Toxic Parents-brilliant

[jenk1]

just thought id start a thread for this and thanks to the person who recommended it.

it has opened my eyes so much, for years i have been depressed and felt worthless and this book has shown me why, in the 3 weeks since i have been reading it i really feel like a changed person, im no longer at my parents beck and call and my self esteem is getting better.

has anyone else been affected by this book, id love to hear your stories.

I honestly feel that the choice is out of my hands. I feel desperate and terrified when I have contact with her. I know its the little girl inside me, but the feelings are still very real.
Last time I visited the UK with 3 month old DD, I offered to meet up with her in a coffee shop somewhere. Instead of jumping at the chance, the threats started. Hate mail through my grandmother, calling the place I was staying and screaming down the phone. Threats that she was going to take me to court to excercise her grandparents rights Its so sad that she <span class="italic">would</span> have done something like that to me if she could have. Luckily she has no rights. So how can I let a vicious, violent person into my daughters life? My milk nearly dried up last time I visited the UK, and that was without seeing her.
So really, the choice is more than out of my hands. I have no obligation to subject myself or my child to any of that.
To be honest, if she treated any member of the public the way she treats me, she would have been sectioned a long time ago. But because Im her daughter, apparently thats okay, and some people even believe I should let her carry on, because shes my mother

Sobernow -My brother is the same, he won?t contemplate having children as he says 'why would I want to inflict me on any child?'
I always tell him that he can do abetter job than our mother ever did but he seems adamant.

I'm glad this thread is still going, I have just read through the posts since yesterday, as I have been thinking about it a lot and talking with dh about it. I, like many of you, over think my role as a mummy (I use mummy rather than mother as I am much more warm and fluffy than a ?mother? or my 'mother' was ever, there is a distinct difference and I like that) I constantly seek reassurance from my dh that I have done or said the right thing in any given context to do with bringing up ds1. I simply just don?t trust my own judgement and really why would I when I never had firm, clear, fair boundaries? My mother would blow up over anything and lash out so we all crept round her on a daily basis, today this was okay, yesterday it sent her over the edge. I try to be constant with ds1 and discuss everything with dh so we work as a team not behind each others' backs. (My mother would be awful to us then smile as my dad walked in from work)

I fell apart when I had my 1st child hence I am having psychology sessions and will be for at least 6 months after my ds2 is born. My greatest fear was of turning into my mother and the anger that was released then was like nothing I had ever experienced before. I was/am a teacher -how could I loose my temper so quickly over immaterial things? I think really, I had just run out of patience, couldn?t be the calm one anymore, and couldn?t see things from anyone else?s point of view. I'd just had enough 'fighting' just to get through each day.

I found my mother has been one of the greatest influences in my life. Yes, I can see that now! I strove to get a good education, degree ect specifically to give myself options when I was in a marriage. I could stay/leave and know that I could support myself so I know I stay with my dh because I want to unlike my mother who married at 19 and was then stuck, as she felt. I do over analyse but I do think one of my greatest attributes is that I self reflect. Have I said the right thing? Is that the best way to deal with this situation? Instead of this being a negative I turn it into a positive -look how our parents weren't good self reflectors and look how it affected them and their lives...

Like I said in my earlier posts, I won?t have contact and unless she sobers up, acknowledges what she has been like and even slightly apologises she will never be a part of my life. I have learned also from her that all different kinds of people behave unacceptably towards you throughout your life and you don?t have to accept it from anyone, even if they are your family.

I have read this book, as an ex-p of mine was reading it...and she 'invested heavily' in it. It should come with health warnings about
1."generalising being just that"
2. "Toxic is a chemical state, not a human relationship state"
3." take the notions in this book out of perspective and you'll fuck up what good side to your parental relationship you ever had".
4."It isn't a panacea - and we are responsible as adults for the damage we do."

The really undermining things about most self-help books are they are read at times when people are vulnerable and highly suggestable.

My ex-p's mother could be pretty unpleasant and self-concerened at times, and no doubt did contribute to many mild neuroses and pre-occupations of ex-p. But diving into this book wholesale shut off lots of other potential ways of improving things betwee them. The more ex-p crowed about how excellent this book was, the more I saw the termination of what she was supposed to have been improving.

Agreeing with much of Sobernow's posts. Do read this book critically.

Panfried,
TOxic is a word we use for want of a better one (a rose by any other name and all that)
It is impossible to stress how difficult it must be to make a comment on such an emotive issue without having gone through it yourself. If you had had a disastrous reaction to the book on account of your own toxic parents, your slating of it may have more credibility.
But seeing as youre just making observations based on your partners attempt to overcome her toxic upbringing, its hard for me to see your point.
Your partner had decided that change needed to happen. That is why the book was in her hands. She would have kept going with or without book. If you saw "good" in her family, that just means you fell for the bait. TOxic people are very good at convincing others of their "normality" and of the "craziness" of their victims.

I'm with your ex-P, she (or he?) grew up in that family, you didn't. If the book resonated then there was a reason. It takes huge amounts of courage to face your parents with the fallout of having grown up in that kind of family and no-one does it lightly.

As children in this type of family our biggest fear was and still is of abandonment by our parents and no-one therefore goes on to risk losing their parents altogether as adults without a very good reason.

My DH doesn't go much on self-help books but he supported me totally on this one as he sees my mother for what she really is. That is why he is my family now and my mother isn't.

Maybe you have your own agenda/issues going on Pumpkin to do with your ex-P and your relationship that has caused you to have negative feelings about the book?

I remember reading "Women who love too much" just before I split up from my first long-term relationship - my soon to be ex-P at the time completely derided the book. It was the best thing I ever read and did. It was the beginning of huge changes in my life which have all been for the better.

If you still have feelings for your ex maybe you should support him/her and trust him/her as knowing his/her own truths and being capable of making his/her own sensible decisions?

Panfried
I do see your point of self help books shouldn?t be read when your vulnerable but as the others have said, you were an outsider o this situation. Staring any form of therapy brings up issues children of 'interesting' parents would rather leave well alone and, let's face it, we all know counselling gets a whole lot worse before it gets any better.
I think the fact that you ex even wanted to read this book shows there were issues she/he felt that needed addressing. After all it doesn?t sound like the type of read you'd like for a light hearted book before bedtime.

I agree with the other who said that 'interesting' parents are very good at projecting their nastiness onto their children making out their children to have the problems. I have a hard time convincing new people I meet that my mother really was as bad as I say and I hate the 'oh, go on, she is your mother' and 'you only get one mother you know' comments. To face my past, to finally say 'no more' to both my mother and father, to have children and doubt my own parenting abilities due to the warped upbringing I had, to see my middle brother not want children because of his childhood has been the hardest thing I have ever done and something not to undertake lightly.

My dh hasn?t always understood but he always supported. I think it takes a brave partner to say 'I don?t understand how you feel but I'm here for you if you need to talk/rant and rave'

If you?re ever in this situation again, I'd really try to be more supportive rather than dismissive of the 'self help' books. Your ex sought this book for a reason...

Sorry, Panfiredpumpkin, just realised you said your ex was a "she". I missed that.

Gosh, Sakura. That was a bit toxic wasn't it?? I wasn't "slating" it, at all!! A less defensive and more balanced way of looking at it was that I said it needs to come with a pretty clear health warning, forthe reasons I stated. There is alot of interesting analysis in it.

and no,it didn't have much of a significant bearing on our relationship, is the best way of putting it.

Panisagirl

Sometimes there is not enough good in the relationship with your parents to save. Or in my case, want to save.

I suspect you don't have a smooth relationship with your parents and wish to deny that and deride others who wish to acknowledge there are problems and deal with them.

Perhaps you would like to talk further about your relationship with your parents here? It may help.

Well, thanks for the offer of ventilating on my relationships with my parents, but they are/were utterly fine, IME. They were both loving and supportive, and I don't feel any need to expand on that.

I did, however, go through day by day the "Toxic Parent" thing with my ex-p's relationships, with her mother especially.

The reaction on this thread to my expression of this book needing a "health warning" and no more, suggests that I have spoken a heresy about being careful about taking all of this as something as "guidelines not tram lines." If it assist readers/posters in their difficulties with their parents, then great! All I am saying here is 'be careful', especially with a text that labels relationships as "toxic", a word that is non-specific.

I'll happily leave you to it.

No, not toxic Pan (believe me, toxic is nothing similar to my post), but I agree I was a little defensive. Its just that you must understand that my reading your post about you saying that your ex-p should have tried to make the best of it with her family, instead of attempting change in the only way she knew how- well, it kind of hurts. We have enough people, who dont know what were going through, invalidating our experience as it is. As I say, this is a very emotive issue. You can only really know what youre talking about if you have gone through it yourself. I would never dream of questioning the way someone tried to overcome sexual abuse, for example, unless Id gone through it myself.

"your ex-p should have tried to make the best of it with her family"

with respect, I didn't say this.

I know her mother was/is nasty and unpleasant. I've seen it, and still do as my dd is here grandchild. I do my best, as does ex-p, to minimise contacts. I am not underestimating the analysis of the book. At all. Just wishing to mention a word of caution when the prevailing ethos appeared to be that this is a 'one fits all' belief.

Hi, before I post I just want to comment on the lack of profiles when people post on this topic.

Why???

My parents were horrid to me (toxic if you like - though I personally don't), that wasn't my fault. I am not like them. I will not be name changing or anyless lacking in profile than I am on other threads! (If indeed it is not mere conincidence).

I think that threads like these, books on the topic and support and debate are incredibly useful and necessary tools in our quest to become more than we achieved emotionally at the hands of our parents.

I'd like to sit on the fence and say that I strongly feel that the advised confrontation with parents is necessary. You don't necessarily have to have your parent 'receive' that confrontation i.e. you could write a letter to them but never send it, but addressing what your issues are is surely important.

If you and I were friends but I felt aggreived by something you'd done (whether you realised it or not) surely the steps towards resolution go like this.

I tell you what it is that you've done that upset me.
You then get to respond to that.
Depending on your response we progress from there.

Have I got this wrong? (Not a rhetorical question, I accept that this may just be the result of my warped thinking).

I haven't read Toxic Parents but I've been considering it for a while as I suspect I'm an ideal candidate. I love to read books whatever their topic however I do confess that what offends me about this book is the title for exactly the reasons that have been outlined in this thread. However, with time I become more open to the 'rose by any other name' theory. I suspect the title would be long and awkward if it were more appropriate.

The reasons I want(ed - not sure I require its services now) to read this book were for reasons outlined by other posters too. First I didn't want children, then I did. (Looking back it's not to be conincidence that my feelings changed after years of not speaking to my mother). Now I have children (and risked her meeting them, not a decision I took lightly) I discover that she is still unchanged and has demonstrated that she has no more respect for them as human beings as she did for my siblings or I. (Hence I think I don't require the book as no-one will be ill treating my children so long as I'm here and living and breathing, so she's OUT of my life).

I'm not sure if I'm making any points (or sense here - excuse me, it's the first time I've ever written on the subject). One thing I'd like to pick up on is someone commented earlier to the effect that daughters are less forgiving towards their mothers. I'm not sure this is true. Both my parents were awful but the reason I have a relationship wth my father is because when confronted he explained what he could, confessed that he couldn't remember other bits or accepted his bad behaviour. He apologised too. (Admittedly he's had some pretty big life changes since my childhood during which he's grown, my mother still wallows in the past).
I have never heard my mother say the word sorry to any member of my family. Ever. I don't think she ever will. She denies that she ever behaved as she did and blames it all on us children (I'm apparently responsible for everything from the break up of her marriage to the death (from a medical condition) of my brother.

That's part of the reason I'm 'hard' on her, it's because she accepts no responsibility for her actions.

It's weird every day I see my children and I love the just a little bit more every day and then some times I cry that neither of my parents could see the beauty and promise in me enough to love and cherish me as they should have.

I too have parenting rules and guess what they're EXACTLY the same as those of other posters. I also have 'spotters'. i.e. people like my sister and dd's god parents who know all about (well the majority) of my upbringing, are emotionally strong and fair people who I have made promise they will tell me if I show any signs of repeating my parents behaviour.

I don't know what a profile is - never looked at anyone elses either. If it shows who you are in RL then I wouldn't do it to protect the identity of myself and my family and anyone else being discussed. Surely that's the idea of having nicknames?

PanisaGirl,

By your admission, you did not have a difficult relationship with your parents. You are of course entitled to your opinion but it is not really based on experience is it? As you say you experienced it vicariously through your ex DP and her relationship with her parents but with respect if you have not lived it yourself you cannot begin to understand the far reaching effects of day after day of physical, emotional and verbal abuse from the people who are supposed to love you the most not as children but as adults too and how this colours every single aspect of your life.

I don t believe that one fits all either but for those who HAVE been abused to have found so much to help them and so much common ground in this book and its ideas tells me that the author has got something right don t you think? Also Toxic Parents is an umberella term - there are many different types of toxic parent and many different ways of dealing with them so I don t think describing the strategies in this book as a One Fits All solution is at all accurate.

Must admit I was unable to find anything toxicin Sakuras post or indeed any of the others. Had you been waiting to be able to say that? Thought having a little dig like that quite unhelpful myself when it is clear from all of the posts that everyone on here is striving NOT to be toxic and really only looking for and trying to offer support.

Try reading the post My Mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry and maybe you will understand the relevance of this book to the people on this thread and that one.

Sorry, I don't mean to side line the debate. MAybe it's not called a profile but if you look at the blue banner giving the name and time of posting then at the right hand side you can see an exclaimation mark and an envelope. If the poster has a profile (which they create themselves so it shouldn't give away any info you don't want disclosed) then between the exclaimation and envelope is a pencil.

I just noticed that on both this and My mother has cut me out of her life thread (an amazing support by the way to everyone who posts there!) there are few pencils.

I assumed (probably incorrectly) that this was down to name changing. The change of name is totally fair enough by the way but for myself I very much feel that one of the biggest tools a 'toxic' parent has in their itinery is closing a child down and stopping them talking whether that be through embarrasment, or because the child is worried about the consequences or whatever, so I'm big on talking. (I say I'm big on talking, I rarely have the guts but I keep trying).

That's all I was banging on about this morning.

"
By your admission, you did not have a difficult relationship with your parents. You are of course entitled to your opinion but it is not really based on experience is it?"

am struggling a bit to make sense of this. Not having a difficult relationship with parents isn't an admission to make. It's a statement. And of course it IS based on experience. My experience.

The 'toxic' bit comes from a total misreading of that which I have written. This has been repeated again. Appear to be going round and round here, so I will withdraw. But, really, best wishes to all who read this book and benefit from it.

Panisagirl,

If all you can contribute to this thread is picking up on what you consider to be linguistic inconsistencies and making cheap shots then I am thankful to see you go - for the second time. TBH I have found you very negative on what was a really supportive and helpful thread, and all of this based on extremely flimsy knowledge of the subject matter. So BYE.

I think it was very clear from what Amethyst wrote that she was saying that if Pan had a good relationship with her parents then she wasn't really in a position to comment on the book in question or its readers.

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I think that suggesting the book should come with a health warning is perhaps a little patronizing to those of us who have found perhaps for the first time someone validating our feelings in black and white. And lets face it you could say that about any literature or media - from the Bible to the Daily Mail where strong opinions are expressed. These don't come with health warnings, because there is no suggestion that the people who read them are in need of such a warning (although some of them probably are).

I am sure Pan meant well, but just because we are searching for answers and indeed vulnerable because of the families we have grown up in doesn't mean we are potential moony candidates! If you are still lurking Pan then mayybe you would like to have a look at the thread mentioned and you will see why this issue is so important to some of us. It may also give you a better understanding of what it is like to grow up in this type (avoiding the T word!) of family.

BTW one of the reasons I liked this book is precisely BECAUSE it flew in the face of many (religious)doctrines and social norms, ie honour your father and mother, forgive the people that hurt you, etc.