Underage sex / rape

[witcherbewitched]

I've name changed, as this is a dark topic and I'm not entirely sure what I need - possibly just the catharsis of telling someone.

When I was fifteen, I was in a sexual relationship with a twenty five year old on and off for a few months. It started off really well (/ as well as it could have given my current perspective on the situation) and he acted as though he was very emotionally invested in me - e.g. spending a lot of time with me, telling me he thought he might love me etc etc. I was a bit emotionally broken and probably didn't think I loved him, but I guess I enjoyed the attention to a certain extent.

Some stuff happened that (obvious age issues aside) made me feel like I was in the grey zone between rape and sex. So, any time I would come and see him and not want sex he would be fine on the day and continuously reassure me that I didn't have to do anything sexual - only to come home and return to messages from him about me wasting his time and essentially making false promises. This happened once on a day where I didn't want to have sex with him because I was dealing with emotional fallout from family issues, but after that I just had sex with him (or did sexual things) because it was easier to say yes and not deal with him taking his "love" away.

Writing it down it does seem closer to sexual assault than sex - but I still feel like it was my fault. I told him I wanted sex and he met up with me I guess under the idea that I would provide it, and he was never violent so it never really registered as anything dodgy.

I also had a whole slew of family / mental health issues and after this, when I was sixteen I had a one-night-stand with a fifty one year old (I guess out of anger and self destruction).This also made me feel like what happened with the 25 year old was my fault, as no self respecting person hops into bed with someone who might hurt them (particularly with a big age gap).

I'm now getting closer to his age, and I can't ever imagine having sex with a fifteen year old, but I also can't quite connect the dots as to if it was sexual assault or a miscommunication. It makes me feel like shit, as I never want to have in my head that someone had bad intentions if they didn't but I think it did fuck me up pretty badly - sexual assault or not.

Sorry, I know this is a bit of a dark and odd one for a Thursday night. Feel free to tell me I made shit choices, if you think that's the right thing to do. I think I just needed to tell an unbiased party.Thank you x

@CornishTiger I'm fortunate to have met DH not long after all of these events took place and he's thankfully been a bit of a light in my life - that's definitely played a major role in improving boundaries.

The victim status part I think I may always struggle with. I guess I'm always going to feel like other people had it worse so I shouldn't have the right to take space or time away from them.

Well done you for reporting the abuse though. I'm not sure I could ever do that, but it's incredible that you've managed to and shows a lot of bravery. I hope whatever proceedings are taken go well x

Rough area you are? Can see what specialised services are around. Counsellor said today it is often women who are much older coming to terms with this so our age is fantastic to be unravelling it as we don’t have to continue to live with this dark burden. I also have had intrusive thoughts due to this past experience.

Unfortunately no proceedings. He received a caution of sexual activity with a minor over twenty years ago related to me. Unknown to me at time so despite further abuse and it escalating no more action police can take. Had it been a few years later he’d have been on sex offenders register.

He had a door knock though following my statement and items recovered in relation to his ongoing control /blackmailing of me. I have just had those come back into my possession and am processing them.

I regained a lot of self worth once I said no more control over me and made that call.

@CornishTiger

Rough area you are? Can see what specialised services are around. Counsellor said today it is often women who are much older coming to terms with this so our age is fantastic to be unravelling it as we don’t have to continue to live with this dark burden. I also have had intrusive thoughts due to this past experience.

I move around quite a bit (family problems, I sound like a broken record!). I'll have a look into some counselling / services - I had a great relationship with my old counsellor but she was very expensive and now probably too far away to facilitate any kind of session with.

I do feel like a bit of weight has lifted just from this thread alone honestly - it's genuinely good to hear other people's experiences in similar situations and that they've managed to heal and facilitate happy, healthy lives. Anyone who has experienced any kind of assault / abuse deserves to be happy (even me, I guess - though both assault and a desire to be happy are both hard things to acknowledge). I just want to let all of this weight go, I've been holding on for a long time now. I'm sorry to hear about your intrusive thoughts, I know how hard it can be :(

@CornishTiger

Unfortunately no proceedings. He received a caution of sexual activity with a minor over twenty years ago related to me. Unknown to me at time so despite further abuse and it escalating no more action police can take. Had it been a few years later he’d have been on sex offenders register.

He had a door knock though following my statement and items recovered in relation to his ongoing control /blackmailing of me. I have just had those come back into my possession and am processing them.

I regained a lot of self worth once I said no more control over me and made that call.

Fuck, I'm sorry there are no proceedings. That should be a crime in-and-of itself in my opinion. You've done all you can though, and it takes a lot of strength to make a statement (particularly when it happened a long time ago and on some level it's easier to pretend it was a different lifetime, in my experience anyway). You should be really proud of yourself xx

I understand. Look at whoever does the domestic abuse services within you county. Council website might be good. My counselling is free. I couldn’t afford it otherwise and the basic nhs cbt offer would in no way cover it.

@CornishTiger I'm going to have a look now, see what I can find (as well as waiting times, particularly with the Pandemic).

Thank you so much for all your advice, it really has helped me and made a difference. I'm feeling a lot of sadness and anger that I've been repressing, but I also feel like there's now a bit of a weight off my shoulders just telling someone (even if indirectly on an online forum). I hope everything goes well for you and good luck with your counselling! Thank you

Nothing to add except Mumsnet at its very best!

The approach I'm taking with DD is basically the opposite of the way my DM did things with me! I've taught her (I hope!) to have the boundaries and self respect I never had and that she can tell me absolutely anything and I will never be embarrassed or judgemental or angry as long as she's honest with me. The honesty thing is central to it all tbh, I've drummed it into her since she was tiny that there's nothing she can't tell me, that there may be consequences (if she's done something wrong) but there will never be anger and she knows from experience she can trust that.

I try to balance all the shit things I'm duty bound to teach her about being female (inequality, sexual harassment, personal safety etc) with all the amazing things about being a woman so she understands both her own worth and what she has to contend with a whole lot sooner than I did. I'm not raising her to hate men but I'm also not excusing the male violence she sees in the news and on tv, I want her to be aware it exists even though I wish it didn't.

I'm trying to show her what healthy relationships should look like and then use comparisons with stuff we see on tv (and real life with some extended family members) which is abusive or unhealthy so she understands the difference. I also try to model good boundaries so she can see that saying no is ok, that's something I learned way too late in life and I don't want that for her.

There's probably lots I've missed out but I'm generally trying to give her all the things I didn't have, self esteem and self worth but also some knowledge of what she's likely to have to navigate as a teenager and then as a young woman so she's not as naive and vulnerable as I was. I hope that answers your question OP, feel free to ask if there's anything else I can help with and I hope you're ok

I'm conscious that I bring up the shark cage analogy quite a lot, but I think it's really good www.oomm.live/the-shark-cage-metaphor-spotting-potential-abusers/

"No one is born with a shark cage. A shark cage is a set of ideas and skills that create good boundaries and self-esteem. People with good shark cages will weigh any potential new relationship against how happy they already are. Some of the things that contribute to having a good shark cage include:

• Being raised to believe you’re valuable and important.
• Having adults in your life who model healthy, mutual relationships.
• Being taught from an early age that your body belongs to you and no one can touch it without your permission.
• Believing that you are fundamentally equal to other human beings.
• Knowing how to say “no” effectively.
• Knowing how to tell the difference between interest in you as a person and as an object.
• Trusting your “spidey-sense” when it tells you to turn someone down.

People with shark cages that need work will weigh any potential new relationship against the terrifying prospect of being alone. Some of the things that contribute to having a shark cage that’s a fixer-upper are:

• Believing that you are fundamentally not good enough in some very important way. (Not pretty enough, or smart enough, or sophisticated enough, etc. )
• Being raised with unhealthy relationships, especially domestic violence, as your primary model.
• Being abused as a child, especially sexually abused.
• Having your wants and needs continually disrespected as a child
• Believing that you owe anyone who is “nice” to you a portion of your time and attention above a simple “thank you”.
• Thinking that saying “no” is rude.
• Being so starved for touch and/or love that you are willing to accept being treated as an object in exchange for touch and occasional affection. "

@TwixTwixtwoo Thank you so much for taking the time to both help your daughter in this very fundamental way, and share so other people can hopefully help their own children too. I wish I had a mum who taught me any and all of these things, but I guess there's no time like the present to teach yourself (and I really hope I can raise my future children with good self respect and esteem). You sound like a lovely mum . I hope your daughter never has to experience anything like this. x

@category12 It's interesting to see how many of the shit shark cage elements I seem to have absorbed haha. I guess I'm wondering what methods there are to kind of fix-up your shark cage? I'm fortunate to have a loving husband who can sometimes act like a bit of an effective shark cage, but I think I'd like to be able to trust myself a bit more. x

It's only really now (in my late 40's) I can see just how wrong the mens' behaviour actually was, and how vulnerable I was.

Absolutely this..
I have shared my own experience with an older man on other threads. Also 15 back then. To be honest, I'm still working out how I feel about it. I'm 40. These things take time. It's great you are addressing them now. Took me 25 years.

I'm sure I'm still getting some things wrong but I'm doing my best and I'm pretty sure DD is already better equipped than I was so I must be getting some of it right She seems pretty comfortable in her skin which I think points to decent self esteem and although she's fairly shy socially she's not afraid to speak up or remove herself if she's not comfortable, which I think shows she has boundaries and the confidence to assert them. It's a long road yet, she's only just hitting teenage so I may well be eating my words in the coming years

You're absolutely right that it's never too late to teach yourself this stuff, I think I felt I pretty much had to when I had DD because I couldn't let her go through the stuff I did. I'm glad I've made some kind of peace with it though, it's nice to be free of that guilt even though it means the men were every bit the peadophiles and rapists we'd convinced ourselves they weren't.

That's a shock, when you realise how you would view what they did if you were reading it in a news report of a grooming case for example, or on something like the Three Girls drama that was on tv a while back. If you're anything like me you put no blame on the girls in those examples, all you see is how abhorrent the men's behaviour is and yet we carry all this shame and guilt about our own experiences. I guess it's true we are our own worst critics, when really we should be our own best friends and cheerleaders.

The very fact that you can't figure out these situations in your head shows clearly that it was cohersion and grooming. This is why there is an age of consent and yes, you coming under that age means that it was wrong and you were taken advantage of. You should not be left wondering this things for years because fundamentally THEY should not have cohersed you. This is why it's illegal.

You need to give yourself a break. It was illegal on their part. Was not your fault. It's as simple as that. The onus is NOT on you to find a way around that in your head or to figure out if it actually was ok in any way. It wasn't.

You may prefer to see yourself as a survivor, rather than a victim. You survived your parents' inadequate parenting, the abusive men who took advantage of your vulnerability, and your own self destructive tendencies.

Not only survived, but are strong enough to consider carefully how you would parent future children in order to break the cycle. Do you realise how strong and self aware that makes you? Well done you!

I'm glad you have found a supportive partner. Try women's aid for support and suggestions, they will be able to signpost you at the very least.

This is such a comforting thread, thank you everyone really

I'm glad you're finding the thread comforting, it's not always a nest of vipers here I feel I should clarify something after my references to grooming cases etc. because I don't want you to go down the 'what happened to me wasn't that bad' road, something I definitely would have done in the past.

When I was 13 I was raped by a 17 year old lad I'd been 'seeing'. It wasn't violent, we were kissing and touching but that's as far as I wanted to go, he just carried on when I said no. I brushed it off at the time, didn't see it as rape even though it clearly was and didn't immediately realise the damage it had done.

I was already on dangerous ground even before that, my dad left when I was a baby and didn't stay in touch and I was dealing with abuse from my SF at home so was already throwing myself at any man who looked my way to convince myself there wasn't something 'wrong' with me. After the rape it just got worse, I remember a guy in his mid 30's who used to come and pick me up when I was about 14/15, he'd buy tacky underwear he liked me to wear and have sex with me in his car. There were others, a 19 year old I used to bunk off school to have sex with at his house, a 23 year old who was my first kiss at 13 and I ended up having sex with when I was 14 and some of my brothers friends who would have been 18/19 when I was 14/15.

So I wasn't beaten or drugged or threatened, I was just a damaged kid who got completely taken advantage of by the worst kind of men. I don't know if it helps you to know that but I didn't want you to misunderstand what happened to me.

@TwixTwixtwoo
This really does help me - thank you for saying it. I can read your story and fully understand that you were taken advantage of and that none of it was your fault, and so I guess by default because we were in similar situations it will be a stepping stone for me to believe the same about myself.

I don't mean this part to be offensive at all (please don't take it as such, but if you do I profusely apologise) but it's reassuring to know that you had a similar reaction of having sex with more people as a trauma response. I guess for me personally, I have a lot of the internalised stuff about what it means to be a "whore" (not for other people but for myself) and so I think the guilt of feeling like I put myself in a situation where I was taken advantage of was compounded by the fact that I was promiscuous afterwards. Almost like it was my fault for not learning from my mistakes / allowing myself to be taken advantage of again.

I definitely emotionally switched off after it happened. With aforementioned middle aged man or other 25 year old as an example, but even moreso having sex with boys because I felt an obligation to them. I remember later on in the year when I was fifteen having sex with someone who I found really really unattractive (physically and emotionally honestly) because he brought weed and travelled a bit of a distance and I didn't think I was worth enough for him to do that without the promise of sex.

I feel like I'm in a bit of a confessional, but it's actually bringing me some relief. Sorry I know this is very "me, me, me" - once I get my shit sorted out emotionally, I might try and volunteer to help out people who go through similar things (though there's definitely some emotional growth that needs to happen first). Thank you for your experiences, and sorry for the tangent. You're a kind person x

Yep, I had sex with a lot of people through my teens and early 20's, right up until I met DH at 25. I now realise not one of them was for the right reasons, because I wanted to, and it's taken a long time (and plenty of patience from DH) to 'fix' my attitude to sex and develop normal sexual responses. I still suffer with some of the internalised 'whore' stuff you mention, it's an ongoing battle!

Nothing you ask will offend me, I'm honestly happy to answer anything if it helps

I'm currently at a stage in my relationship where I'm just taking a break from sex - if the mood strikes for both my partner and I then there are some exceptions, but it's taken a lot of energy to unlearn that you're obligated to have sex because you're a girlfriend / wife, or they've been nice to you, or whether you want it or not isn't the important part etc. I'm just very fortunate to have a DH who can understand and respect this, and that we can get our intimacy in other ways.

I've got a few questions (though feel free to ignore absolutely any or PM me if that's preferable). I was just wondering if you ever reported, and if not do you ever feel guilt about it? It happened quite a long time ago for me now, and I don't think I'd ever report for a few reasons, but I still feel guilty for not protecting other girls I suppose.
I know how angry and upset I would be if my hypothetical daughter was sexually assaulted and there was a possibility of the abuser being reported earlier that hadn't happened (though that's completely unreasonable and it wouldn't be the victim's fault in any way, shape or form.)
I think I have more internalised victim-blaming than my liberal lifestyle and personality would let on, truthfully.

Do you still bear any anger / resentment for what happened to you or the abuser? Constantly torn between a desire for socially-acceptable forgiveness, and letting myself be really angry as I repressed it for so long. Thank you so much though

I have what I see as healthy anger now, I'm raging that any young girl could be treated like that and that there are men out there who think that's ok but it feels less personal now somehow, almost like it happened to somebody else. I haven't forgiven them, I never will and I'm ok with that, they don't deserve forgiveness. The peace I've made is with myself, I've forgiven myself for the things I did that allowed those men to abuse me. It wasn't my fault that I didn't know how to protect myself or that my need for attention brought them to me like moths to a flame, they were (mostly) adults and it was on them to make the right choices when I clearly couldn't.

No I never reported the rape, his father was a senior police officer so I knew my chances were even worse than average. It was 3 years before I admitted to myself there was anything to report anyway so it didn't feel like there was much point. I did feel guilt over that, especially as I later found out there were other girls, one before me and one after that I know of. I had to let that go when DH pointed out that I in no way blamed the girl before me for my rape so why would I be responsible for the one(s) after? I hate it when he's right! It would never have occurred to me to report the others, there was no word or charge (that I was aware of anyway) for grooming back then and I willingly participated. It would be viewed differently now of course but it would have been pointless to report then.

Interestingly my rapist apologised to me when I was about 20. I was working in a local shop and he came in, I saw him clock me and he went to leave and then changed his mind and hovered til the shop was empty. I was terrified by this point, stood there with my finger over the panic button but he just walked up to the counter, said 'I'm sorry' and then walked out. I don't honestly know how I feel about that now, it sent me on a downward spiral at the time so it still feels like a negative memory but I suppose it's a good thing if he at least feels remorse for what he did.

Issues with sex have nearly finished me and DH numerous times, it's only quite recently that we've finally got to a good place with it all so I totally get the taking a break thing. Intimacy is vital though and it's likely you'll need support from your DH if you're just starting to work through all this so it's important to maintain that. Very much the voice of experience there, I pushed my DH away for a long time thinking he wouldn't understand but he's been amazing so make sure you lean on yours

@TwixTwixtwoo

I have what I see as healthy anger now, I'm raging that any young girl could be treated like that and that there are men out there who think that's ok but it feels less personal now somehow, almost like it happened to somebody else. I haven't forgiven them, I never will and I'm ok with that, they don't deserve forgiveness. The peace I've made is with myself, I've forgiven myself for the things I did that allowed those men to abuse me. It wasn't my fault that I didn't know how to protect myself or that my need for attention brought them to me like moths to a flame, they were (mostly) adults and it was on them to make the right choices when I clearly couldn't.

No I never reported the rape, his father was a senior police officer so I knew my chances were even worse than average. It was 3 years before I admitted to myself there was anything to report anyway so it didn't feel like there was much point. I did feel guilt over that, especially as I later found out there were other girls, one before me and one after that I know of. I had to let that go when DH pointed out that I in no way blamed the girl before me for my rape so why would I be responsible for the one(s) after? I hate it when he's right! It would never have occurred to me to report the others, there was no word or charge (that I was aware of anyway) for grooming back then and I willingly participated. It would be viewed differently now of course but it would have been pointless to report then.

Interestingly my rapist apologised to me when I was about 20. I was working in a local shop and he came in, I saw him clock me and he went to leave and then changed his mind and hovered til the shop was empty. I was terrified by this point, stood there with my finger over the panic button but he just walked up to the counter, said 'I'm sorry' and then walked out. I don't honestly know how I feel about that now, it sent me on a downward spiral at the time so it still feels like a negative memory but I suppose it's a good thing if he at least feels remorse for what he did.

Issues with sex have nearly finished me and DH numerous times, it's only quite recently that we've finally got to a good place with it all so I totally get the taking a break thing. Intimacy is vital though and it's likely you'll need support from your DH if you're just starting to work through all this so it's important to maintain that. Very much the voice of experience there, I pushed my DH away for a long time thinking he wouldn't understand but he's been amazing so make sure you lean on yours

@TwixTwixtwoo Both you and your DH seem very wise, honestly. I'm definitely going to keep what he said about the fact that I wouldn't blame the girl beforehand close to heart. I'm sorry you didn't feel you could report though - it's one thing to make the choice, but another thing to feel like you don't have the choice as the chances of a conviction are so slim.

Did his admission / apology make you feel better or worse? From my perspective if it happened to me, I would probably feel good as I guess it would 'validate' my experience (terrible, I know) but I guess it makes you feel worse that he knows he's culpable for it, as it suggests he can't have blindly made a mistake - not that rape is a mistake, and not that I'm suggesting in any way that it happened to you. I know the person who did it to me would never apologise- probably just saw it as "laddish" behaviour.

A lot of this conversation is actually bringing back memories that I forgot I had - my parents tried to enforce meeting the person who hurt me (after he had hurt me, though obviously I wasn't actually aware of what had happened and neither were my parents) and I remember him shaving his beard off. I had to cancel on him as I was having a major issue with my parents on the day and he was super angry about the fact that he had to shave it off for no reason.
Guess that makes me realise he had to have known what he was doing, or he would have tried to look younger :(

Sorry, I know this is probably a lot of personal stuff thrown at you from a complete stranger - I guess for me it's a bit of a breakthrough but I can imagine it's a bit odd to read from a randomer on the internet haha! I'm so happy for you and the fact that you have a loving DH though. You both seem very self aware and kind, I'm hoping to be able to get to that stage at some point myself! :)

Sorry just realised I posted on my alternate account! I'm the OP haha. Also when I said "not suggesting in any way that it happened to you" I meant that it was an not an "accident", NOT denying your experiences. xx

** wouldn't have tried to look younger. Fuck me, sorry blame Friday night haha!

I actually feel kind of honoured to be part of your healing process OP so please don't feel you have anything to apologise for or explain. As for whether his apology made me feel better or worse, what you imagine is pretty much exactly the sequence of feelings I went through afterwards.

Validation to start with which felt like a relief, and then growing horror as the realisation dawned that he knew what he'd done, had probably known at the time what he was doing, and he did it anyway. That sent me into a downward spiral, I drank way too much and did way too many drugs during that time, not sure I realised why at the time but it's obvious looking back.

Now the only word I can find to describe how I feel about it is meh, it didn't really mean anything to me, it didn't change anything and it certainly didn't make up for what he'd done. I think it's pretty pointless trying to get in their heads tbh, our time is much better spent on understanding ourselves