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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Toxic Parents-brilliant

70 replies

jenk1 · 05/10/2007 11:26

just thought id start a thread for this and thanks to the person who recommended it.

it has opened my eyes so much, for years i have been depressed and felt worthless and this book has shown me why, in the 3 weeks since i have been reading it i really feel like a changed person, im no longer at my parents beck and call and my self esteem is getting better.

has anyone else been affected by this book, id love to hear your stories.

OP posts:
Elizabetth · 06/10/2007 13:23

I think people recommend the book because they think it might be helpful to people in certain situations. It's not a diagnosis. Advice is there to be taken or discarded as people see fit.

I can understand your discomfort with the idea of labeling people, Sobernow. Alice Miller doesn't label parents, she names the behaviour that causes damage to children (alcoholism would be one of those - I don't think it's possible to grow up undamaged in an alcoholic family, speaking as a child of an alcoholic). Miller also doesn't recommend any particular course of action towards parents who have been abusive either e.g. the confrontation letter. I've found her books incredibly useful -

www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php

Amethyst8 · 06/10/2007 14:05

I agree that people should not go through life blaming others for their behaviour. However I have found that the only person I know who had done that is my "toxic" mother. I certainly don t. I am my own harshest critic. I don think anyone I have ever met myself has used their abusive childhood as a reason for their behaviour although I know this does happen. I have found that the people I have known who have been abused as children including myself and my sister tend to blame THEMSELVES for their parents behaviour thinking that if only they could be a better more likeable person then maybe their parents would like them more. I have believed that I am a truly awful and disgusting person in my life because my OWN parents did not like me not just as a child but as an adult either. I don t think it has ever been a case for me of "blaming" my parents but this book and some counselling have been very helpful in helping me to understand and not to "blame" myself either.

As for caring for aged parents and it being an obligation - sorry I think that is complete crap. Even if I do nothing for my parents when elderly and ailing they will be better off than I ever was as a small and defenseless child because they will not have anyone physically and verbally abusing them. They will not be living in terror of a member of their own family.

Sobernow · 06/10/2007 14:10

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Sobernow · 06/10/2007 14:12

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Amethyst8 · 06/10/2007 14:32

Sobernow, I know you weren't . I know I tend to get on my soap box about this subject matter because it is so much a part of me.

I know what you mean about wondering if what you yourself do could be seen as toxic by our children. After all the bench mark will be different won t it? They will not have experienced what we have and in comparison to our upbringings we would not consider outselves be toxic parents but they might. I think about this every single day. Whenever I have any kind of negative interaction with my kids, I stew over it for hours afterwards. Even if I didn't really do anything wrong and it was just every day discipline or trying to prevent them from growing up to be obnoxious I can never be confident that I have reacted in the right way and it will not be damaging for them.

My basic rules, are no physical punishment whatsoever, no name calling, no emotional withdrawing even when i can t stand the sight of them, try not to shout too much in anger - though I have failed miserably on this one on occasion and always, always apologise if you are in the wrong. I am never scared either of changing my mind to allow them to have or do something they want if I feel that I have said no unfairly and the final one is treat them, their views and wants as equal to my own and DH. My parents did NONE of this, ever and I am 36 now. I can only hope this is enough and that will look upon me sympathetically for the mistakes I do make.

jenk1 · 06/10/2007 14:38

see thats where im different, i CANNOT understand my mothers behaviour towards me and my siblings now that i HAVE children, especially my daughter, i cant get past how she could have treated me this way.

my children are the most precious things in the world to me and i cherish them and love them and i just couldnt be like my parents were to me and my siblings towards my 2.

OP posts:
Sobernow · 06/10/2007 15:25

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Earlybird · 06/10/2007 15:26

Those of us with extreme parents have deep and permanent damage to deal with. Even after having done extensive psychotherapy, my emotional perspective on things is often warped. Quite simply - I often don't trust my judgement.

I guess at the crux of it, our emotional intelligence is stunted/never developed properly. You can understand that fact/work to compensate for it, but it is always there in the background. It is especially hard to move on/stop blaming when we become parents ourselves. We know the sort of parent we want to be, but our personal experience/frame of reference is deeply flawed, so it is difficult (if not impossible) to know specifically what a healthy/positive response would be in any given situation. Every day, as I aim to parent dd with kindness and love, I am reminded in big/little ways how inadequate and cruel my own parents were.

Sometimes I feel quite angry at how, no matter how much emotional rehabilitative 'work' I do, I will never never never be able to change my past. It's a fact, and it happened. I can only hope to minimise the effects of it.

I don't know if I have the ability to be a 'good' parent, and that is the main reason why I very nearly didn't have children.

Sobernow · 06/10/2007 15:28

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Sobernow · 06/10/2007 15:30

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Amethyst8 · 06/10/2007 16:44

Earlybird, I reached the age of 30 positive that I would never have children. I did not believe that I could ever parent in a decent and loving way and could not bear the thought of any children I might have being hurt by me and my anger. Just thought I would be as bad as my Mother. She always said "Violence breeds violence" and I suppose I just absorbed that. In my thirties I met someone who wanted kids and I, having had counselling and read lots of "Self Help" books felt like maybe I could do it after all. But I do wonder who many people out there still carry the legacy of what their parents did to them and never experience parenthood because of it. My sister was the same as me, put it off and put it off and then became ill and now can never have children. Maybe I shouldnt blame my parents for that but I do. Having my kids was the single thing that finally made me realise I was not what my parents said I was and made me stop caring about them or what they thought because I knew I had to protect my kids from them. Everytime I deal with my kids in the opposite way that my parents would do I feel empowered. It is just so sad to me that people who are perfectly capable of being decent parents deny themselves the chance to do so because of their parents.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 06/10/2007 17:42

Hi Amethyst

re your comment:-
"But I do wonder how many people out there still carry the legacy of what their parents did to them and never experience parenthood because of it"

Some not inconsiderable number I would imagine.

Earlybird · 06/10/2007 18:08

I think as children of toxic parents, the tendency is to go to extremes yourself: either 'copy' what your parents taught in your own adult life (probably experiencing depression and perhaps masking pain via drugs, alcohol, promiscuity, etc), or become a determined-to-do-it-differently 'overthinker'.

Anyone who reads my posts on Mnet (or indeed knows me in RL) knows without a doubt which category is mine.

OrmIrian · 06/10/2007 18:28

".... I do wonder how many of us will be considered as having behaved in a toxic way towards our own children when we are completely unaware of it. "

God, so do I sobernow! I had a largely happy childhood but a very disatified and insecure mother (due to an appalling level of emotional neglect - worse because it was casual and not deliberate). She left her mark on me emotionally even though I never feel I could point to one instance when she hurt me in any conventional sense. I spent years being socially inept and totally unable to have the kind of easy-going friendships that most people take for granted. And made up for it by being a complete doormat - anything needed doing, I'd do it! I spent most of my late teens and 20s when I could have done anything and gone anywhere, being a bloody Cinderella And now, in my 40's I feel as if I'm a drudge and nothing else, and my life has shrunk to a tiny horizon at a time when I don't have the freedom to do anything about it. It has made me frustrated and angry and I know that I take this out of my kids - not often, but sometimes. So am I a toxic parent? I certainly feel like an inadequate parent much of the time. Was it my mum who made me like that? Was it her mother who did that to her (or her whole extended family more like)? I could never use that label to my mum as I've spent so many years protecting and bolstering her up - I always see her as a damaged child.

It's fascinating and disturbing, and a subject I've only really started to think about recently.

Pages · 06/10/2007 20:37

Many of you have made some really interesting points (Earlybird, Elizabeth) and echoed my feelings. It IS an interesting subject, so apologies for the essay that follows...

Might I suggest that you read the book, Sobernow, and see if it resonates with you? As a couple of people have said, if it doesn't then maybe your mother wasn't "toxic" (the term is really only a loose one invented my Susan Forward, it's not a diagnosis). Personally, for me, it was like reading my life story on almost every page, but in a way that supported my reality and truths at last, instead of my mother's version of reality.

If it makes you hate your parents then you are still dependently attached to your parents. If it raises uncomfortable feelings then maybe they are feelings that need to be addressed? A book can't MAKE you do anything. Everything I read is digested and the bits I agree with stay with me and the bits I don't don't!

Toxic Parents didn't make me hate my parents, but it did make me see my family for what it really is and for what I have always known in my heart that it really is, and it made me want to address this. Having your own truths endorsed my someone else is crucial to a healthy ego and self-esteem. I was a child without a voice at the time the abuse and neglect occurred and I swallowed the family myth that it wasn't that bad, and accepted the blame (like so many of you) for my mother's mistakes. That was a huge burden which I have carried all my life, and as my mother has't changed, she was still trying to force me to carry it (along with my siblings) up until a year or so ago.

What the book did for me (along with a ton of support from you mnetters!) was to make me love and accept myself, and see things as they really are instead of living in the mythical world created by my mother which denied anything whereby the truth reflected badly on her. It is true that we don't all remember things accurately and memory can indeed be unreliable but, as Alice Miller says, the feelings stored in the body usually ARE reliable and if you FEEL when you read the book that you have carried the burden, blame and shame for the rest of your family all your life then you probably have.

Sobernow, the fact that you are asking these questions (as someone said to me on an earlier thread!) is evidence that you are not a "toxic parent". Toxic Parents don't question themselves. They have an inbuilt sense of entitlement and infallibility and are never wrong. Every parent makes mistakes, the book is not written for parents or children of "average" families - it is for adult children of abusive or emotionally unavailable parents who (for whatever reason) have caused deep and lasting damage to their offspring. I doubt very much whether your children fall into this category, Sobernow!

As for the confrontation, actually Alice Miller DOES advocate this, she says in more than one of her books that it is not necessarily the actual abuse or neglect that causes the long-term damage, it is the inability of the child to tell the parent how they feel and have that acknolwedged and respected that causes the real damage. All parents make mistakes but we are not talking about the odd smack, shout or emotional absence that occurs against a backdrop of deep and enduring love for your child; "Toxic Parents" is for those of us who have been belittled,ignored or physically, sexually or verbally abused throughout our formative years when we should have been protected and cared for, or who have grown up in an emotional desert or who have been loved conditionally on very specific terms.

Susan Forward explains very clearly why she recommends a confrontation. Quite simply, because it works. Alice Miller is also agreed that what you don't hand back you hand on to the next generation. I am talking from experience when I tell you that confronting my mother is probably the most liberating and (for my children, I feel) important thing I have ever done. Years of banging cushions and screaming in therapy would never have achieved the same result. But you do have to be prepared for the reaction from your parents and siblings which is rarely a positive one.

A parent with a healthy ego will be able to listen to and hear their child's complaints and reinforce their child's truths and feelings without defensiveness or blame. An unhealthy parent and family system is unlikely to support you. I have been outcast from my family but I don't care. I feel free in a way I have never ever done in the whole of my life, and the future feels bright, and full of possibility. DH and all my close friends have noticed a hugh change in me, and my relationship with DH has transformed beyond belief because when he is cross, or just quiet, I no longer crumble and fall apart, my reactions to him are adult ones, not my child in crisis reactions to the the early threat of abuse or abandonment. Likewise, I don't claim to be a perfect parent but I do love my children constantly and deeply, no matter whether they are behaving well or badly. I believe they are aware of that at all times.

Sobernow, Susan Forward also discusses how to approach confrontation with an elderly or infirm parent. I do believe the example you gave is an exception, and while any 82 year old is likely to have health problems which will be affected by the shock of a confrontation, a healthy person will not die from being spoken to with your truths or even being verbally attacked. If that were the case I would have been dead a thousand times over as a child (often wished I was, but it never happened). However, the confrontation is a personal thing and I respect anyone who feels it is not for them. It is certainly something that needs much consideration and rehearsal and should not be done in haste.

Pages · 06/10/2007 20:45

Blimey, that post was a record even for me!

I meant "invented by" not "my" Susan Forward. Of course she is not "my" Susan Forward.

Pages · 06/10/2007 21:36

PS (in my usual fashion!) Just running through the thread again and wanted to say that I am completely amazed at some of you fab women (Muppetgirl, Duke, Amethyst and Sobernow) who have risen above your past and become so determined to break the cycle.

Sobernow, felt I had to comment though on what you say about your two dc and how what they complain about is nothing compared to what you went through, this does set off alarm bells for me (sorry!). My mother was abused as a child and she once told me that "if I'd had half the love you had that would have been enough". Half of not enough is not enough! I feel strongly that you can't compare and measure pain, a person's pain is their pain and as adults we are our children's caretakers, and I don't believe it is up to our dc to absorb and understand that we had a tough upbringing too and that they have got it easy in comparison. It's up to us to deal with our crap so that our dc get the best lives and the maximum love that a parent can give, IMO. Hope that doesn't sound too critical, you seem like a very open-minded person, Sobernow, so felt I could express my opinion there

Sakura · 07/10/2007 03:42

Sobernow, I think your friend`s family is a classic example of a toxic family. The mother pretending the father was innocent, , the father apparently dying as a result of your friends letter (an unlikely scenario, but easy to misconstrue as though the death was entirely the fault of your friend!)

I think you`re right that parents may behave in a toxic way without being aware of it. The reason is, this is all they know so for them it is normal. If the child protests the madness, then its obviously the child at fault, in their eyes.

YOu say you don`t like the idea of a confrontation, but believe me, if you are a toxic parent, the confrontation is a gift that should be grabbed with both hands. If you are totally unaware that you are an incredibly hurtful person and that you have done some unforgivable things, and then letter arrives from your child, with the hope of a reconciliation, you should take this opportunity to take stock of your life. Toxic people are miserable people and until they face the pain of their own childhoods, they will continue to be miserable and blame everyone else in their path for their misery i.e their children, especially their firstborns and especially their daughters.

So the confrontation letter is an act of hope on the part of the child, not an act of hate. And a book canT "force" you to hate anyone, anymore than a book can turn you racist. Either the hate is there already or it isnt. And if it is there, it has to be worked through for the child to move one so the cycle does not continue.

So for children of toxic parents, not hurting their own kids is far far more important than being right or wrong in confronting the abuser. Whether it is right or not is neither here nor there (although I think its right), What is important is to admit the parents were wrong (took me 24 years to realise that they were)and need to be made accountable for that. This is one step of making sure you don`T repeat the same mistakes with your own children. My daughter is worth 20 of my mother.

Sakura · 07/10/2007 04:50

I just went away and had a think about how I would know if I was a toxic parent or not. Basically you canT know. Like AMethyest, Im just going to make sure I cover all the bases; no physical punishment, not emotional withdrawal etc, and make damn sure that I parent conscienciously (sp?) Mumsnet helps with that.
There is one thing that makes me thing I may not be, and that is the fact Ive made a big statement to my family and to myself that their behaviour is wrong. THank GOd I did that before having DD or I may not have realised it, and def would have repeated the parenting style.8 But the real crunch comes when our children (esp daughters) become teenagers. Can we face the criticism of our selves, our mistakes and our life choices? Can we let our children go, be free to make the choicesthey want?MOst importantly, can we apologise and accept that we have done things in the wrong? THis is the decider about whether we are toxic parents or not. hopefully our egos will have recovered enough from our crappy upbringings to be able to deal with these things in a proper adult way that doesnt hurt our children.
I for one, have no idea whether or not I`m up to the task.

Amethyst8 · 07/10/2007 09:28

I sometimes wonder how much age has to do with it. In my thirties with a lot of thought and life experience I realise that my parents were toxic but I know for a fact that in my late teens and early twenties I did not think this and it is an uncomfortable realisation to me that had i had children then I would more than likely have parented them in a similar way to my Mother. I find it quite scary that age may be the main factor in determining whether I would be an abusive parent. I remember at that time my Mothers views were mine and I know that I treated a few friends and boyfriends in a similar way, quite controlling and emotionally abusive and yes sometimes physical as well. Not something I am comfortable about at all and I can t make any excuses but an explanation for it is best put by Earlybird in her 15.26 post.

The difference between me and my Mother though is that I was constantly striving to change, I didnt like myself and all my life have only been too willing to accept criticism and move in a more positive direction. I went to counselling, read everything I could get my hands on - when I had my babies I bought or borrowed practically every parenting manual you could name. The truth is I learned my parenting out of a book and from the internet and was glad to do so. It didnt come naturally and thats why I have a set of unbreakable rules to guide me.

My Mother did not want to learn and even now does not want to change anything. Thats what makes her toxic. Learned behaviours are hard to put aside but you can do it if you want to and they didnt want to.

I think everyone on here who has survived an abusive childhood are absolutely amazing. I knew I had achieved a lot after my childhood but I am still learning more and more from the people on MN. Not only that but I no longer have to bore DH witless with my tales anymore. For some reason since I discovered MN I don t think about it all so much. Just the occasional post on here is a real outlet for me.

jenk1 · 07/10/2007 09:47

ditto amethyst!!!

looking back everything i did was a direct influence of my mother,i just didnt realise it, i look back now and can see how controlling and emotionally (and physically) abusive she has been to me and someone said earlier that toxic parents are usually more abusive to their first born and daughters and i was both.

i havent told my story before, ive never been brave enough but reading some of the stories on the mother has cut me out of her life thread, im going to tell mine on that thread.

OP posts:
Pages · 07/10/2007 09:53

Me too, Amethyst. I know that if I'd had children in my twenties I would have been a toxic parent. I also had some traits of borderline personality and NPD at that time. But have spent more than a decade trying to change that.

Sakura, you said everything I meant to say but better (as usual!) - that's a really good point about the elderly parent's family putting their toxic spin on his death - I doubt whether an inquest would have had the same finding! My mother also played on her age/frailty and that is the reason why my siblings are now not speaking to me (my mother is neither old nor frail).

Also a really good point about the confrontation being a gift. A friend of mine who is a mother of teenage children said the same thing to me, she said my mum is lucky I chose to confront her rather than just walk away. She said one of her children recently just stopped speaking to her for a year, and she did everything she could to keep him and has said sorry for the hurt she caused so that they are now friends again (but then she is not a toxic mother...)

Sobernow · 07/10/2007 10:32

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Earlybird · 07/10/2007 13:10

sobernow - you touch on a huge dilemma. Can we/should we allow our toxic parents to be an active part of our own children's lives? If yes, what (if any) steps can we take to ensure the same 'poison' doesn't seep into the grandparent/grandchild relationship?

Pages · 07/10/2007 13:22

I think it has to be our decision as parents. If it were a decision whether or not to let a child see an abusive parent then it might be a tougher question, but as someone said on an earlier thread, what child was damaged by not knowing their grandparents? I didn't know mine, neither did DH and neither of us are bothered by that.