Are men really from Mars and women from Venus?

[firewalkeruk]

I am asking some questions which I feel have become an issue in another thread but which I feel lay outside the topic of body image but is related to Porn.
I wonder if there really is a difference between how women deal with self-satisfaction and how men do, apart from the obvious.
I understand there is a great debate to be had around the ethics of Pornography and the rights of women but I would like to set that aside and debate the attitudes of those who consider it toxic that men actually masturbate at all.
I wonder if there is a difference between a man using the visual stimulus of porn and a woman indulging while reading say Fifty Shades of Grey.
Is it really disgusting that anyone masturbate outside their sexual partnership or is it ok to indulge and if so how often?
Is it wrong for an older man to indulge or say for those who are involuntary celibate to do so?
Is it ok for one person to masturbate if a partner has a long term illness or a change of attitude towards sex?
These are some of the issues but not a definitive list.
Thoughts anyone?

@youvegottenminuteslynn

You say you want to leave the ethics of pornography out of the discussion re masturbation and self image.

Then you ask people to compare a man getting off on pornography to a woman getting off on the words in a book.

You're therefore comparing two examples in a ridiculous way as you've asked people to essentially set aside their opinion on one of them.

Many women don't approve of the objectification of women in pornography but don't object at all to anyone masturbating. They are two different subjects which yes often come together (pun intended) but you specifically said you want to set aside the ethics of porn in this discussion... then immediately mention it.

Can you try and explain again what you're asking, either including porn in the discussion (which will mean it's quite rightly debated in the responses) or taking porn out of the equation so people can 'set it aside' as uou asked?

This You are once again negating women’s feelings on

As a woman, I'm tired of other people telling me how I masturbate.

I would like to say I also love many men in my life . Wonderful caring men who I respect and am grateful for everyday .
I wish firewalkeruk would stop labelling

OP: I want to talk about wanking but not about porn.

Me: Sure.

OP: Why can't men wank while they watch porn?

Me: You said this wasn't about porn?

OP: Ok I won't mention porn. So men can wank thinking about glimpses of women theyve seen during the day?

Me: Well I wouldn't like it if my partner was wanking thinking about my sister / mate / colleagues tbh.

OP: So I can't objectify women? Not even my wife? What about women in catalogues?

Me: Shockingly women don't like it when men objectify women. Also shockingly they do like it when their partner shows his attraction for them as a whole human being - tits, arse and mind included.

It's exhausting OP. You ask a question, get an answer, extrapolate a weird conclusion from the answer without acknowledging said answer and then launch into a new question designed to catch women like me out somehow when in fact I'm just answering honestly, not pursuing an agenda like you.

You sound ever such hard work and ever so angry!

@firewalkeruk
You say these things became an issue on the other thread but I did not see one woman including myself say men or women should not masterbate?

OK I'll try this one again.
I am old and set in my ways but am not so entrenched that I'm not willing to learn something.
I have 3 sons all with children of their own and my eldest already has two boys in or post puberty.
My grandchildren all have access to the Internet and I am very sure that they have already been exposed to Internet porn.
My sons were raised to respect women and my daughters inlaw are all very positive role models with great influence on their sons.
When my own boys were younger I sort off failed were it came to having 'the talk' with my boys. I explained the mechanical process to the eldest and he then told his brothers. I failed to cover any of the relationship parts and was too embarrassed to talk about emotional connections except to say that the couple should be in love before having a physical relationship.
Since then we have had a revolution in gender and sexual politics and not to mention political correctness.
So if I am a bit ham fisted about communicating it's not because I am trying to denigrate women or justify my own use of pornography. Basically I am trying to establish a point of reference to understand the world my grandchildren are growing up in.

@firewalkeruk

OK I'll try this one again. I am old and set in my ways but am not so entrenched that I'm not willing to learn something. I have 3 sons all with children of their own and my eldest already has two boys in or post puberty. My grandchildren all have access to the Internet and I am very sure that they have already been exposed to Internet porn. My sons were raised to respect women and my daughters inlaw are all very positive role models with great influence on their sons. When my own boys were younger I sort off failed were it came to having 'the talk' with my boys. I explained the mechanical process to the eldest and he then told his brothers. I failed to cover any of the relationship parts and was too embarrassed to talk about emotional connections except to say that the couple should be in love before having a physical relationship. Since then we have had a revolution in gender and sexual politics and not to mention political correctness. So if I am a bit ham fisted about communicating it's not because I am trying to denigrate women or justify my own use of pornography. Basically I am trying to establish a point of reference to understand the world my grandchildren are growing up in.

But a point of reference as regards what? As regards why women think men wanking is toxic? Which they don't. Or as regards whether objectifying women is ok? Which it isn't.

Sorry I genuinely don't understand what you're asking as posters like myself have answered your questions directly then when you haven't responded to them with real consideration you keep saying you're going to ask something different?

Are you asking how you should speak to your grandkids about sex and relationships in a healthy way?

Not to be too rude but you don't seem the best equipped person to do that as your thinking on this is muddled and does smack of consistently misogyny I'm afraid.

I know you've avoided responding re my post about your behaviour on the other thread (#tribbinggate2020 shall we call it) but I don't think you're in a great position to be teaching other people about healthy and respectful attitudes towards sex.

@youvegottenminuteslyn, OK my comment last night was crass and hardly my finest moment. I have already apologised for saying what I did and should not have let myself be triggered by certain posts and BrushandCombs dogged determination to prove that I am to her view distasteful and perverse. I guess I became defensive and as a result let myself down.

I really don't understand why anyone thinks fifty shades is equivalent to porn but it seems very common as a "gotcha" among certain types of men.
I think you have to be a bit thick to think written fiction is the same as actual sex.

[quote firewalkeruk]@youvegottenminuteslyn, OK my comment last night was crass and hardly my finest moment. I have already apologised for saying what I did and should not have let myself be triggered by certain posts and BrushandCombs dogged determination to prove that I am to her view distasteful and perverse. I guess I became defensive and as a result let myself down.[/quote]
Please take responsibility for yourself and do not blame me for your bad behaviour

The bottom line fire is that we disagree very much on pornography . There are believe it or not many many others out there who feel similar to me , just as there are many who agree with you .
That’s life .
You choose to respond how you did
That’s nothing to do with this thread . I’m genuinely confused about what you’re asking here as I think others other . ?

[quote firewalkeruk]@youvegottenminuteslyn, OK my comment last night was crass and hardly my finest moment. I have already apologised for saying what I did and should not have let myself be triggered by certain posts and BrushandCombs dogged determination to prove that I am to her view distasteful and perverse. I guess I became defensive and as a result let myself down.[/quote]
Sorry I think I might have to give up. I did try! But saying you allowed yourself to be 'triggered' by someone else instead of being an adult and taking responsibility is embarrassing. Especially as your reaction, which yes you apologised for, was really odd and shocking. And was a graphically sexual, angry response to women saying they didn't like your opinion. Your default was aggressive, sexual language when reaction to women who say they are uncomfortable with how sexually aggressive porn is.

Maybe have a real think about that instead of just paying lip service and then blaming someone else for 'triggering' you. I've managed to continue responding in an adult and calm way on here despite you triggering a lot of my feelings around misogyny, entitlement and lack of responsibility..!

Furthermore I am not intending to talk to my grandsons about their masturbatory habits but my sons do talk to me about the lives and parenthood issues sometimes I can give advice and I have never been one to second guess myself until now.

@firewalkeruk

Furthermore I am not intending to talk to my grandsons about their masturbatory habits but my sons do talk to me about the lives and parenthood issues sometimes I can give advice and I have never been one to second guess myself until now.

It's good you're second guessing but you don't seem receptive to taking on board other people's opinions or able to articulate what it is you are actually asking / would like other peoples opinions on. Until you can ask a question and then listen to the answer, there's not much learning to be done.

You know what I give up.
What is the constant need to quote me do you think I have memory issues or does it give some form of validation to quote what anyone can plainly read?
If the aim is to drive men off MN then you win. I will be deleting my account and all apps and notifications.
If MN is only welcoming to women and those who only share the values of the people who have hounded and belittled me for being a mere man then you are welcome to your validation echo chamber.
I on the otherhand am going to start listening to myself again, at least I can trust my own values.
Goodnight ladies and good luck.

Well that escalated. I would recommend some anger management as your reactions are not normal or proportionate.

Bye, I'm sure you'll find some tribbing to calm down to 👍🏻

Yes and I think that about summarises the issue ‘ladies ‘

@Brushandcomb

Yes and I think that about summarises the issue ‘ladies ‘

So much palpable anger isn't there? Must be exhausting.

Just to reiterate for the record, I don't hate men. I fucking love lots of men!

I love good, fun, reasonable kind men who are able to debate and be respectful even when we don't agree.

I don't like misogynists or sexists.

Pretty simple really... ladies

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Just to reiterate for the record, I don't hate men. I fucking love lots of men!

I love good, fun, reasonable kind men who are able to debate and be respectful even when we don't agree.

I don't like misogynists or sexists.

Pretty simple really... ladies

absolutely agree there

How odd.