Lending money to DF, making me ill.

[hithertoknownas]

Is DF what I call my dad?
I have name changed for this, very identifying if you know the situation and me. I am in a pickle.
Brief family background: DB and I definitely 'went to stately homes', and very expensive schools etc. Our mum had serious MH issues and we were often alone with her at home, I think I suffered most from her anorexia related mood swings and deep depression. Brother was utter golden child but also had a hard time. Dad classic enabler etc.
Brother and I now in late thirties - he has successfully battled alcoholism and has a lot of therapy, but leads a healthy happy life. We have a wonderful relationship. I am a recovered bulimic, have also had a lot of treatment and am proud to say that I parent much better than my mother did :)
Sorry if I am being long winded, trying to give some context.

We were financially comfortable growing up. However my dad set up own thing about 20 years ago and it has not been successful. it is financial consultancy work that very much comes and goes. He should have quit it years ago and got a steady salary, hindsight etc. Cut to 3 years ago and he asks to borrow money from DH and me. He had already used up his inheritance from his DM, and had borrowed (and paid back) from his own brother. So we lent him about £10000 which was returned when he had the funds, this happened again last year, and he has not paid it back. I have said it is will can wait (we can). He has also borrowed from and paid back my brother.

The issue(s) that I struggle with.... he is not open with my mum about borrowing from us, apparently is makes her 'suicidal', he calls me and tells me this and I feel boxed into a corner. Last year he asked me not to tell her as it would kill her, but I refused. Obviously it didn't kill her. DH and I tried to set up a better situation - we offered to lend them the deposit on an apartment that would be in our name but they would live in as they have been renting for years. This was rejected as according my DF they couldn't buy the right thing with the amount we had offered, and my DM would prefer to wait for him to have a massive pay day :(

Now we are here again. And I know if a few months they will run out of funds again. (They have a pension and DM works but doesn't earn huge amount)

I think everyone will shout at me for being an idiot... But I love them. My childhood was haunted by my mum threatening to leave/kill herself/starve herself.... And now I am stuck in the cycle again. But I love them, they are my parents, they spent so much money on me growing up. DH and I are reasonably comfortable but not earning as much as we used to, and we need our money for our children. DH is amazing and so patient and supportive. But he earns far more than me and he is getting more and more resentful. I think he is mostly resentful for how I am left a complete mess after my dad asks me for money.

If you are still reading this, thanks, I have the biggest knot in my stomach. I just don't know how to handle it all. I feel like scared child again.

Do you expect your children to pay for your living expenses because you are spending money on them now? No, of course not. You don't owe your parents financially and you don't need to fund them. And by the sounds of it you can't really afford to. You have been very generous so far but your parents situation is not sustainable and they, as adults, need to sort themselves out.

Very difficult situation and I can completely understand you wouldn't want to see them in dire straits. I think if they come asking for money again you need a plan. Talk to your DH he must understand you cant see your parents on the streets. This:

" we offered to lend them the deposit on an apartment that would be in our name but they would live in as they have been renting for years"

Perhaps is the way forward? If you still can manage this. Not negotiable, either they go along with it or they sort themselves out. Maybe your DB could part own it as well? I think this has to be a whole family conversation, as they get older it will only become harder and more complicated, better to sort something out now.

thanks both for replying. I feel pretty stuck, DF is also asking me (again today) not to mention to DM that loan is outstanding. I just wish I was better at coping with it all

Sounds like their mental health issues are used as an emotional stick to beat you with.
If he asks for money say you haven’t got it and ask for the loan back with money on top.
Become broken record,
“I haven’t got any money to loan you and I need our money back.” Keep saying it.

And say to him if you ask again dad I will have to tell mum.
Well done to you and your brother for rising above the toxic environment you were raised in.

I feel frustrated with myself that I can't manage my reaction better. I ended up at the osteopath today because my back went, and I have a knot in my stomach. I am trying to put in better boundaries with my dad. The truth is I love being close to him, in many ways I want to help him, but it is so problematic...

If you only feel close by giving him money when he asks then surely you are buying his affection? How would he react if you said no?
You also need to factor in your DHs feelings if he's feeling resentful.

You can't keep enabling their ineptitude.

Tell your dsd that you can wait for repayment of this loan for a while longer, but you haven't got any more available to lend. Tell him all funds have been allocated and there's nothing left in the pot.

Ask him to set up a repayment schedule for the existing loan.

If he realises there isnt a magic money tree that will bail him out every few months, he might actually take some positive action jobwise.

You need to be really strong and stick to your guns otherwise this cycle will perpetuate.

if you can be brave enough you do need to say to your father that his asking you to lie to your mother is cruel and unacceptable.
you say you have a good relationship with him but i think you have admit that as long as you keep enabling him in order to avoid awkwardness and tension then its not really.
Lies between you all and lending money when you have no confidence in how this will end is not healthy.
i'm sorry theres not an easy way around it - i've lived with this sort of secrets and silence, including around money and its utterly toxic.
you need to get your DH, DB and anyone else who can support finding a soloution together and sort out a plan to present to your parents

You are too focussed on why you feel you need to help them and a little too dismissive of how you are disregarding the needs and opinions of your DH and your children. its understandable but it will blow up at some stage and better that it does so now rather than x years and £x down the line

How old are they OP ? If DF gets a state pension could you not look at Pension Credit for a top up ? Does mum still have MH problems to the degree that her illness affects the amount of work she can do and/or requires 'care' . (Care doesn't have to mean someone coming in to help her - can just mean your dad has to provide emotional /practical support)

If so, she may also be entitled to a PIP or Attendance Allowance..

Thanks @disorganisedsecretsquirrel

@Pagwatch ooo it was hard to read your last comment, which probably speaks volumes. I definitely minimise the effect this must be having on DH

@SissySpacekAteMyHamster thanks, it helps to read these comments

ah, Im sorry if it sounded too harsh.
Ive got a lot of experience of working around family secrets and divided loyalties - i do have some idea of how hard it is. good luck

No idea. I don't why people on here use so many code words for family members!!

You've been drawn into a very complicated illusion here OP, and I wonder how much your suffering is tied to your unwillingness to admit to yourself that it's all an illusion that your parents use to get what they want from you, no matter how much it deprives your kids. Perhaps if you admitted this to yourself, it would hurt too much, so you indulge in the illusion instead?

The thing is, they are just two stupid, selfish people. They paid out in your childhood (not that you asked them to) - but who knows where that money really came from, probably a different set of mugs, whose goodwill they exhausted, so they've now moved on to their own children.

Your mother bleating on about suicide and starvation while lying on her proverbial fainting couch and your dad pretending to be a brooding Heathcliffian anti-hero or something... honestly it sounds like a pastiche of a Bronte novel.

They presumably live in the UK or another developed nation? If so, they can do what we all do, take stock of their finances, cut their cloth, and get on government assistance if needed. It wouldn't be a hardship, it would just be a normal, non-privileged sort of life. Their kids would occasionally get them groceries and take them out for the day (or not, if they're being arseholes), and life would carry on.

There is absolutely no need for you to support them. They just like an easy life, and they know if they turn the screws on you hard enough, you'll ensure they get it.

I encourage you to start opening your eyes to how absurdly melodramatic this all is. And the steep price your own family is paying for your not wanting to notice that...

Does it matter to you, at all, that your family's resources are being bled out in the service of keeping your parents in the lifestyle to which they're accustomed?

Also worth noting that you get something out of "not coping" with him asking for money - you're actually doing to your DH what your mum and dad do to you - rather than just taking accountability for saying no to your dad, you're indulging in your own emotions to the point that it's making you sick, which will in turn blackmail your DH into paying out.

This blackmail then neatly absolves you of your own responsibility to set boundaries and be a grown up. Not nice really is it.

I strongly encourage you to stop, take some breaths and start thinking rationally about breaking this very very silly cycle, for the good of your children. Don't create your own fainting couch to force your own family to start rescuing you. Then you're no better than your parents.

Hi OP,

In your first post you make much of the dysfunctional your relationship with your mother was/is but if I'm honest you seem to be minimising your fathers culpability here.

He was your parent too and especially in light of your mother's illness/behaviour had a duty of care to protect you - something he failed to do.

He's had 20 years to make a go of this business.

You're not being asked to finance a promising start up nor cover a temporary business cash flow issue.

The business is not, nor ever has been viable - it's been subsidised for many years by inheritance, loans and cash gifts.

In a way I find your fathers behaviour worse than your mothers - she is obviously unwell (not that this is an excuse for her behaviour to you and your brother in childhood) and that whilst does not justify her actions it does go a way to explaining them.

On the other hand your father has blindly ignored the chaos/damage around him and utterly failed to be proactive and take responsibility either for his children or his finances (note the parallel).

The level of manipulation he's subjecting you too is abhorrent and abusive and I can't help wonder at the dynamic of your parents relationship.

He's blackmailing you pure and simple and if I were your DH I'd be utterly pissed off.

You need to be investing your money in your primary family (ie you, your DH and your children) and not bailing out your hapless and manipulative father.

He needs to pay back the money he owes you but tbh I'd be prepared to write it off if necessary to stop this dynamic.

You already know the answer here OP I think - you just wanted reassurance that you're not a bad person for cutting off the finances (which you absolutely must do before you damage your relationship with your DH).

Don't get further involved either by helping them buy an apartment (it was a generous offer btw but the response to that also speaks volumes about their sense of entitlement).

Look up FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) if you haven't already because that's what your experiencing. The fear of admitting that both your parents are manipulative and abusive, obligation to their wellbeing as their child and guilt that your mothers health will worsen if you don't comply.

• Also worth noting that you get something out of "not coping" with him asking for money - you're actually doing to your DH what your mum and dad do to you - rather than just taking accountability for saying no to your dad, you're indulging in your own emotions to the point that it's making you sick, which will in turn blackmail your DH into paying out.

This blackmail then neatly absolves you of your own responsibility to set boundaries and be a grown up. Not nice really is it.*

Agree - I think you need to think hard on this OP.

I knew I would get the truth served up to me on a plate.

Thanks @rvby @DeRigueurMortis for not mincing your words

FOG google very helpful

I would say that yes it matters to me hugely that we are bleeding out our finances, but I do also live in fear of receiving a phonecall that they have topped themselves. Which obviously sounds hugely dramatic, but I spent a lot of my childhood with my mum very seriously unwell so I guess it is quite a deep seated fear.

I do appreciate being made to see this from a more objective viewpoint. Especially since my friends IRL would not speak in such stark terms to me.

Are you willing to pay forever to save yourself from the fear of their poor choices?

@Theladyofshalot well, no.

Hi OP,

I'm sure it's hard to hear but you're in danger of repeating the cycle with your DH that was heaped in you by your parents.

The one thing I think that can give people courage in these circumstances is the determination (once they've acknowledged what's happening) is not to inflict those behaviours on their loved ones.

Rather than view this as an issue that's about loving/helping/supporting your parents think about what are the right responses to protect/love/support/help you, your DH and children.

When you change the narrative in this way the course forward becomes not only easier but necessary and that will provide the strength for you finally stand up to your parents.

Good luck

@hithertoknownas

I would say that yes it matters to me hugely that we are bleeding out our finances, but I do also live in fear of receiving a phonecall that they have topped themselves. Which obviously sounds hugely dramatic, but I spent a lot of my childhood with my mum very seriously unwell so I guess it is quite a deep seated fear.

I do appreciate being made to see this from a more objective viewpoint. Especially since my friends IRL would not speak in such stark terms to me.

OP, as you are doing an excellent job facing up to hard truths, I will add another to the pile. People who use the threat of suicide to control you are using violence to manipulate. If you are seriously concerned call the police/ GP etc. But I would be suspicious of the manipulation behind the threat.

I hope that isn't too blunt, and of course you know the situtation more closely. I'd also be wary of where all the money is going. Gambling? Booze?

The thing is OP, if God forbid the worst happens and your parents did do something, then it would be their choice. Not yours. It's nothing to do with your actions really. IME the people who spend a lot of time talking about doing it, rarely do. Please do not make your own family suffer because of their actions. It's time to stand up and say no.

I am most grateful for everyone telling me to face up to what I have in front of me: my direct family. I feel like I have worked so hard to build my little family, without MH issues affecting our day to day lives. So it feels very prudent to watch that I don't slip down that way. I think I needed to hear the truth from (objective) strangers...

I actually just had a very honest and loving conversation with my DB about it all. Thank goodness both he and my DH are balanced and brave. They have both had lots of therapy