Lending money to DF, making me ill.

[hithertoknownas]

Is DF what I call my dad?
I have name changed for this, very identifying if you know the situation and me. I am in a pickle.
Brief family background: DB and I definitely 'went to stately homes', and very expensive schools etc. Our mum had serious MH issues and we were often alone with her at home, I think I suffered most from her anorexia related mood swings and deep depression. Brother was utter golden child but also had a hard time. Dad classic enabler etc.
Brother and I now in late thirties - he has successfully battled alcoholism and has a lot of therapy, but leads a healthy happy life. We have a wonderful relationship. I am a recovered bulimic, have also had a lot of treatment and am proud to say that I parent much better than my mother did :)
Sorry if I am being long winded, trying to give some context.

We were financially comfortable growing up. However my dad set up own thing about 20 years ago and it has not been successful. it is financial consultancy work that very much comes and goes. He should have quit it years ago and got a steady salary, hindsight etc. Cut to 3 years ago and he asks to borrow money from DH and me. He had already used up his inheritance from his DM, and had borrowed (and paid back) from his own brother. So we lent him about £10000 which was returned when he had the funds, this happened again last year, and he has not paid it back. I have said it is will can wait (we can). He has also borrowed from and paid back my brother.

The issue(s) that I struggle with.... he is not open with my mum about borrowing from us, apparently is makes her 'suicidal', he calls me and tells me this and I feel boxed into a corner. Last year he asked me not to tell her as it would kill her, but I refused. Obviously it didn't kill her. DH and I tried to set up a better situation - we offered to lend them the deposit on an apartment that would be in our name but they would live in as they have been renting for years. This was rejected as according my DF they couldn't buy the right thing with the amount we had offered, and my DM would prefer to wait for him to have a massive pay day :(

Now we are here again. And I know if a few months they will run out of funds again. (They have a pension and DM works but doesn't earn huge amount)

I think everyone will shout at me for being an idiot... But I love them. My childhood was haunted by my mum threatening to leave/kill herself/starve herself.... And now I am stuck in the cycle again. But I love them, they are my parents, they spent so much money on me growing up. DH and I are reasonably comfortable but not earning as much as we used to, and we need our money for our children. DH is amazing and so patient and supportive. But he earns far more than me and he is getting more and more resentful. I think he is mostly resentful for how I am left a complete mess after my dad asks me for money.

If you are still reading this, thanks, I have the biggest knot in my stomach. I just don't know how to handle it all. I feel like scared child again.

Hi OP ..having read your comments I think you need to see the situation for what it is.Your family whist you and your brother were growing up were/are highly disfunctional.From my reading of the situation you and your brother have had to fight tooth and nail and work on yourselves for years to overcome the obstacles you both faced with very little support from the very people who helped you get in such a state mentally.You should be very proud of yourself,yet here you are reduced to a wreck again by the very people who have contributed to this all your life. Your father playing divide and conquer ..wanting yu to carry him financially as and when he sees fit and holding you to randsome for helping him by trying to make you lie to your mum just like he does...this is not normal in any way shape or form.Make no wonder you are suffering as badly as you are.I think the reason you feel as you do is not the money at all its the fear of rejection from your father if you say no...you become no longer useful to him and you could be dropped.You may love your parents a great deal but could you hand on heart say they have your best intentions at the forefront of their existance? Would you treat your children like they have and continue to treat you? definately not I would suspect.The cost of having your parents in your life is greater than any money he wants.It comes at the cost of your health and well being and from my point of view its doing you no good at all..Every parent I know wants their child to be happy.loved .healthy and fulfilled yours seem to see you as an alibi an a cash cow..How dare he lay your mums suicidal thoughts squarely at your door..you are not to blame..thats the worst kind of abuse a parent can do..You do deserve so much more...I hope one day you find the strength to live your life for you and your dh and children ..the baggage you carry is too heavy and your df seems to think thats ok and its not and thats the sad part.Look after you and your own well being or you will never have a moments peace.

I'm glad you've spoken to your DB and would encourage you to speak openly to your DH as well given you say he's supportive.

So many children of abusive parents crave their love, simply because they have never had it in a meaningful way and think if only they do XYZ then they'll prove their "worth".

Sorry for the awful analogy but it's like a puppy who keeps being kicked by its owner but still keeps begging for attention.

The thing is parents like yours don't understand how to love, how to parent so you'll never get the relationship you deserve - ever.

You have to realise that whatever you do you won't influence who they are.

They are deeply damaged people and the only way forward is to interact with clear boundaries designed to protect you and your "primary" family.

If they don't like that then their response to is theirs to own whatever it may be.

@Sallycinammonbangsthedruminthe thank you for your words

@DeRigueurMortis you obviously know a reasonable amount about these kind of situations, any reading suggestions that will help me with strength and balance going forward?

Again, thanks for your help x

Hi OP,

I'm not a MH professional so I feel I've given the best advice already that is appropriate in that context.

To summarise:

1. Accept that both you're parents (not just your mother) are damaged and toxic. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to go NC with them but it does mean having clear boundaries and realising that you can't change them, only change your reaction/behaviour towards them.

1. There are a lot of resources (books and online videos) that discuss FOG and toxic parents. The Dr. Susan Forward book Toxic Parents is a good place to start. Understanding your parents behaviour is a good place to start in working out how best you (with the support of your DH and DB) can respond to it.

The fact your DF also taps your DB for money means I would suggest if possible that you plan a "joint" response which will help you back each other up so your DH can't play you off against each other.

1. Focus on your primary family (DH, children and DB). You're lucky you have a supportive network around you. Talk openly to them. Your DH especially will have a more objective view than yourself.

When you're asked to "help" your parents first think about the impact on your primary family. If what you are expected to give (emotionally or financially) to your parents negatively impacts them then simply don't do it. Children don't "owe" their parents. It's not a mutually beneficial contract in the sense children didn't asked to be born - parents choose to have children and should accept responsibility for their emotional and financial needs. It's not a "loan" you have an obligation to pay back.

1. Be kind to yourself. You've been through a lot (as has your brother) and it sounds like you've done a great job in overcoming a lot of hurdles created by your parents that you should never have faced. Take strength from what you've already proven you can achieve to move further forward.

Good luck

Just one more suggestion - I'd get a copy of the Susan Forward book for your DB as well.

Given you're so close I think reading like a "book club" would help you both - so agree to read a couple of chapters then chat with each other about how what was discussed resonated with you both about your parents and what you feel you've learned from it.

I think it would help you both have the same vocabulary and understanding in how/why your parents behave as they do and agreeing a way forward you're both comfortable with to support each other and have a united front without feeling "guilt" because you can reinforce with each other why that's necessary.

Apologies typo "which will help you back each other up so your DH can't play you off against each other. "

Obviously that should have been DF not DH.

I'm not suggesting your DH is trying to play games!

I think lending your DF money (which is repaid) is very different from giving your DF regular injections of cash.

The former can be seen as helping DF through peaks and troughs in his business - if he always pays it back, the business is (just about) viable, and you're just helping out with his cashflow.

The latter would be you propping up a failing business, and allowing your parents to slowly drain money that should be spent on your children.

Given he hasn't paid back the previous loan you made, I would say 'no' to any more. What's your DB's view?

Is the money coming from joint finances between your dh and yourself?
If it was coming from you then I'd say of course say no, but understandable if you don't. However if it's coming from a joint pot and your dh isn't happy with this then you have to stop it. No ifs or buts. That's his money too, and he probably doesn't want to say no to you but clearly the risk of giving his money is too high.

No no no. Your parents are not more important than you, your husband or your children. Even of they had been the best parents ever, their financial needs do not trump those of your little family. But seeing as how awful they were for decades, how manipulative they remain, it is nonsense to put them ahead of your kids/ husband. They have taken so much from you already, how much more can you give? Your needs matter too - it is not on you to save your parents and it is wicked of them to keep asking you to do so.

Toxic Parents is good, you will find a LOT to think about. But if you’ve never had therapy it could be worth talking to someone - sounds like there is a LOT to dig into. to you OP.

Don't lend him any more money. You're enjoying the drama too much & your DH is rightly pissed off.

OP you are living on your wits! You need to stop enabling your DF. He’s clearly in a situation of his own making and lying to your DM is only going to make the situation worse. You are not responsible for what they decided to spend on you as children. That was your parents decision to make! You’re feeling guilty for your DM’s severe mental health issues and again, that is not your fault and neither should you feel guilty about it. Your parents need to live within their means. DF should look for a job paying a wage and stop ploughing your money into a failing business/for living expenses. You offered to help them in a practical way by providing a roof over their heads but they weren’t satisfied and wanted a more luxurious lifestyle/ bigger house?! I think you have to end this now. You can be kind about it but also blunt.

thanks all. hard truths are helping...

I draw the line though @EileenAlanna - I do not enjoy the drama, I just don't know much else.

Also, have had a lot of therapy thank goodness, could possibly do with some more, living abroad at the moment and it is not as easy to access as it was. Hence asking for book recommendations. Already plowing through Toxic Parents

Zoom therapy works surprisingly well. Your body’s physical reaction is telling how tough this is to deal with.

I see a lot of recommendations for Children of Emotionally Immature Parents as well which could hit the mark too?

I think you need to accept that they won't ever change. So that means if you don't change you'll be lending/giving them money forever.
So at some point you have to draw a line, no more money whatever the reason.
Can you start to tie up your money so nothing is available, or tell them that's what's happened. I wouldn't bother telling your mum, just draw a solid line.

OP, my sister and I had incredibly disfunctional divorced parents. They were marginally better to her as she was the older ‘more difficult’ one. They were shockingly neglectful towards me (would have ss involved these days).

As a result I had to develop much stronger boundaries. I set the terms on which I was willing to relate and stuck to them. I expected no parenting from them, and if they kicked off I treated them like unruly overgrown toddlers and ignored their behaviour and their sulking.

It actually really worked. They started to tow the line and I realised they did want a relationship with me and if I was clear about what was acceptable they would behave. They just really struggled with the whole being a responsible parent thing, so when that was no longer expected of them they did better.

By the time my father died I had a close and loving relationship with him, and I was able to grieve for the loss of what we had without having to grieve for the loss of what we had never had, which made it much easier. My sister had never let go the hope that he would one day be a good dad, so his death hit her much harder, as it brought it home that she now never would get that from him.

Similarly with my mother, although she was a much worse mother to me than to her, I have now been able to reset the relationship to one that works for me, and somewhat ironically she is a great gm to my two, whereas my sister and her dc effectively have no relationship with her. My sister says she still can’t get over what our mum did to me, and struggles to set boundaries which she feels will not be respected.

I guess that is a very very long way of saying that actually enforcing clear, reasonable boundaries is good for everyone involved, including the parents in question.

I have actually told DF that there are no more 'loans' coming his way. DH and I have had some very healing conversation in the last 2 days - we are both WFH so lots of time to talk. Nothing has been discussed with my DM, and as it stands won't be unless she straight out asks me whether there is outstanding money owed to us.

DH seems so relieved at my realisation which is telling for me. Before he was very much - I will support whatever you feel we have to do. Now he clearly feels able to be more honest and say I no longer want to do this. I am grateful for the honesty on here for making me see that.

I haven't actually spoken to DF (we normally communicate on FaceTime) and I know that actually chatting will feel uncomfortable. But I don't have to do that until I am ready. And I will read lots on boundaries before I do

I told him no more loans in an email. He replied "Understood. Dxxx"

I am very grateful for the wisdom and time of you strangers on the internet. I normally would never have done this but I was clearly ready to hear the truth and probably knew what it was anyway...

Well done you. You have your husband to help you if you wobble a bit!

Well done OP.

I'm glad you spoke with your DH.

Hopefully you can now both move forward in unison without this emotional burden on your shoulders.