Cheating Toerag

[YetAnother1]

H has been cold, offish and grumpy for quite a while now. Years.
He started talking really condescendingly towards me a few years ago - it's exactly the way his father talks to his mother, and she tolerates it. I told him I won't, and to not talk like that to me. He knows he does it, knows he got it from father. He apologized back in the day, then carried on now and again. I think this was the catalyst for my feeling he'd lost respect/love for me, because he never used to speak to me like that, so if that's what his feelings were manifesting as, it felt clear to me how he felt. But our youngest was a baby and I desperately didn't want to split and then have him get the kids several nights a week. So each time he'd talk down to me, I'd pull him up on it and he'd apologise and at least make an effort for a while. But then it gradually got more frequent and I just withdrew. Just felt I'd rather not hear him talk to me that way at all, nor have the kids hear it, so conversation dwindled to basic practical stuff about the kids and what's for dinner. Nothing physical since then. I'm peri-menopausal anyway and not feeling like I'm missing that aspect of life right now. Perhaps had he not been so rude in his mannerisms and words, I'd have gotten that part of our lives back.
Actually, I feel the downspiral started during my last pregnancy, he wasn't helpful, kept consuming something the smell of which made me nauseous but he wouldn't stop despite my asking, didn't bother reading a childbirth book I really wanted him to read which would have helped me, and he was a huge letdown during labour. I just threw myself into adoring my children, they were both a long time coming and made me very happy.
So neither of us have been especially happy with each other, but I am so busy with the kids (nine, four) with zero help or support, he was busy doing various courses (kept him busy, cost us money, but actually does nothing to enhance his career in any way despite him telling me it was an investment that would help us financially) and such is life. I did not want to split when the kids were so young. I mean, they are still young :( .

I have been a sahm since our first was born, and we chose to home educate them. I knew this was a gamble for my own sense of financial security but I trusted him, and really wanted to not have the kids at school so young.
I am also hundreds of miles from my home town (though I have no parental help back there anyway. Still UK. My mother is still alive but we are NC. I have no practical support.).

He's been especially distant recently. He moved out of the family bed (still cosleep and bf the little one) at the start of lockdown, he claimed to get more space/better night's sleep as she still disturbed him in the night and both kids were staying up a little later due to their activities being cancelled. I was happy with this as his snoring was getting worse, and he didn't shower enough like I preferred he did before bed either. This was another source of contention, I'd politely ask him to shower before bed (I mean, I shouldn't even have to ask, right?), and he'd moan about it. Especially during pregnancy, my sense of smell seemed heightened, and he still wouldn't shower (he'd have one in the morning, but by the end of the day, he really needed a shower, imo.).

He's been jogging more, and staying in his home office more. Whether he's actually been jogging to get fit, or it's just his way to get out of the house to see her, I don't know.
I have had a feeling for a while now, that his thoughts are elsewhere.
He's been out a few evenings recently, he's not been one much for going out since we had the kids.
Tonight, he went out and accidentally left his computer on. I snooped and he's been chatting to a woman, I couldn't read it all as the kids were still running about and I didn't want them to see me looking, but it clearly points to at the least, flirting, building up to an affair. Lots of chatting about TV shows and books they read/watch together, signing off with xxx. I was skim reading so fast and could barely read it well, my heart was pounding so hard and my eyes felt blurry. She knows he's married with kids, and referred to his "situation". They talked about meeting up and having some drinks and"seeing what developed".
There were reams and reams of messages, I didn't even manage to scroll to the beginning to see how or when this started.
He also mentioned having a burner SIM card for his phone.
And he met her tonight.
I think they kissed, bare minimum.
When he got home, I nonchalantly asked him where he'd been, and he mentioned a male colleague by name (rolled off his tongue without a moment's hesitation), to discuss something work-oriented.

I feel stuck. I don't want to be with him, but I absolutely desperately don't want to be without my kids one night a week and every other weekend, or whatever it is, either.
But when I'm really unable to tolerate this situation, how do I even get out? I don't have a job, and not even sure what I'd do after ten years out of the workplace. I desperately didn't want the kids to have to go to school til they were a little older.
I did put the vast majority of money into our house, from the house I had before we met. He brought nothing financially to the table at that stage, but obviously has been the sole earner since our eldest was born.

I haven't been happy in our location for a long time either, I never wanted to move here but we did for his job. It was not meant to be permanent. I have wanted to move back to my hometown/area for years. Now I feel stuck in an area I absolutely hate, with no job, two kids, no practical support (yes, I've made friends here, but no one I can think of who'd be able to help, they all have kids too). My best friend lives abroad. I also can't even afford to move back as I come from a relatively expensive area. And now I don't even know if it's fair to uproot the kids and move hundreds of miles away. Is it?

First things first, I know I need to get evidence. Help - it's on his computer on WhatsApp. How do I save their conversation? I can only think of taking photos but that will take ages.
He's very techy, and I don't even know when he'll next make the mistake of leaving his computer on again.
I don't have the passwords for our bank account either. As he was the only one earning, he has been the one to oversee the accounts.

Shit.

OP - first things first. You need to see a solicitor to understand what your options are.
For example - I do not think you can decide to move with your children to another place far away from where their lives is.
Secondly - it doesn’t matter that you put in the deposit for the house. All assets are marital. And 50/50 split is the starting point.
If you were to divorce now, as your kids are still small, so you might get some spousal maintenance to get you through re-training/re-entering workforce. That would of course depend on marital assets and his income. Or you may be given larger than 50% share of assets to help you along.
But the point is - you really need to think through your financial situation and plan it, because you are quite vulnerable.

Having said all this - if I were in your position - I’d take my time and prepare my exit.
Or even considered staying to raise my kids in the way you seem to want to. If you divorce - you won’t be able to continue to homeschool them as you will simply not be able to afford it, so you have to make short term choices on what is most important to you.

It is clear that your marriage moved away from being a romantic/intimate union to more a parenting arrangement. Why not continue as is currently is?
It was your decision to just focus on the children. And while this is what you want from the relationship - he clearly doesn’t want his life to only be about kids.
So - why not keep this as a parenting arrangement - and he can meet his physical needs somewhere else?
To put us bluntly - if you don’t want to have sex with him - why do you care if he had sex with someone else?

As a side note - I do think breastfeeding a 4yo is quite extreme and you are holding on to it for your own attachment rather than to benefit the child. Kids do benefit from time with parents, but they also do really need the social interaction that a school provides. Your elder child definitely would. And your younger one would soon too. So - there is no need to catastrophize them going to school.

How do I get legal advice - what should I be looking for? How do I know who a good family solicitor is?

We have a joint account, I do have a small amount of money in my old pre-marriage account.

I thought he and I were on the same page re parenting the kids in the old ways of one parent earning whilst one saw to the kids. It felt so right for the kids, to be more present for them, not be rushing to school and juggling work and pick up, taking things at their pace. He was supportive of home educating, yes. And we were able to afford it only because of the equity I brought in from my house. I feel this was right for the children. Obviously now it's a gamble I took and I've lost. I need to get sorted and independent all over again, though it is MUCH harder now, with two dependents and my having been out of the workplace for a decade.

I had the children quite late in life, so I'd achieved in my career enough, and partied enough, travelled well, before I had them. So when they did come along, they were my absolute everything. There was a time I thought I might not even be able to have kids. So I wanted to cherish every moment. And I have. I have LOVED this time with them.

Fuck fuck fuck.

I'm so scared of living in poverty, and the stress of being a single parent, if he plays dirty and isn't fair about the finances. I need a few days right now to just survive the shock of him crossing the line, and forcing us to do something.

The added stress is not knowing what to do for the best - uproot and move to where I'm from, or make the best of it here. I'd rather be far away from him, but need to consider how abs when he'd see the kids. I wish I'd never let him convince me to move, or sell my house. Big mistake. What an idiot.

Epoch, I really don't know. I don't believe he cares about me at all. I wish he'd just go.

MMDD, extended BFing is normal. She's winding down and it's only now a few minutes before sleeping, and occasionally if she wakes. In many cultures it is totally accepted. They still have milk teeth at this age, it's really normal, I'm obviously one of "those mums" and it's pretty common in our circle of homeschooling kids.

He had been in talks with a company about a job nearer where I'm from. If we moved before we split, then at least I'm nearer where I wanted to be, geographically. Covid halted things but it's not been ruled out, though he doesn't tell me much any more. It would be a good move for his career though. So, there's this aspect to consider when holding off exposing my cards. That said, I still don't know whether the kids and I are better off moving there, or staying in this area.

I could carry on like this, if it meant an extra couple of years not having them at school.
My kids are very socialized - pre covid we went to various homeschool meetups, they did loads of extracurricular activities too.
I don't think either would thrive with such long days, and such structured learning. Home ed means developing a love of learning for its own sake, and finding your own interests. I'm not against school when they are older, just primary age feels too much.

I don't have the passwords for our bank account either. As he was the only one earning, he has been the one to oversee the accounts.

What would happen if he was in an accident or taken ill suddenly? Just because he is the main earner, doesn't mean you should have no access to or idea about your family finances. If he was incapacitated for a while, you would need to take charge of ensuring all bills are paid when they need to be etc.

You need to start some planning and get a handle on the practical issues.

Ask him for access to the bank statements so that you can get an idea of your financial situation. Do you have a mortgage, what is left to pay? Use the excuse of COVID to say you've realised how little you know about your family finances and if he should get ill and end up in hospital, you would need an understanding of your finances and bills to be paid.

With regards to whether you should move, make a list of pros and cons for each area and start researching property prices/rental. You say you would have no parental support in your home town - what about other family? If there is no-one left there, what is the attraction for moving back? If you stayed in the area, would you at least get his support in helping with the children on a regular basis? It seems unlikely this would happen if you move 100s of miles away?

Find out what benefits and financial support you would be entitled to, how much child maintenance he would have to pay.

Make a list of practical things. It may all seem overwhelming, but make a plan and break things down into topics to give yourself some focus.

Hi OP i do hope everything works out well for you and your children. Wishing you all the best. Just something to consider within your decision making processes that, as you are married, the father will have more of a say on where you can relocate with the children. The court will decide a child arrangement order during the divorce. It doesn't mean you cant move away at that stage or later on but the move has to be in the best interests of the children eg more financial stability due to you getting a job somewhere further away. If that is then impractical for your ex to travel to, the court may say he can have them during the school holidays, for example.

Use the excuse of COVID to say you've realised how little you know about your family finances and if he should get ill and end up in hospital, you would need an understanding of your finances and bills to be paid.

That is a really good idea.

I need to deal with the kids right now, but he just left for work, I went to check his computer to see if they had WhatsApped since last night, and the app is gone from his computer.

I will work on getting access to our finances asap.

Am gutted.

Your dedication to your kids is admirable, but your current set up only really works for everyone, if you are part of a dedicated, committed and full partnership, and it really doesn't sound like you are.
As you think about how you want the next phase of your life to work, you will need to think about yourself more. You may not be able to get there straight away, but the longer you leave taking proactive steps towards being financially and practically independent, the more vulnerable you will become over the longer term.

Unless you are superwoman, decent stretches of child free time to focus on yourself and your future is a must. How can you build this into your life, even if you use it just to weep for the first few months?

You know what you saw, OP. I do wonder whether he might have wanted you to see it. A cry for help, maybe? Pretty careless leaving it there.

It should be a really simple matter to set up your own log in to the joint account - you have equal rights to it, and it's perfectly normal for you both to have your own log ins.

OP - if you are tying to buy some time and see if he’d get the new job near where you want to live - I’d suggest you don’t make him suspicious.
Don’t try to get access to the accounts just yet. Let him think you didn’t do or see anything. Don’t change your behaviour in any way for now. He clearly got worried hence deleted the app. So don’t show your hand! You don’t want him try to hide money if there is something to hide.
You can ask him about accounts, etc at some later stage. In a month or so we’ll be in some sort of lockdown again, with more news of more people dying - use that time for that.

In the meanwhile - If I were you - I’d try to quietly look through paperwork and files to see if you can get any information about your finances. See, maybe he keeps copies of tax filings. Anything you find, just take a pic with your phone.

In the long term, it’s really up to you. You want to focus on raising kids rather than being part of a couple. This can be possible in your current setup. He may not want to divorce and split family assets anyway. Many men chose to live this way, especially while they have small kids. In the long term, this may not continue, so you do need to figure out how you’ll support yourself once kids are older when he might decide that he doesn’t want / need to still pay for you.

I get what you said about focusing on kids. However, that focus seems to have completely wiped out the relationship between the two of you. So - I am sorry you are shocked and hurt, but in reality there are two sides to this story. His side also counts - he has gained children but lost his W in the process. It’s sad from all the angels.

He may delete the app and reinstall each evening to talk to her.

Firstly one step at a time. Speak to a few solicitors and find out what you should do.

Secondly, I know you want it, but you don't need evidence

Thirdly, get copies of all important legal documents and hide passports etc

Fourthly, take a look on the benefits website, you'll be surprised at what you can claim. Don't worry about jobs just yet. You e enough in your plate at the moment

I'd also seriously consider moving back and taking the dc with you. He won't be able to stop you as you are the primary Carer, it's better for you regarding support structure etc and it'll be a great start for you too. Going by what you say I'd say it's unlikely he'll want the dc much anyway

Being blunt, this really shouldn’t come as a surprise. There’s putting your children first, as all good parents should; and then there’s building and living your life entirely around your children to the exclusion of everyone, including your spouse - which is what it sounds like you’ve spent the past few years doing.

There’s nothing in your post about being sad your marriage might be over because you love your DH and love the life you have together - just panic that you might have to get a job and support yourself and put your DC in school and develop a life which isn’t all about them. I think that’s pretty telling.

You don’t need proof or evidence to divorce. You just need the knowledge that neither of you is happy in the relationship and that (for it certainly sounds so) you don’t particularly like each other. It doesn’t matter if he denies the affair. You’ve seen the evidence. You know what’s happened. You don’t have to make him admit it. Regardless of whether the deposit you contributed was ringfenced (if you didn’t specifically make s legal agreement about it, it isn’t, any more than he can “ringfence” all the money he’s contributed to paying the mortgage whilst you stayed at home) you’ll get a decent financial settlement which will likely include more than half of the shared home and assets.

Either that or come to some agreement where you remain married but he’s free to live his own life and discretely see other people whilst maintaining the financial status quo which enables you to be wrapped up in your children.

Is the app completely gone or just not accessible? Think his phone has to be in area if it's a laptop version of WhatsApp. If he's deleted it do you think he's realised you saw it? It would say the last time it was accessed on his phone app.

You can access Whatsapp on a computer/laptop using whatsapp web, it's viewable in your internet browser, no need to install an app.

Exactly what @ComtesseDeSpair said. I thought that immediately

I have to say I agree with what @ComtesseDeSpair said. It's clear you feel as little for him as you think he feels for you. Personally I think wrapping yourself around your children to the extent you have is unhealthy in anything but the strongest relationships.

But I wouldn't waste time sleuthing. You know it's over, you don't want to salvage the marriage and your children will survive, as will you.

Everywhere is looking for carers these days. You may not have commercial care experience but your parenting choices will have given you a lot of transferable skills. That's somewhere to start. Your children will adjust to school and you will adjust to single parenthood. We all do.

You just need to accept that it's over, see a solicitor and get the ball tolling.

Op- you literally just discovered the other woman, your emotions are all over the place and this will manifest in many different ways, feeling sick, not eating, sleeping etc.
First thing, take a breath, he’s not going anywhere for now, and as other MN’s have said, use this time to take steps to set yourself up. Do not panic- as long as he has no clue that you are aware of what’s going on, you will have the time to get that legal advice. Knowing what your options are legally is very important and will probably help you to decide what your next steps will be. Go online, research solicitors, see if you can get a free hour worth of advice. Gather as much information re the house and finances and prepare the questions you want to ask before your appointment. Just by doing this you will feel more in control of your life. Just keep putting one foot ahead of the other.

I think your kids would adapt to school, the days are not long at all and they get to have fun alongside learning. There is no reason why your children should find school tiring.

I love being with my kids but I have always wanted them to have the freedom that school brings.

You don't need to make a decision regarding moving yet. You are just entering into this process and it will take time to divide assets and navigate your divorce.

I think in your shoes my first step would be to enroll the kids and find a job, get access to your own finances and consult a solicitor.

@ComtesseDeSpair

Being blunt, this really shouldn’t come as a surprise. There’s putting your children first, as all good parents should; and then there’s building and living your life entirely around your children to the exclusion of everyone, including your spouse - which is what it sounds like you’ve spent the past few years doing.

There’s nothing in your post about being sad your marriage might be over because you love your DH and love the life you have together - just panic that you might have to get a job and support yourself and put your DC in school and develop a life which isn’t all about them. I think that’s pretty telling.

You don’t need proof or evidence to divorce. You just need the knowledge that neither of you is happy in the relationship and that (for it certainly sounds so) you don’t particularly like each other. It doesn’t matter if he denies the affair. You’ve seen the evidence. You know what’s happened. You don’t have to make him admit it. Regardless of whether the deposit you contributed was ringfenced (if you didn’t specifically make s legal agreement about it, it isn’t, any more than he can “ringfence” all the money he’s contributed to paying the mortgage whilst you stayed at home) you’ll get a decent financial settlement which will likely include more than half of the shared home and assets.

Either that or come to some agreement where you remain married but he’s free to live his own life and discretely see other people whilst maintaining the financial status quo which enables you to be wrapped up in your children.

I agree with this completely. The fact he’s cheated shouldn’t come as a surprise when you have pushed him aside and wrapped your life around your children only. It’s not healthy and you shouldn’t be bffing a 4 year old! I’m sorry this has happened to you but I think you’re in for a shock, you’re likely going to have to get a job and share your kids with him. There’s no way you can move them hundreds of miles from their father so I’d get that idea out of your head.

If you want to stay as a family unit but don't want to be in a romantic relationship with him, what about turning it into a co parenting marriage?

He's found someone else and you could too.

It's really no surprise he's seeing someone given the state of your marriage. It sounds absolutely miserable. It's joyless, you have never sex life and continuing to co-sleep just adds to it.

In essence you're like housemates. You don't need proof. You don't need one party at fault to instigate a divorce. You know the truth.

While he is out of order for speaking to you as he does, you have separation anxiety with your kids and this is making things worse for you.

You keep saying they're too young to go to school, but millions of kids their age go...why are your children any different? What are you scared of?

Your youngest was a baby when things got bad....yet you became financially dependent on him, whilst withdrawing and detaching from him....I don't blame you for detaching...but relying on a man who disrespects you and speaks condescendingly to you, was always going to end badly.

What would happen if you were just honest with him and told him you'd read his chat with this woman and you therefore want to discuss the state of your marriage?

After years of no sex? What's the point in talking. The marriage is long dead.

I agree with what pp have said about breastfeeding a 4 year old.

I would have moved out of the bedroom if I was him too.

I suspect he feels as trapped as you. A wife and 2 kids to financially support. There's nothing more than essential conversation between you.

This is the model of marriage that your children are seeing. It's not healthy. Not one bit.

You need to sort your shit out quickly. He’s clearly moving on.

Can posters please stop judging the extended breastfeeding, it’s not usual but it is entirely normal.

You have essentially pushed him out in favour of your children though and he’s checked out as there is nothing left for him.

What industry did you work in?