Narcissist DF and terminally ill DM - any similar experiences?

[LillithTheLynx]

Sorry this is long, but this is v complicated shitty situation and I'm trying not to drip feed too much.

DM (65) is terminally ill with stage 4 cancer - still able to get about, but it has spread to her bones and she has 1-2 years max. She lives with my 'D'F (77) in an isolated part of the Uk.

DB (33) and I (29) both live and work in London, and have limited resources.

IMO DF has NPD. DM is a shell, and my brother and I struggle with forming healthy relationships, and I largely blame DF's domineering behaviour.

It's hard to explain, but it's almost like DF is not a real person. It's impossible to speak to him, as he has no interest in anyone else, beyond things that he can boast about to others. He's obsessed with his ex career (he was often out of work) and selective bits of history (Wars and how great the Empire was), and every topic is drawn back to those things within a couple of sentences.

He also says horrible personal things, and can sometimes be very threatening (has picked up kitchen knives during nasty arguments, although has only ever hit my DB) if anyone challenges him. My very normal XDH didn't get this at first, and got called a cunt during our second and last visit for disagreeing with him over types of engine.

After retiring early, DF spent thousands on his hobbies while DM slaved away working nights to cover the mortgage, unable to buy herself new clothes and still doing all the housework.

DF has also been cheating on my mother for years with people he meets on BDSM swinging sites. He made suggestive comments to me when I was a teenager, and I've seen sexual messages to his daughter from a previous mariage (not his bio daughter, but still). Despite this, he has Victorian expectations of everyone else's morality.

I gathered evidence of the cheating and showed it to my Mum in 2010. She chose to stay with him because she didn't want the 'fuss' and for financial reasons, though she didn't even consult a solicitor. I think the reality is he'd ground her down so much she couldn't see a way out.

I couldn't stand being around them anymore after all that, and as a result I've had very limited contact with DM until she got ill. I feel very guilty about that now.

DM is utterly miserable about how her life has turned out. She thought my father would die, and leave her to enjoy her retirement. Her pets and her sister also died just before her diagnosis, and she has no one - my father makes it impossible to have friends or visitors. DM's not been abroad for 30 years because DF didn't want to go. I promised to take her to her favourite country this year so that she could live life a bit, but obviously Covid has scuppered that plan.

While DM's been ill, DF has been doing his thing. He thinks everyone should be thanking him because he does one thing to help, driving DM to the hospital. DF thinks he's iller than her, and that DM 'exaggerates'. He told me that he is the one that is truly suffering because cancer patients 'get nasty' and 'take it out on their partners'. DM is still doing all the housework, and clearing up the messes he leaves in the toilet after she's had chemo.

Whenever she even mildly disagrees with this behaviour, he tells her she's 'abusive' and lacking empathy for him. He is still sexting with BDSM buddies. When DB and I visit, he creates a tense atmosphere, so we can't even enjoy spending time together.

DM understands this is emotional abuse, but she is frightened of what will happen she tries to do anything about it. She keeps saying its too late, and it is her punishment for not leaving decades ago. She's vaguely hinted about killing herself to escape, although I don't think she was serious and she'd never repeat to anyone else.

It's bad enough she's dying at this age, but this is awful. He's ruined her entire life.

I'm particularly worried about what's going to happen to her when she's very ill/dying, and he has complete control of her.

Does anyone think there is anything at all I can do to help her, or had similar experiences? I tried persuading her to move out last year (I could help with most of rent/mortgage as it is a very cheap area), but she didn't want the 'hassle'. I'm at a loss, and very selfishly tempted to just stay away so I don't have to see this play out.

I’m very sorry for your mother and the situation.

I don’t think anyone would be surprised if you completely cut ties with your F after her illness takes its course. Frankly, I don’t know what I would do in the meantime, if I were you.

I would not bother with either parent; they have both failed you here in different ways.

She had a choice here and she put him before her own self and you people. She chose to stay with him for her own (it could be argued selfish based) reasons; she indeed did not want the fuss and bother of separation. That along with financial reasons were more important to her than breaking free of her abuser.

There is nothing you can do to help either she or in particular your dad. It is no point trying to rescue and or save someone either who ultimately does not want to be saved. Stay away from them both and help your own self further heal from the damage they have inflicted on your sibling and you.

Thanks both. I can see your point about her choosing this for herself, but it is hard to see her end like this as she was a 'nice' Mum. When DF was away she played with DB and me like a normal family, before hiding under our beds when he got home. :(

Her parents were pretty liberal despite being born in the 1910s, and would've supported her when we were young. DF used to make endless rude comments about how common they both were, and drove her away from them too.

Definitely making no effort with DF once she's gone, although I do feel guilty about it. Also (and I know this sounds awful) both me and DB could really do with whatever littls money is left when he dies, and he'll probably try to stop that happening out of spite if we burn bridges completely.

I'm so sorry.

Would you be able to invite your dm to 'visit' and then accidentally on purpose she stays with you?

She may well have been a "nice" mum but her best was simply not good enough. She has also left you with damaging legacies of FOG because she thought of her financial situation along with not wanting to make a "fuss". It was a decision that has cost you and your sibling very dearly.

I would not ever count on receiving any money following his death in any event; he could all too easily burn through it all now and or has already left it to charity in a will. He has and continues to use money here as a means of control. Do not let that further control you.

Deal with any and all fear, obligation and guilt re your parents through therapy.

It reads to me that you still love her, despite her flaws. Do you have a spare room? What about having her come under the pretense of a visit and then convince her to stay on?

I understand about the inheritance, btw. My birth father ended up loaded after a lifetime of not paying a penny. I'd happily take his money off him when he finally dies - call it compensation for all the neglect - but I've accepted that it's unlikely to happen.

@TweeBree@Haffdonga I'm in a tiny 1 bed and DB is in a shared flat, so smuggling is a no go. Would be easier if I wasn't single and had some more support, but what can you do.

I could maybe move somewhere cheaper and ger a 2 bed, but I'm not sure I can deal with the upheaval. So I suppose I'm not willing to do anything, even though I do love her still. Plus DM might refuse to stay and the whole thing would be pointless.

Re money - DF screwed us over by spending money on himself to cultivate his self image and was unemployed for half the last 20 years of his working life. DM has worked in hard (not well paid or requiring a degree, so DF looks down on her) jobs since I started school, and it's her name on their mortgage. As far as I'm concerned it's her money, although ofc DF will inherit it and probably spend it on his gross 'hobbies'.

I can't understand how he gets away with it and why don't say 'fuck off, you failed, sad old pervert' every time he starts. I'm just as bad as DM - DB mentioned perhaps saying something to DF when he's on his deathbed, and I told him not to do it.

One thing you should definitely do is have a chat with social services. Explain your concerns, and they should be willing to step in and try to help because she is a vulnerable adult living with an abuser. You never know what they could do to help keep her safe and comfortable, but if you just walk away and do nothing (although understandable) you are leaving her in a dangerous situation.

Really sorry for you though OP, this is an awful situation for you all.

I am so sorry to hear this. I also have a long legacy of DV in my family, including a DM who chooses to stay.

Ultimately there is very little you can do. These are not your choices, but the outcomes aren't yours to feel guilty for either.

You might find it useful to get councilling yourself. And your DM might find either Women's Aid or Macmillan useful. If nothing else it might let her spend her final days in peace.

It all sounds so difficult, for you and for her.

Another option might be to look for respite services.

Very, very sadly some women used their local refuge for respite before going back to their home - would she find it easier to take a break rather than having to 'leave'?

Hopice care also offers respite services and support.

Can you see a solicitor? If she is terminally ill, can she not make her Will to leave her share of assets 50 % house etc to you and your DB? Once you see a solicitor (privately by yourself), if this is possible, you could approach your DM as to whether she wants to make or change her Will? He would never need to know.

I say this because I knew a couple where the wife died and everyone was surprised to hear she left her share of assets in her Will to her children, not her DH. I’m not sure though whether this was a true story.

OP, I can really empathise. I'm fairly sure my father had NPD (and like yours he spent happily on himself while spending years drifting from job to job with longish periods of unemployment until DM chivvied him back into work). He ground my lovely mother down, not through physical violence but through making her feel guilty about his miserable adolescence, bullying her, running her down, shouting and yelling. He looked down on her, on her family, on her friends. He tried the same in me but (due to DM's unflagging support) I got out.

And then she developed cancer and died in her early 60s, robbing her of at least a few peaceful years without him. I was in no position to help her get out. I feel very sad about it 30 years later.

Sorry, not much help. But you're not alone.

OP and Grumpy, I’m sorry I probably sounded a bit one-sided talking about the financial side. I just think if OPs mother had some self awareness now which seems so, she might want to try to put some things in order. It might also free up some ‘future’ money for her to be supported by you now. I won’t intrude further. It’s a very difficult situation. NPD and strong narcissism traits I believe are tough to deal in families, and you have my greatest sympathy OP.

@MinxyMay I'm not offended at all, please don't worry! I need to think about that a bit more really. I'm not sure I feel comfortable going to a solicitor to discuss it off my own bat. DM is worried about money and has tried (she gets a death in service lump sum, which I think she's now changed so it'll go to me and DB). Anything more, though, she worries about how my father will react - thinks that he'll go crazy and hurt me or my brother somehow by dredging up family secrets.

Sorry for double post - @GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman thank you very much for sharing, it made me feel better to know I'm not alone in this. I'm sorry about your poor Mum.

Re respite care/Women Aid etc. (and thanks all for the suggestions): how would these services react to me approaching them first? DM doesn't believe that anyone could help her. But she's lacking in confidence from so many years of zero normal social contact and has tried to pick up new things from me (I.e. how to go to the pub!). So, she might be more comfortable speaking to these services if I'd already started the process. But can imagine they'll be wary of interfering relatives?

I agree about approaching Social Services as your DM is a vulnerable adult. I'm sure most referrals to SS under this heading will be by 3rd parties, as the vulnerable person may not see themselves as vulnerable. So they wont bat an eyelid at you approaching them - that's what they are there for. You could also contact her GP to request a referral to the Macmillan nurses or similar who are a wonderful source of support in terminal care

You could encourage her to make a will which is a good thing anyway even if she wants to leave everything to your father - it will make things simpler.

You could also re-assure her about any fall-out after her death. Unless you and your DB are running a people smuggling ring / are into child pornography, what possible 'family secrets' could impact on you ? You'll be cutting contact.

May I also suggest you and your DB seek support to overcome your childhood experiences - whatever happens this will put you both in a better place

Thanks, OP.

I'd definitely take the advice of PP and see if you can get your DM some help.

Do you and your DB get on? It's terrible to lose your one functional parent before you feel you're ready and especially when the other is such an arse. It will make things easier if you can support each other.

@DPotter thanks for the advice. I think I'll give SS a ring on Monday and see what they have to say. Not sure what she thinks DF could do to us (we are definitely not criminals), but she keeps saying that she 'doesn't know what he's capable of'. One thing he could do is spread things about her sister/my aunt, who worked as an escourt during tough times. He told me and DB all about that one Christmas day, when I was about 8. I DGAF at all, but I don't think my cousins are aware.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman I do get on with DB. He was angry with me for going NC with our parents in previous years, but now understands why and feels exactly the same about DF and we rant about it on the phone together every few days. He's very immature though - like a teenager, really, and not very stable - so I feel like I'm the one who has to arrange things/be the support. That's another thing DF did - DB's teachers were convinced in primary school that he had some sort of SN (I guess ADD or similar), but my father stopped my mother from looking into getting a referral because he didn't want a mental son. It probably would have really helped him.

I do wish I could have some sort of counselling/therapy but I don't think NHS mental health services would help with something like this? I have a dear friend who was self-harming and had a suicide plan ready to go, but was turned away for free treatment by the mental health board because he wasn't going to do it immediately. So I doubt they'll help me! I've never asked my GP though.

Good idea to give SS a call. Maybe don't let your DM know before hand as she may try and persuade you not to and she'll get anxious about it.
Re your father spreading gossip - So what is your aunt was an escort? What's it to you? She did what she had to do to survive - good for her. Let him spread whatever he likes - doesn't sound like anyone would believe him anyway.

I understand NHS mental health services are not all they should be but please approach your GP - they may know of local support services run by volunteers. I'm of the school if you don't ask you definitely wont get so no harm in asking. Regarding your DB - all is not lost - many adults are diagnosed with ADD etc and can still benefit from support.

You can relax a bit now as there's a plan - ring SS on Monday and make an appointment with GP to ask for counselling / support. Suggest your DB does the same - maybe don't mention any possible SN but for support for the childhood trauma.

I do wish I could have some sort of counselling/therapy but I don't think NHS mental health services would help with something like this?
I honestly don't know. It would be worth asking your GP as services do seem to vary from place to place and time to time. The passage of time will make things easier, but I reckon I was in my 40s before I got past my father - and he'd been dead 10 yrs plus by then.

You might find more help and advice on the Stately Homes thread - these keep on going and are a source of support, help and advice for people who have grown up in toxic families. People there might also be able to suggest routes for your brother.

Have a virtual handhold. You are in a horrible situation and although you can possibly improve it you can't make it go away. None of it is your fault.

Hello

Your dads sounds exactly the same as mine.
Yes I think my dad is a narcissist too, I told my mum for years to leave but she didn’t.

Your mum would have been conditioned from a young age to be with a narcissist, she was probably emotional abused by her own parents and her dad could have also been a narcissist.

You can’t help people who don’t help themselves. The situation is out of your control. You can work on yourself by reading a self help book or going to therapy.

Awful situation OP.

I think it would help your mother a lot if she could try and take some control of the situation now (if possible) particularly with regard to money etc You have already mentioned her guilt about having done nothing years ago. Perhaps she can do a bit now to make amends

You said the mortgage is in her name? What about the deeds to the house? You can find out by looking at the land registry; It costs £3.00 to download the deeds.

www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry

It may be held as Joint tenants, or Tenants in Common, or just by your Mum. If it's Tin C, she could leave her share to her children, and stipulate that your DF has a life interest, and can stay in the house. If she is the only owner, she may be able to do that too.

www.beneficentlaw.co.uk/uploads/1/0/7/5/10755464/sample_title_register.pdf

www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-jan-apr-2017/can-you-disinherit-your-spouse/

She needs legal advice and a Will, and she needs to do this now, when she can still get about and has capacity. You can ask a solicitor about this without her present initially. Lots of people do to get a general handle on what's possible.

If she has no Will, everything goes straight to your Dad (presuming its not a lot of money/property). He sounds like just the sort who will hold out the promise of helping you, but actually play the great "I am" and spend it, or give it away in a public, "look at me way". It's very clear that he has no regard at all for his family. I know it feels very uncomfortable to discuss these things before death, but if she could find a way to pass on at least something it would allow you to go NC with you father if you need to.

Please, please get advice from SS, and also Age UK. A vulnerable person living with an abuser is not that uncommon, sadly.

www.gov.uk/report-abuse-of-older-person

You can lead a horse to water OP but you cannot make it drink.

NHS based therapy can take a long time to set up and can be limited in scope offering only around six sessions. If you are thinking of therapy I would have a look at the BACP website.