Are men really from Mars and women from Venus?

[firewalkeruk]

I am asking some questions which I feel have become an issue in another thread but which I feel lay outside the topic of body image but is related to Porn.
I wonder if there really is a difference between how women deal with self-satisfaction and how men do, apart from the obvious.
I understand there is a great debate to be had around the ethics of Pornography and the rights of women but I would like to set that aside and debate the attitudes of those who consider it toxic that men actually masturbate at all.
I wonder if there is a difference between a man using the visual stimulus of porn and a woman indulging while reading say Fifty Shades of Grey.
Is it really disgusting that anyone masturbate outside their sexual partnership or is it ok to indulge and if so how often?
Is it wrong for an older man to indulge or say for those who are involuntary celibate to do so?
Is it ok for one person to masturbate if a partner has a long term illness or a change of attitude towards sex?
These are some of the issues but not a definitive list.
Thoughts anyone?

"I wonder if there is a difference between a man using the visual stimulus of porn and a woman indulging while reading say Fifty Shades of Grey."

• yes there is a difference. I can't believe you are even asking. Fifty shades is a book, it's just words on paper, I won't go into the fact that it's poorly written shite, but it allows for your imagination to wander, I suppose, maybe..

Porn involves real people. What's happening on your screen has actually happened, it's not just "pixels" on a screen, those acts actually happened. Further, you cannot buy consent. Those actors are there for one thing and one thing only, to get paid. No one leaves until the scene is shot and that will involve a whole variety of specifics which may be painful and uncomfortable. I don't know why I'm getting dragged into this discussion.. I suppose because I have personal experience. My ex was addicted to porn. I completely lost him to it. It was his only love and the thing he spent all of his time on. I'm too tired to explain any further really. It's just a sad little habit.

"involuntarily celibate"

I think you’re over thinking it. People get off. It’s no big deal. As long as it’s nothing illegal or massively weird then what’s the biggie?

You say you want to leave the ethics of pornography out of the discussion re masturbation and self image.

Then you ask people to compare a man getting off on pornography to a woman getting off on the words in a book.

You're therefore comparing two examples in a ridiculous way as you've asked people to essentially set aside their opinion on one of them.

Many women don't approve of the objectification of women in pornography but don't object at all to anyone masturbating. They are two different subjects which yes often come together (pun intended) but you specifically said you want to set aside the ethics of porn in this discussion... then immediately mention it.

Can you try and explain again what you're asking, either including porn in the discussion (which will mean it's quite rightly debated in the responses) or taking porn out of the equation so people can 'set it aside' as uou asked?

I would like to set that aside and debate the attitudes of those who consider it toxic that men actually masturbate at all.

I don't know any women at all who think this. That's not to say there aren't any, but I have never know a woman who says that men wanking is toxic. Or that women wanking is toxic!

I think you're hearing what many women say about porn (that it's toxic) and projecting it onto the topic of masturbation as a whole...

OK so let's set aside produced adult films. As I said the ethics are questionable to say the least.
But generally speaking men ARE visually stimulated.
Is it OK to imagine the nape of some womans neck, anothers exposed thigh or someone's cleavage? Isn't this objectification even if these are glimpsed over a day.

Everyone imagines stuff while they are wanking, women too.

My only caveat to having an opinion on someone else's stimuli would be if I knew my partner was wanking while thinking about Carole in the office's thighs / the nape of my best friend's neck / my sister's cleavage having been aroused by 'glimpses' of women all day.

Using people we both know in real life as wank fodder would feel intrusive and I guess disrespectful. And show a real lack of any imagination!

That's people we know though. I'm sure everyone thinks about random body parts / experiences / feelings / sensations when they wank. And I don't think that is toxic at all.

As I said, I don't know any women at all who think that men wanking is toxic. I know plenty who think porn is. But not wanking.

Never written 'wanking' so much!

So taking the premise to it's logical conclusion, it isn't ok to use porn, it isn't OK to imagine your friends wives, female workmates or wife's family members, her friends or relations but radom imaginary images are OK.
Also it is wrong to objectify a woman in any way so you are only allowed to find anyone sexually attractive for their minds?
Even if you're in bed with someone reducing them to boobs etc is undesirable.
Is this what we have really come too? Is it a crime now for that young man from days gone by to become aroused by the underwear section of the Littlewoods catalogue?
What exactly is it that women want from men?

@firewalkeruk

So taking the premise to it's logical conclusion, it isn't ok to use porn, it isn't OK to imagine your friends wives, female workmates or wife's family members, her friends or relations but radom imaginary images are OK. Also it is wrong to objectify a woman in any way so you are only allowed to find anyone sexually attractive for their minds? Even if you're in bed with someone reducing them to boobs etc is undesirable. Is this what we have really come too? Is it a crime now for that young man from days gone by to become aroused by the underwear section of the Littlewoods catalogue? What exactly is it that women want from men?

Why would you be in bed with someone and be reducing them to just boobs? Aren't you kissing and touching and shagging them because you're attracted to them as a person? It's not objectifying to think your wife has incredible tits and tell her that. It is objectifying tell your wife you only like her for her tits and they are all you value. You seem to always be out to create a 'gotcha' moment that proves women just don't want men to have any sexual feelings ever. That isn't the case. My boyfriend and I have a brilliant sex life because we fancy each other, communicate well, have great chemistry, have fun together... I don't understand where he would objectify me in that process unless he only saw me as a sex object.

What exactly is it that women want from men?

All of your questions swing between extremes and jump to huge conclusions! For example - I don't know what 'women' want as we are individuals not one homogeneous mass.

But I can answer for myself only...

What I want from men in general - mutual respect and equality.

What I want from a man I am in a relationship with - mutual respect, equality and a happy, healthy, fun and monogamous sex life for both of us, possible only with someone you are sexually compatible with. All of which is mutual and equal.

@firewalkeruk debate the attitudes of those who consider it toxic that men actually masturbate at all.

Do people actually think this?

What exactly is it that women want from men?

We’d settle for you not being goady fuckers on Mumsnet if that’s an option?

[quote Faultymain5]**@firewalkeruk* debate the attitudes of those who consider it toxic that men actually masturbate at all.*

Do people actually think this?[/quote]
Nobody I've ever met!

What exactly is it that women want from men

To be regarded as something more than a useful hole is a good starting point. I mean, involuntarily celibate?

@Goldenomber, thanks for that.
I'll try and remember my place.

[quote firewalkeruk]@Goldenomber, thanks for that.
I'll try and remember my place.[/quote]
I've answered in good faith on this thread so am choosing to engage properly rather than assuming you're being deliberately goady. Hopefully I'm not wrong!

PickAChew, I know that the Intel tag triggers a bad image but there are both men and women who are in relationships with partners they love and care about but for one reason or another their partner can't or won't have sex. Therefore anyone can become celibate for a reason not of their choosing.

None of the women I know in real life have the same opinions on a lot of things that the majority of mumsnetters do. One of them being the general attitude to porn and masturbating. All my exes have watched porn, none have been addicted and it's never been a problem in our relationships. We watched it together, enjoyed acting out a lot of it. God forbid some women enjoy BDSM, anal etc. I watch porn myself sometimes if me and DP are working opposite shifts and I want a play 💁‍♀️.

@youvegottenminutes, I am not trying to be provocative or goady. I have maybe expressed myself incorrectly.
I do not think all women are the same in thought and deed and I do believe men and women are equal.
What I fail to understand is the attitude of some MNer's towards men and their glaring dislike for us. I understand people come here because they are experiencing problems with their OH especially men having problems with women but I get the impression that while there are some nasty dickheads out their quite a few MNer's then take that to mean everyman is a woman hating rapist just trying to beat them down.
All I was trying to establish was a general view towards what I suppose would be a double standard in the area of sexuality.

[quote firewalkeruk]@youvegottenminutes, I am not trying to be provocative or goady. I have maybe expressed myself incorrectly.
I do not think all women are the same in thought and deed and I do believe men and women are equal.
What I fail to understand is the attitude of some MNer's towards men and their glaring dislike for us. I understand people come here because they are experiencing problems with their OH especially men having problems with women but I get the impression that while there are some nasty dickheads out their quite a few MNer's then take that to mean everyman is a woman hating rapist just trying to beat them down.
All I was trying to establish was a general view towards what I suppose would be a double standard in the area of sexuality.[/quote]
Im not sure if you've taken on board my answers to your questions, as you seemed to just respond with sort of "ok, but..." then more questions trying to push my answers into the direction you saw them going.

Can you for example see in my previous post that when you asked if men are even allowed to 'objectify' their own partner in bed or if they now have to only be attracted to their mind, I pointed out that those two things aren't the only options available? That appreciating any part of a woman's body in bed with her, enjoying each other and shagging isn't objectifying her because it's a mutual, fun experience between two equal adults?

You jumped to accusing me of saying men should never objectify women, but the example you used isn't one of objectification at all. I think your thinking around womens attitude to sex is very muddled and you're ever so defensive (and sorry but seem quite cross) which means you aren't actually listening but rather waiting to try and catch people out. Just my observation.

Lots of dog-whistles for MRA nonsense.

What a load of self obsessed nonsense. This is why, OP. This is why.

lol ok here we go .
Ok nothing wrong with masterbating at all
I don’t see how age has any impact on that so it’s fine for old men of course
Is there a difference between a man using porn and a woman using fifty shades of grey ?
Imo yes unless the porn is ethically sourced which is VERY a hard to do . One will involve supporting an industry that degrades women whilst the other is simply reading a book . People in porn ARE people , characters in books are fictitious

And plenty of us love the men in our lives - partners, fathers, brothers, friends, colleagues...

I certainly do. Because they aren't the type to do things like your angry and frankly gross message on the other thread saying basically screw you angry lefty feminists im off to watch some lesbians tribbing on pornhub.

It's very hard to take seriously your proclamations of respect when you behave that way. I would be embarrassed if my partner ever said something like that (he wouldn't obviously).

To be honest, I'm shocked that considering you believe lots of women on MN have a negative perception of men, you choose to speak in a way that would only perpetuate that perception!

I’m not really understanding the point of this thread sorry . I thought you wanted to understand women’s thinking . I was assuming you’d want to understand why women would find porn an issue not talk about how often and of old men should masterbate . I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone here say they shouldn’t