so she could get a 'true version of events rather than the narrative I construct'. I've accepted that no matter what is true, we don't agree, so there is no point continuing with the marriage. I'm heartbroken but know I'll get through this no matter what lies ahead. I'm looking forward to closing a door on a house that there's no confusion, tension, or arguments in.

@mummmy2017 I think I am going to do what you say now. I'm going to wait until tomorrow evening and then just tell him my plans, what I expect and am going to do. Waiting until tomorrow will be hard having to look at him knowing nothing is forthcoming.

Thanks everyone.

@Fantasisa Sorry to hear that. I feel exactly the same. I had a conversation with him after our last big fight 4 weeks ago and I said with certainty that

'I think you gaslight me, you are passive aggressive and an unreliable narrator and no matter what you say, this is what I believe.'

First time I've ever said it and been so firm in 15 years. I still have doubts but something doesn't feel right and apart from waiting for response I feel more at peace already.

I don't want to split up and I know what I need to do IF this will ever work.

Good luck.

Wow, you are braver than me. If I said that to my DH he would shout the house down and storm off which would then be my fault. And yet he calls me the narcissist.

I don't want to split up either but for the first time ever I KNOW that I do not accept his version of events. I have started making notes of our rows as I found I would forget the details which makes it hard for me to defend myself later and reading back on them keeps the issues fresh in my mind. I recommend that you do the same, I wish I had started sooner.

@Fantasisa I will be walking away from anything that has a potential to turn into an argument and for the interim only listen to complaints and grievances via email. I'm happy to communicate but any potential arguments I will be cutting dead, that way it's all written down. I am actually excited to put this in place and I know I will regain my sanity. Can't speak for him but looking after myself now. Not going to give ANY ammunition.

@Fantasisa I might be brave but guess what happened. It gets turned back on me again and all the things I do and have done. Not anymore.

It is such a headfuck, just when I feel sure of myself I feel like he pulls the rug out from under me. He is very charismatic and convincing, my counsellor keeps telling me to trust my instincts. But even that is hard! I'm hoping that when we get through this awful next phase (splitting up during a pandemic is more even more challenging) that I will have the clarity I need and not just spend my time thinking about our happy memories.

@Fantasisa Good luck. When you have the space you'll be able to think better and clearer.

So. I got an email back at around 10pm Thursday night. I responded 20 mins later.

His email was fairly unemotional, I did ask him to respond to the things I had said and he responded in a fairly point like manner.

We're getting on. I'm not letting anything bother me.

I did send another email about an hour later saying that I don't want time apart, I don't want bus to be in separate bedrooms, I just don't want to argue and will be walking away if that happens. I said if you want to come back to the bedroom then come back, I won't ask what he wants to do. He had previously said he'd sleep elsewhere because the spare room will be occupied.

Lo and behold there is no response to that, no mention of it all day and we spent a lot of time chatting. I just stay upstairs with the kids and he goes off, I just say see you later. He has a bath, I go to bed and then he comes into the room to come to sleep. I say, what's up and he replies I'm coming to bed, you said I was allowed.

Anyway. I'm just starting to see a pattern in his behaviour. I feel he cannot be emotionally vulnerable, I have to be the one that is vulnerable all the time and I feel/think this has been the case for a long time. I felt it, but didn't believe it or understand it or even really see it. If I ever said anything I would be told I was talking nonesense and it's one of those things you can never prove.

He's not a bad person and neither am I, but I think emotionally he cannot be vulnerable. My family background isn't great but he definitely had an abusive father who had a wife that was afraid to say anything to him and is extremely anxious to this day. His dad left them without saying anything for 3 or 4 months and then just turned back up again as if nothing had happened. His mum's mum was committed at a young age too and she had a hard upbringing. His dad actually said to her mum just after they were married (honeymoon suite) 'You'll do as I say now' or something to that effect.

Now that I see what is going on, I feel I can navigate this all and make the right decisions and not be so confused all the time.

Again, thanks for listening, it has really helped.

It takes two to make a marriage and two to break a marriage.

All your language seems to point to the fact you are twisting yourself into knots trying to get this to work.

A few suggestions that really helped me:

Marriage/ relationship guidance counselling.

Some counselling yourself

Do The Freedom Programme.

I’m in similar place to @Fantasisa. Have called it quits on the 24 yr marriage and we’re splitting. Not easy, but having gone the list above, I realised another 20 years would kill me.

@ByeByeMissAmericanPie

It's strange you should say that, but probably not strange when you can look at things from afar. I have been thinking the same thing lately. Even in our current situation I feel it has been me thinking about how we can make this work i.e email communication and me walking away. Me realising that we can't communicate and this is a BIG part of our problem.

Done therapy myself and as a couple. It helps but cannot afford it unfortunately. If I were rich I would have a butler, a cleaner, a masseuse and a therapist.

Anyway. I feel completely at peace at the moment. He's not a bad person I've just realised that he/we cannot communicate at the moment and he doesn't want to be emotionally vulnerable, I think there is a lot of $hit there that hasn't been dealt with (same here) and he doesn't even know he's doing it and does not even want to think that he has any faults or issues. I'm much happier now that I feel I understand a little bit more about him and about me / what I need to do.

Good luck separating.

So.

I'd like some thoughts on this last conversation. Honest ones. If I am in the wrong, please let me know.

He is workign away for 3 days a week at the moment, 4 really as he travels early in the afternoon the day before.

Great, he's earning money and he seems to enjoy it. I just got a call trying to work things out about next week. He wants to do Wed,Thurs,Fri,Sat, Sun, Mon, Tue, Wed. He says he has to do this to get Mon,Tue,Wed. I don't understand that part. I need to basically answer on the spot.

I said, fine but it's not great. I have done the last 2 years whilst he studies and now I feel just as that has ended I am back into it, but even worse because he's not here.

Response : 'If you don't want me to work then just say so, I am working hard trying to earn money and you are trying to make me feel like shit.'

I said he was projecting and all I was doing was expressing how I felt, he thought I was trying to make him feel like shit.' Once again I am trying to defend myself. I feel like I am not allowed to have feelings.

I probably didn't need to mention the last 2 years, but that's how I feel. I feel like I've been holding the fort for a long time.

Ooh. I foot to mention he was thinking of working xmas day because it was good money. Not that he has to.

I can relate to what you've been saying like word for word. I was wondering how it ended or if you could message me to discuss any similarities

This was literally my life! Being told who and what I am as person and that I ‘don’t know what I’m like’. Twisting a situation and point blank lying about what I apparently said or did. Putting words in my mouth and claiming to know what I’m thinking. Telling me that I was the gaslighter. I was deeply affected by this because I’m naturally introspective and self-reflective… maybe he was right… maybe I didn’t know myself as well as I thought. Maybe I am a mega arsehole. Then I shaped up. I realised there was zero point in taking his shit to heart or trying to justify myself. I laughed in his face the next time he started lecturing me, about me, and told him to fuck off. I’m now as happy as a clam. Single and living with my beautiful boys who don’t have to be exposed to that bullshit. The Improvement in my self-esteem and general wellbeing has been exponential.