When do adult dc forgive divorce?

[frocksmock]

It's 3 and a half years since I divorced their father for emotional and financial abuse they didn't see or know about. Exh took to drink and was angry, upset and emotional, threw the one adult dc who still lived at home out and put all their childhood belongings in a skip. Nevertheless he met and married someone else within 18 months. I didn't show how distressed I was, apologised constantly to my dc, began dating but nothing really worked out and met a couple of abusive men along the way who treated me badly. My ds is lovely with me but my adult daughters are contemptuous, rude, unforgiving and barely speak to me. They have babies that they rarely let me see, but they involve their father and his new wife in everything. I understand that dating so soon looked bad and that I made some bad choices. I've done the freedom programme now and had a lot of counselling. I can't apologise enough to my daughters but they just refuse to forgive and their nastiness is tearing me apart. Every conversation is like treading on eggshells and I'm losing the chance to know my beautiful grandchildren. What can I do?

Oh sorry, I was confusing the 1.5 years with the new relationship. Have your daughters calmed down at all over the years?
I agree that you need to keep up the counselling, as your own upbringing and experiences seem to be part of what's making you feel so guilty.
Maybe also see if you can find out what story your ex has been telling them? I would guess that his version of the story makes you look worse.
It must hurt a lot.

OP, this all sounds really tough. I can't speak for forgiveness, especially if your children are involved in churches that use the language of sin and that you relationship breakdown is sinful. But you sound like you're in a bad place spiritually. You talk about losing your salvation and I truly, in my heart of hearts, don't believe that. I, somewhat controversially, believe in universal salvation. I can't find anything in the Bible or in my heart that really speaks otherwise. However, even if this is not something you subscribe to, I would really encourage you to seek out a spiritual director. It sounds to me like you need to reconcile some things.

Frock stop giving yourself a hard time

I’ve an older dc (25) who can treat me the same sometimes and I’d lie in bed at night thinking of ways I could heal it. But you know what people make mistakes the best thing to do is move forwards and stop crucifying yourself.

But I realised the past is the past and I can’t change it. You can’t control how other people treat you but you can control how you deal with things.

Let the relationship with your ds flourish and take the love you need from that. Your daughters will come around eventually when they grow up. But please stop letting them treat you like this. They are all adults and should know better.

I had dd1 when I was 16 and made so many mistakes because I was a child myself. She was spoilt though and was always showered with love but I used to let her get away with so much because the guilt was always hanging over me.

Your a good mother. You love your kids. Dont let the guilt make you out to be some one your not

I am not religious but I feel desperately sad for you and feel that on the contrary to you losing your salvation, that you have been your own salvation.

For the one that's still in the church, you need to just be open and let her draw her own conclusions - but obviously her husband may be affecting her views too.

For the others, are they less angry about the divorce than about the fact that they were forced to live such a limited life as children and adolescents, one they presumably had to really fight to free themselves from, and now see you living the life they wish you'd given them from the off?

Have you found another spiritual community?

"If I had carried on in the role of obedient wife this would not have happened and I've lost my salvation as well as my dds which I bitterly regret"

You haven't lost your salvation. Please ditch that idea at once. On that basis, more or less all of us on the planet would not be saved. How likely is that? How likely is it that none of us are saved but the members of the patriarchal, controlling and narrow-minded religion which you fled are? Does that sound like something God would countenance to you? Certainly doesn't to me. It is the polar opposite of Jesus's teachings.

You showed great strength and courage to get away from your abusive relationship. It's a terrible shame your daughters are not more forgiving. Clearly the church you left is not one which teaches forgiveness but we know from what you have already said that it is not a church of love. But it gives your daughters a kind of power over you, doesn't it? If you are continuing to cringe and apologise and beg. They have the power of withholding.

I agree with PP - it was a mistake to shield your DCs from your reasons for leaving. It was a mistake made from a place of love and care so don't give yourself a hard time for it. Goodness knows, most parents have probably endless mistakes from that position. But I do think it would be appropriate to explain your side of the story to them now.

And then, I think you may need to step back a bit. Stop cringing and apologising and giving them the power of withholding. You were entitled to reach for freedom. The structure of patriarchal authority that was being modelled to your children was deeply unhealthy. If most of your children have now left the church, your example has probably helped them take that step.

You don't have to remove yourself entirely - you can continue to reach out and make clear that you are available for them and would love to see them. But stop debasing yourself. Not only have you done nothing wrong: you're a brave and powerful woman. Acknowledge the goddess within you. Feel that power surging through you. Stand tall. Own what you did and why you did it. Let them know you love them. Let them know you love yourself.

First of all you need to stop apologising.

By apologising you are reinforcing their idea that you were in the wrong.

Nothing you have done is wrong. You left an abusive marriage. You dated people. Wow. Big deal. Your children need to grow up. They are adults now and have to come to terms with you also being an adult with your own life.

Be kind to yourself. Anyone is allowed to leave a marriage for any reason whatsoever. You have more reason than most. You don’t need to say sorry for anything.

OP, is your counsellor experienced in working with people who have left a religion? I ask because it's quite a tricky area that has clearly left you with feelings of guilt and shame that you simply don't need to carry. If your counsellor isn't experienced or religious themselves then it's quite easy for them to concentrate on the relationship side without the religious side as well, despite the two being deeply intertwined.

BTW the church I belong to teaches that our salvation is between us and Jesus and that leaving an abusive relationship has naff all to do with it. Been there...

I suspect you need a good deal of professional support to get through this so you might want to seriously consider counselling if you haven't done so already.

Here's my lay opinion for what it's worth.

Your XH is an abuser, you know this. It is extremely unlikely that he isn't also abusing and controlling your children and has probably done so all of their lives. He may use different tactics to what he used on you, he may be more subtle with them, but I'd bet the controlling abuse is there and deeply embedded. Now he is using them to continue his abuse of you by proxy. They are following his script, believing what he feeds them, because they have been conditioned that it is simply not an option to question or challenge his views.

I can't begin to give you solutions unfortunately other than to work on yourself as the first priority and seek professional support to do so.

@ravenmum I suppose they have calmed down a bit, to the extent that one of them refused to speak to me until a year ago, so that's progress! No, I haven't found a spiritual community because I'm terrified to open myself up to judgement. It's hard enough getting over silly things like short sleeves, trousers etc.
@PurBal where should I begin?
@Poulter @niceupthedance thank you for being so kind
@Everywherethatmarywent I'm so sorry that you're going through this too

@YukoandHiro I think you may be right and maybe it's their upbringing I should apologise to them for. There were some positives in it, but it was certainly very different from the mainstream, and for girls it leaves its mark.

@Dery @Bagelsandbrie you're very kind. I think I need absolution, and I'm not going to find that on a forum - I am very mixed up I'm sorry.
@SeasonallySnowyPeasant no, but I did see a Muslim counsellor for a while who was very understanding, so I could go back to her
@TooTrueToBeGood thank you - the freedom programme was eye opening, and it's amazing what you don't see when the church and your community take certain behaviours as the norm. In our community it was a normal for the wife to show her husband all the housework she had done that day for his approval, to show she hadn't been idle. That's just one example.

I would try and go back to your Muslim Counsellor if you can .You say she was very understanding .As far as your daughters go ,they have been taught that Divorce is wrong, whatever the circumstances I imagine.Children often put parents on a Pedastal and are shocked and angry when they fall off it! Keep talking to your Son as well .Your DD may be being influenced by your ex of course .It is hard for anyone getting divorced and harder still when you are stepping out of your community to do it! I think you are very brave and have done nothing wrong at all!

You can't just sit there alone with these thoughts - if you still believe, you need some kind of community. Is there a support group for ex members of your church? Perhaps some people have gone through things like this before, worked through it and would be able to guide you?

Would it help for you to meet people who are both religious and believe in equality, freedom etc. I attend church and had nothing but support when my h left me. Salvation is not dependent on staying in an abusive relationship, it's about what's in your heart. I'm guessing your ex stayed in the church and was found another subservient woman? Just so wrong, it's cult like not a true religion which is based on love and respect

I didn't need to forgive my parents for getting divorced. They are entitled to a life where they are both happy. In fact I'd have much rather they divorced and been happy than stay in an unfulfilling (and in your case, abusive) relationship for my sake.

I don't understand why some adult 'children' would prefer the alternative for their parents who they are supposed to love. It makes them seem like not very nice people to me.

Although by the sounds of it this church has done a number on all of you.

Aw OP it sounds like you are going through a really difficult time and are understandably feeling lost. I don’t think they are unforgiving of the divorce but are adjusting to the new you. Your children have developed a perspective of you which you no longer fit in to and it will take them a while to adjust, just as you will take some time to adjust. I understand you feel the need for absolution but you need to dig deep as that (along with praise and worth) need to come from within you. Also just because you have left the church does not mean you have lost your faith or need to turn your back on this but a more balanced approach between self and faith is desirable. Take your time and be kind to yourself and soon you will have a great relationship with yourself and your children will see this and want to be around you to get to know you for who you are. Keep going, you are doing great!

@ravenmum @movingonup20 I'm not sure what I believe any more and very scarred and scared now about opening myself up to more judgement, but I do need to make peace with it all spiritually somehow you're right. I'm not sure about support for former church members - we didn't use technology so I'm not sure how likely I am to find them on the internet, but I've never looked - thank you for the idea
@dottiedodah you're very kind

I hate to say it op...but often abusers have cluster b personality disorders. Which can be passed on to children.

It is possible your daughter us just being fooled an emotionally manipulated by your ex. But our is also possible that she is just cut from the same cloth as him.

Most normal adults would not be resentful of their mother for leaving an abuser. Yet be ok with the abuser. It suggests a very young mindset (which may adjust in time, provided she has space from your ex for it to do so) or a stunted one.

Please don't beat yourself up. You did right by them in leaving him. I suggest you try to take a step back from them all. Read up on narcissists and how to spot them too. And if you havebt done it already, the freedom programme can be done online.

From what I can see, your actions have benefited the lives of 2 of your 3 daughters, and your son, so well done, they may not realise it themselves yet, but they will come to in time.
Your silent daughter has started speaking to you, so things are progressing. It's possible that your exH could be behind them not including you as much as him in their lives, rather than a point of view they hold. The way to find out the truth of it from their perspective is to ask them. You've all likely suppressed a lot of inner feelings over the years, but to rekindle relationships you need to find a way to open up a bit at a time ( don't let it all out in one go). They won't have forgotten the strong bond you had before you left, they might even be proud of you, for assisting their freedom.

Please stop apologising. Be kind to yourself. Spend time with your lovely son, do invite daughters to meet/tea now and again. The apologising confirms you as the 'wrong doer' in their eyes so just resist the urge. You have done nothing wrong. Stay strong, you sound lovely.

OP I don't know much about your religion. But you haven't done anything wrong and the adult children have nothing to forgive.

Any belief system which would have you stay with an abusive man isn't worth anything and is toxic. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
I think it's really bad for you to seek forgiveness from them as you haven't done anything wrong and it undermines everything you've worked on in the freedom programme. As it makes you think you were responsible or could have changed how you and he behaved.

I think all you can do is move on and build positive relationships with friends and family who understand. Sending love

I don't have any useful advice but I just want to offer you some hugs and encourage you to believe that you haven't done anything wrong. I hope you can find yourself in a better place and that your daughters will eventually see that you did what you had to to protect yourself.

You mention 'opening yourself up to judgement' several times. I think it's key to understand that not everyone is judgemental, and the non-judgemental, humble, kind people are the ones we need in our lives. It's difficult in these times to find new friends, but they are out there. Please try to open up and share your story fully with someone in real life. A very good starting point it seems to me is your DS.

Oh, and it's not your role to manage your DC's perception of their father any more. They have a relationship with him. See if it's strong enough to cope with knowing the truth of what you went through.