Gaslighting and other stuff

[LaaaDaaaDeeeLaaaDaDaaaa]

I honestly don't know if I'm coming or going. First things first, I am no angel and I've done my fair share of bad things, which I generally am apologetic of, shameful and have felt guilty. The problem I am finding is my partner cannot seem to admit any flaws that he has, for years he would never say sorry, for years I was met with 'I don't want to talk about it', it has got better. As terrible as this sounds, and I hate saying it / typing it out loud but I find him fake. To other people he presents this lovely front, he is happy, friendly, laughs at your jokes, is animated and attentive, always talking and listening to your problems. I am not saying he is not any of these things but I find it an act sometimes and he has to be liked and I FEEL that he has to present this perfect representation of himself and can not handle not being liked or ever possible upsetting anyone in any way.

Every time I've tried to discuss something, somehow we always end up talking about me, my faults and the things I've done. I know I can do this too but even though I get defensive I do generally listen but I FEEL that the things I say are just dismissed.

He can say 'I am this and I am that' and I reflect and think about it. I say that 'he is this and that' and I never get any ackknowledgement of what we've talked about, it will just be a denial and then we're talking about my problems again.

I've got to a point whee I am thinking to myself that everything can't be my fault and it takes two to tango. I know I have issues and I'm doing my best to work on them (1 step forward, 2 steps back). Lately instead of questioning myself all the time I have decided to really keep track of things. I actually FEEL that my partner gaslights me, he is passive aggressive and retells what happens with untruths. Sorry if this is long but I'll try to give examples.

1. We were discussing something and I said something, within about 2 mins he repeated what I said and it had completely changed to suit his belief of narrative. he truly believed I said 'this' but I know that I didn't and I had to be firm and say at what point did I ever say that.

2. We argued last night. He was vile with me, not a problem, he was angry and I understood why even if I felt it was a bit unfair, we all get angry and frustrated. Today we ended up talking about it and he said that I shouted at he last night. Again, I know 100% that I didn't, I was proud of myself because I said a few things and walked away. I told him that the way he looked at me was horrible, not what he said or how he said it, but the look on his face. Next thing I know he said maybe you didn't shout at me but it was your face, your face said it all. I felt like once again things had been twisted back to me.

3. I do my fair share around here. I have supported him for the last 2 years whilst he studied. I did everything, food, school runs, dinner, cleaning and worked myself. Lately he is working away and has done for the last 3 weeks. This morning he woke up and said 'Kids, I'll bath you later before I go' I thought great, I'm holding the fort for the next 3 days. I ask him 3 hours before he leaves if he'll be bathing them and he freaks out and says I should do it, he is working for the next 3 days. My response was you said you were going to do it, his response was, you should have said you would do it. This happens all the time, he is a Martyr to his own cause, never asks for things, expects me to do it and then gets angry when I don't. I FEEL that all he had to do was say make sure you bath the kids later. I bath them all the time, sometimes I forget but 95% of the time I do and we take it in turns.

This is just a small list of grievances in the last few weeks, but I am coming (or think I am coming) to a realisation that this has maybe been happening for nearly 15 years and I've just always questioned everything and not been sure of myself. I don't want to blame her for all of my issues but I am starting to think think that it has contributed to a decline in my mental health. On top of having my own kids which I literally am there for ALL the time. I do a huge amount of stuff with them, but on top of that I have had to be there when he needs support (a lot), I have had to be the proxy between him and his ex wife who is extremely difficult, I have had to be there for him when he has had several serious undiagnosed illnesses over the years (a lot). I have helped raise his kids from another marriage who live with us, one of them is severely autistic, which has brought different challenges as the years have passed, the other one has been stealing from everyone in the house and his other house (ex wife) for 10 years. I am there to support all of this and I FEEL I am just expected to do it.

Sorry for the caps FEEL, I just want to iterate that I am not 100% sure, it's just how I feel.

Thanks for reading all of this (if you did)

Again. I'm using this as a sounding board to get all my thoughts out.

So. Sitting here and realising & realising is such a painful thing to do. I don't think I've ever been happy or at least not for a long time. I think I've felt trapped for nearly 15 years. We met and a year later we had children, we never had the time to get to know each other or decide if we wanted to be with each other long term, we just had to do it.

Even though he, despite his flaws, is a good person, I know I've moaned, but we don't come here to give the positives.

We are very very different people, polar opposites and that's what's not working anymore. I think I've pretended for such a long time and I can't pretend anymore. My kids are growing up, I'm still young, I want to live my life the way I want to live it and not be told how I should be or how I should live.

@NiceandCalm Just a random thing/thought that came into my head. Not linked to a song, but now that I think about it, it does remind me of a song from the 90's but can't tel you what it is.

Starts with. La Da Dee, La Da Daaa, La Da Dee, La De Daaa. :-)

Crystal Waters with Homeless

Op I know it's upsetting but I think it's wise to see the gaslighting as a symptom rather than one big issue. Otherwise you're going to get caught up in who said what and when, and you're going to keep explaining and defending yourself against nonsense much to his delight.

I think gaslighting is really a form of goading and a way to seek conflict or attention from you. Of course you're going to want to react when someone says you've done something that you haven't but reacting by discussing his lies is giving him what he wants.

Why don't you tell him to stop lying, or shut up, or fuck off? I would. You don't have to prove how reasonable you are by keep admitting fault or listening to a character assassination. Gaslighters are often professional victimsand their targets are often reasonable fair people.

Stop these discussions with him. Stop trying to prove you're not the nasty person he claims you are. Shut him down, refuse to listen or engage. Tell him to fuck off or stop lying.

After that take your focus off his nonsense and look at the bigger picture. You're in a unhappy marriage and your husband wants conflict with you and won't take responsibility. What are you going to do about that?

Daft lies are the least of your problems, its a mistake to focus on this in the long run.

@Whatifitallgoesright - thank you! At least I have more words to go with my new ear worm now, lol.

Sorry OP - not making light of your issue.

I think you definitely need to go 'grey rock' with him and get your ducks in a row if you plan to separate.

@Ophelia2020 Literally this. I feel like I am constantly defending myself, constantly explaining myself. I'm just bored of it now. I was upset Sat morning and expressed how I felt, I understand he might not agree with me and defends himself of the things I've said. Next thing I know I am in a full blown discussion about all the things I've done or how I've made him feel. I learnt some new things about me that day, let me tell you.

This is where I'm at now. I'm just not going to enter into conversation about things that have a potential for an argument. It's pointless, there is absolutely no point in trying to get him to see that he has a part to play.

I've felt and expressed that he has wanted to goad me/get me to react for a long time now, so that he can then turn around and go 'see, see, look how you get.'

It's been good to write things down and get them out to know I'm not going mad. I actually can't beleive how much he twists things. Like I said, Sunday was the first time ever that I said to him 'You just lie.' in the past I would argue about what was said but without a tape recorder there is no proof.

OP I could have written this. My almost ex husband was just like this, always blaming everything on me, obviously nothing was ever his fault and like yours he had this persona that he faked with other people that he was kind and caring. He even worked for a church! Eventually he put me in a situation where for my own safety I wanted to call the police but I was so scared of his reaction that I couldn't. We are now almost divorced and whilst its the best thing I could have done, please listen to the previous poster about him escalating his behaviour. If you take back control of your own life and thoughts then his only option is to escalate to regain control. Mine started doing things like sending the police round claiming I'd hurt the kids in an attempt to take them off me etc. Stay strong through it, chin up and ignore it. Every behaviour he displays is for a purpose. Instead of spending energy arguing about the things he is gaslighting you about, try putting that energy into figuring out what the intention is behind this specific action/ wording hes used. Then when you've realised that its just to wind you up/distract you from what you actually want to focus on etc, then you can say to yourself "oh ok, that's what that was about. Now I'll get on with what I want to do". His only power is to inform you of his thoughts. What you do with them is down to you and you only. It takes a heck of a lot of practice but it is possible to learn to let his words go without even registering what they're saying. I'd really recommend CBT too, to help learn how to do that. Good luck in whatever you decide to do, and let me know if I can do anything to help

@Amie12345 I don't think it's fake, he is a decent person but I do find and have done for years that he has to have people like him so does all the right things to do that, it's hard to explain, maybe it's me being critical but it just doesn't feel authentic. It's something I've always felt.

I think you are right. After the whole bath situation I confronted him to once again have it turned, and I can't even remember how now, into how I shouted at him the previous night, low and behold I get frustrated and angry at him because it was a blatant lie (which I still can't believe he said) and once again I look like the unreasonable one.

I know what I have to do now. Whether he admits it or not I know he gaslights me, I don't know how long this has gone on or whether it's a recent thing or not but I am more alert to it now and I am telling him every step of the way, even if it is met with denial.

The next step is literally not engaging with him, defending myself all the time and just walking away from arguments. We shall see how that goes but I cannot keep going round in circles all the time, we are in a cycle which needs to be broken.

We shall see if he can accept his part in things or if everything will still be on me. All I can do is change my behaviour.

You are both getting very caught up in 'being right' and to be honest it gets you nowhere.
Instead try to think of what is the best way to behave with each other in the service of a valued life.
And please don't be shouting in front of the kids because you are teaching them about relationships every time there is an exchange between the two of you.

He is a people pleaser (hate that term as I am one myself!), he will kiss arses all around him in the moment, but it's not that it's 'lies' - it's just that he is compelled to agree and promise everyone nice stuff.
He's not even noticing what he is saying because his emotions are dictating it.
When he's leaving the kids all he's thinking is 'oh I must please the kids or they'll think I'm bad. I'll tell them I'll do the bath'.
The posting on Facebook 'I must post on Facebook so everyone thinks I'm a great Dad'. It's all about his self image. He only sees himself how he thinks others see him. That really prevents him from seeing other people's points of view. It also makes him hypersensitive to anything that relates to how he is perceived.
As soon as he sees anger in someone's face or the tone of their voice, he will go on the defensive and tell them how badly he himself is being treated. What you are getting is a reaction to your physical presentation, not the content of what you are saying.

What you have been doing is putting your own needs aside to the point where you have done everything yourself including taking over his part of your relationship with him.
You did absolutely everything for that birthday.

Did you ask him to do anything or did you just hope he'd notice and offer? In which case you and him are very alike, as he hopes you notice and offer as well!

You demanded Nothing. You provided Everything. You even do 90% of the sex. But you didn't notice that because.....well we are just in the dynamic and we don't notice.
At the time we do that because factors in our upbringing and natural instincts drive us to create homes and have kids.

It's only later on we wake up and see that we are doing all the work, and that we are what we could call 'over-supporting' the relationship as well.
I would suggest therapy for yourself if you can manage it. That will give you a space each week to discuss all this and get to know what you want and need and how to get it from people around you. As well as giving you another source of emotional support which will be a great resource. You sound like a great mother doing your best.

Be careful op, it's not unknown for these types to deliberately goad then sneakily record your frustrated reaction.

I would have no further discussions about him accepting his part in things. He's not going to, not because he's mentally ill or he doesn't understand but because invalidating someone who wants to be validated is a powerful position.

Consider why you need him to accept responsibility or validate what happened. It's only words after all, it wouldn't mean it was true. It wouldn't change the past or the current situation.

The only way to stop gaslighting is to stop complaining,discussing and reacting, which is what he wants .Or leave. It's quite clear he doesnt care what you think and his reactions are a punishment for you daring to bring things up.

Have you asked him why he doesn't leave considering you are so awful?

@sadie9 Thanks. I'm not sure if it's about being right, I think sometimes I want my feelings acknowledged and for him to say, you are right, I can do that or I'll look at that. As I said, for years in the start of the relationship he could never say sorry. The problem is this is something he will never admit too and thinks I am just trying to blame him, I have constantly admitted my faults but very rarely feel he can admit or see his or his own behaviour. That's all I am asking really, is an ackowledgement that sometimes we are both to blame. He may think it, but never says it.

I feel I do a huge amount with the kids, trying to inject fun into the house wherever I can. He hasn't been present for 2 years because of studying an intense course and now he is working away, not his fault I know. On my sons birthday I just wanted him to spend some time with him, I didn't ask him to do anything because I wanted to see what he would do. Childish I know but I needed to see it for myself.

Anyway. You are right though which is where I am now. I want a reset, a break from the fighting and the cyclical nature of everything, it is definitely taking its toll.

@Ophelia2020 That's exactly how I feel, I don't feel like my feelings are validated. Yes, this is my way forward now, not getting sucked into it and not reacting, it's going to be tough.

He doesn't want to leave the kids and financially we couldn't afford it.

I have never heard a description of someone more like my ex. He used to tell me what a terrible person I was for reacting to (and snapping at) his goady, vile ways. Ugh. And that is why he became an ex.
Good luck, OP.

He doesn't want to leave the kids and financially we couldn't afford it

Tricky I know but there is nearly always a way op. I don't buy he won't leave because of the kids. If he thought that much of them this wouldn't be going on. He doesn't sound very involved with them anyway.

Regardless of what happens I would now mirror his own behaviour back at him. I would flat out deny whatever fault or event he picked out, I simply wouldn't show him the courtesy of listening to him. Why have an arrangement where he is listened to and you are not.

Maybe when he feels invalidated, frustrated and silenced he might change his behaviour. The fact is he is still there because the majority of his needs are still being met. I'd figure out what those needs are and deliberately not meet them. He doesn't have a lot to lose at the moment.

@Ophelia2020 He's not that bad and I don't want to make him out as a monster, I am just frustrated at many things. He is involved although I do feel like I do more in certain ways with them.

I don't think playing games with him like that is a good idea and it will lead to a horrible situation for both of us.

I literally have to change my behaviour. Listen to him and basically just go 'Okay' and not get lured into an argument with him / get defensive. I'll see how that goes and observe his behaviour and see if that makes things better. I think I'll try to take the stance of not wanting to argue anymore and take lots of deep breaths.

So. I sent him an email on Tuesday while he was away. I said I think we need time apart as I can''t keep doing/going round in circles. We'll still have to live together and be civil, which we can be, especially if I emotionally detach slightly.

We've spent all day together chilling out now he's back and had a nice day, because I just refuse to engage or want to argue (not that he did too)

Anyway. I knew he was busy, he read the email, and I said I didn't expect a response as I know he would be busy all day and tired later. He got back late yesterday and went straight to bed. No problem.

I know I can be impatient and I am not going to react or seem bothered in any way, I'm just going to wait. I feel that it was an important email addressing what our epectations of each other were and how we are gong to navigate this, e.g kids and household stuff, so that we don't end up resentful that one of us is not pulling our weight, everything is clear and written down. Even though he had all day today and I know we spent it together, I feel like he could have taken a little bit of time out to reply in some way. It's a very emotional time, it was a very emotional email to him and I've got nothing back.

I've decided to go out tonight for a couple of hours so that way he is on his own and has time to himself. The kids went to bed at 8pm, so I left and it's now 1pm. I was hoping for something but at the end of the day I knew I would get nothing. If I dare ask why he hasn't responded I am pretty sure I will get this.

'I've been tired.'
'I've been busy.'
'I just wanted time to think about things.' e.t.c

That's fine by me, think about things, but at least acknowledge me.

---

I also sent a txt last week when he was away and expressed a lot of stuff that I'm feeling and even though he got back to me, briefly, he said he would respond in full later....Later never came and I've said nothing.

I'm startiing to understand/feel that I'm just not being validated and haven't been for a long time. It feels deliberate now. I know it's only been a day, but I also feel like it was something that was very important to respond to and he could have made the time.

I'll wait and see how long it takes him, I know I would have responded, it would have been the first thing on my mind. I'm just not going to react, I'm done with reacting.

Thanks for listening, if I didn't type it here, I'd probably freak out.

Op I think you misunderstood my last post.

I think you've set yourself up here. Sending texts and emails discussing sensitive issues is not emotionally detaching. Discussing these things via phone is not a good idea anyway and worse you have given him permission not to respond. All you really need to say is this is going to be the arrangement while we live together. If he doesn't agree he can bring it up with you.

Why have you spent the day with him if you want time apart? What were you hoping to achieve by going out until 1 am? I think I have an inking what you were hoping for because I've done things like that myself but ultimately it's upset you further.

You are now caught up in the distancer persuer cycle and that's not good.

I think people who don't actually like themselves much can take it out on their partner because, they can't walk away, no one else sees them being nasty, there isn't really a comeback to worry about. So they get to vent their frustration and anger without facing the real and difficult problem.
I did this myself, I realised with hindsight. I also struggled to say sorry.

You could try to have proper conversations about this - where you sit down with DCs in bed and take turns to talk and no one must walk away. This helped me and DH as if there is anger or shouting you still have to listen to the other's view. Seeing the others view of things was helpful.

But what helped me was thinking through separating. So I knew that I would have sufficient funds, what my options were, where I would live. It's then much easier to have a calm discussion, I wasn't desperate to change him as I realised I didn't have to stay, I could be absolutely honest whether he was upset or not because I had this option of leaving (or him leaving). So you could try the same OP and maybe speak to a solicitor, get a plan sorted out in your head, you can then be more dispassionate in any conversation or discussion.
We are still together btw.

Would recommend little shaman podcast - behaviours of toxic people

@Ophelia2020 I sent the text about 10 days ago at the height of all this and the email yesterday, which was not emotional at all it was pretty much business like and I laid out my expectations and offered him a chance to lay out his. Still waiting for a response, I'm sure I'll get one but have no doubt I'll have to wait. Pretty much expected that to happen, so no surprise there, just learning now not to react or get frustrated.

I went out last night as I needed to ask a friend a favour and I thought last night was as good a time as any, stayed out later then planned as we had a good night chatting.

I think when I say time apart I really mean no more arguing for me. I'm not going to defend or justify myself or explain anymore. I want us to carry on as normal for the kids and have some space from this cycle of crap behaviour / communication, whether or not we can learn to communicate in the future I don't know.

That to me is my emotional detatchment and what I need right now. I don't care what he is going to do, I'm just not going to engage in an argument any more there is no point,as I've said it will inevitable end up about what I've done wrong and before I know it I am defending myself,explaining e.t.c but I want us to get on for the kids and for our own sanity. No reason to be horrible to each other.

@Caeruleanblue There is absolutely no chance we can talk to each other. I've done it until I'm blue in the face and it does not work. We'd need a mediator or counsellor.

@Stonecrop Thanks.

Email on Tuesday morning, not yesterday.

Can I suggest you look up The Freedom Programme? It’s not much to buy it online and it may wake you up to other behaviours that are happening...

I’d go and see a solicitor to see where you’d stand if you split up. I found it really helpful, and although it was 3 years before I did actually leave, the information I walked away with having seen her, was invaluable.

Check out How He Gets Into Your Head and Why Does He Do That? And Wolf In Sheep's Clothing books

Read up on tactics used by passive aggressive and narassatic people. It'll help you stay calm when you can watch their manipulations. For believe me you are being manipulated by him. He's playing games. Time to step out of the game! Good luck

Still nothing. Sorry to bang in but this is helping to understand. He has laid in bed most of the morning not really doing much, we are in separate bedrooms. Again, I feel he has had plenty of time to respond. I even imagine he could say he just forgot and I have no way of proving that.

So the email I sen Tue morning contained the following.

Should we see other people, this isn’t a new thing we’ve been here before. I’ve always said I know I won’t, not interested. I’ve wanted a break for several months before, has said he couldn’t go that long without sex.

I talked about getting a cleaning Rota, having a day of each a month from the kids, lay ins on the weekend / taking turns but getting up by a certain time.

If I or he might be out late and wants the other to pick up the slack in the morning to be courteous and ask or send a txt if they know this to be the case.

I said I am no longer interested in arguing and will walk away. More than happy to respond to grievances but via email so we can calmly read and respond.

I said this cycle needs to be broken.

——

So, I feel it is pretty important to respond and can see no reason why I haven’t had one yet.

I’m just looking for explanations / stories where people have found the same thing happening. Again, I am no angel but I am starting to feel that that this is just normal. When I sent the txt 10 days ago, I knew I wouldn’t get a response and I knew this would also happen but am NOT going to get drawn in to asking why, which I know will lead to all kinds of excuses, frustrations and play straight into his hands.

I think I am also struggling to believe this is happening and maybe he is just taking time to think, but it doesn't seem like that, it just feels deliberate.

You are struggling with the reality that he is ignoring your needs, refusing to engage & is passively aggressively doing nothing to wind you up.

Mine did the same. It is a horrible realisation. I felt bewildered at the time. He was so "nice" on the surface when everything was going his way, but when challenged the nasty side came out.

It's the most awful realisation when you realise he is your silent enemy 💐