Pre nuptial agreement- any experience?

[Impatient37]

Hi, has anyone any experience of this?
Apparently my partner would like one, we have been together for 8 years and have 2 small children. We have been engaged for 4 years and plan to marry at last later this year. My first reaction is upset/humiliated/outraged. If I’m being objective I can understand his point to some degree, but I’m his long term partner and mother of his 2 children, it’s not as though we’ve just met, and he’s made his money mostly in the years we’ve been together whilst I stayed at home with the children. He’s been though a horrible bitter divorce before, otherwise I don’t think he would feel it necessary. I’m with him for love not money and I think I’ve proved that over the years, but if the worst happened I would want what was fair given we’ve built a family and life together. I don’t think he wants to cut me off with nothing. That would be another matter. And I know everything he has will end up with the 2 children (and his one older child) one day one way or another whether we are together or not, so that’s the main thing. But he does want to protect some things, mainly his businesses I think. I need him to clarify but initial discussions have not gone well because I was so upset.
Anyone have any experience of this? What did your agreement cover? Did you feel it like was fair to both parties? Did your relationship survive any initial bad feeling around this? Can it even be a positive thing for both parties?
Thanks if you’ve read this far.

You need to speak to an independent solicitor. Pre nups are not always binding in the UK and a judge could decide to ignore it if they believe it is unfair.
He's being a twat. And you've been very foolish.
Stop being passive and start sorting your business out.

Given the circumstances I would not agree to one.

Fine if he is worth £100 million already and has know you 12 months

But you have made sacrifices and no doubt helped his business.

Trouble is he can choose not to marry you at all if you dont agree and that feeds into his paranoia.

So all you can do is think what is fair for you rather than what you might get in a divorce court.

Honestly? Rather than give you the blah about how they might be binding but probably not if married...

Pre nups are often good evidence of an arse. Of either sex. Here’s the way to deal with it.

Get married if you want. And then if it suits you, get a post nup.

What does he want to protect? If it’s stuff he had/money he made before the marriage I think that’s fair enough providing the children are catered for in the event of a split. But you need to know the details.

I disagree with the advice on here. If was going to be a mother to the children of someone with their own business I would want a pre nup. Even if you get married being self employed he can protect assets and disguise his salary.

Far better to get things agreed up front on what he will put aside for you within the relationship or marriage. Of course it’s better to do that before children.

All women need to have an explicit agreement about money before having children and sacrificing any element of their career or pension. Why people wait to do this till they have split and probably hate each other is unfathomable.

And I don’t understand why we keep telling women not to talk about money within a relationship or marriage. It doesn’t mean you don’t love someone or that you are mean. Just sensible.

I was in semi similar position but after 18 years and kids and I had made most of his millions for him. In the end we didn't get one but I did go to a solicitor and they said that what they called "fuck off" prenups are not valid. So if you sign something that is inherently unfair no court will uphold it but if it is fair they then are taken into account
Really depends on what he is offering ...

The question is really how much money does he have to prompt him to do this? What is he asking from you in the prenup??

You have children and are engaged which gives you certain rights anyway so what else is he asking you sign away rights to? I imagine it's pension related?? Or perhaps equity in the house which he earned before he met you?

Difficult to say without knowing more details but yes you would need a solicitors advice before signing anything. And I believe it can be contested as invalid if you don't obtain legal advice before signing

@ivfdreaming - You have children and are engaged which gives you certain rights anyway so what else is he asking you sign away rights to?

This is completely incorrect. Until you are married, you have no legal rights to any of his assets. Being engaged and having children makes no difference.

Please get legal advice from a solicitor with experience of PNAs.

Of course I have taken legal advice.
I was simply hoping to hear from someone here who had been through the process.

Where I am from I had rights without getting married, strong co habitation laws. In the UK it seems there are none and all you are entitled to is child maintenance
Personally if he won't marry you without one I would marry him with one and take my chances with the divorce courts. Better than being left high and dry which you will be without marriage

Thanks @LemonTT I’ve been thinking this myself and it’s really helpful to hear a measured response - never expected to find myself in this position and thought we’d be married a long time ago. I agree, I know if someone wants to ‘hide the money’ they can do with a good enough accountant so yes - I can see how having something set in writing now that’s fair for both could be an advantage for me too.

[quote Saraban]**@ivfdreaming* - You have children and are engaged which gives you certain rights anyway so what else is he asking you sign away rights to?*

This is completely incorrect. Until you are married, you have no legal rights to any of his assets. Being engaged and having children makes no difference.

Please get legal advice from a solicitor with experience of PNAs.[/quote]

Actually you are incorrect. When it comes to owning a property together if a couple are engaged then they are treated as being married under the law and therefore have the additional protection that comes with that

@ivfdreaming - As a family law barrister who specialises in finances on divorce, I can assure you that it is you who are incorrect.

Not that the OP made any reference to owning a house with her partner, but if they did, what each of them would be entitled to on splitting would be determined by whether they are tenants in common (with specific shares) or joint tenants. Being engaged is neither here nor there.

Please refer me to the part of the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973 that supports what you say - I promise you, you won’t find it.

I don’t mind that you’re mistaken, I mind that you’re spreading misinformation that if someone were to read and then attempt to rely on, they would find themselves in a very sticky spot indeed.

Sorry to derail the thread, @Impatient37. Glad to hear you’re planning on getting legal advice anyway.

The ways people find to be wrong about the distinctions between being married and not will never cease to amaze me.

My advice would be to use this as an opportunity to secure assets, a home, pension and income in your name now. Of course it depends how well off he is and if he can afford it. But realistically if you were working you have been able to secure these in part at least and over the course of 18 years in full.

I would be asking for a settlement to recognise the past 8 years and then Increasing provision to be set aside each year. This will protect you in the event the business goes belly up or he hides wealth in a divorce. Knowing things have been set aside always gives you a cushion in the event of anything going wrong.

Be aware a pre nup is just an agreement. It cannot trump the statutory provisions and obligations set out in marriage or divorce law. Or the children’s act for that matter. But it can be the basis for settlements within those parameters.

This is sick. Why are you, his supposed life partner and the mother of his children, someone he needs to "protect" himself from? He clearly doesn't see the money he brings in, which YOU'VE
facilitated him in earning through childcare, household and other support, as family money.
This is nothing to do with protecting himself, because the whole point of marriage and divorce is that the financial settlement would be about reaching an agreement on crucially what's best for the kids and FAIR for both parties. Therefore what he ACTUALLY wants is to cheat you and the kids out of what would be fairly due to you. With this mindset it's no surprise he's bitter about his previous divorce. You're meant to be a FAMILY for goodness sake, what utterly shocking and disgusting behaviour on his part. He's been more than happy to take absolutely all the benefits of a committed relationship, including children, but without any of the actual commitment to you! He could have (and still can while unmarried) leave you all high and dry if he chooses to. Stop thinking about him and his businesses - you're currently in a FAR more precarious situation right now than he ever would be in a divorce. Why's he not rushing into signing a legal agreement to protect you all right now then? Oh right silly me, because it doesn't benefit HIM! Surprise surprise that protective legal agreement is marriage and he's been stalling on it and now trying to ensure he can cheat you all before it's even begun. Do NOT sign any pre-nup.

You'll get more if you marry him and divorce later with a prenup which may or may not be upheld, than you are entitled to now.

Are you on the deeds to the house? Do you have any assets of your own or a significant inheritance coming?

@LemonTT

I disagree with the advice on here. If was going to be a mother to the children of someone with their own business I would want a pre nup. Even if you get married being self employed he can protect assets and disguise his salary.

Far better to get things agreed up front on what he will put aside for you within the relationship or marriage. Of course it’s better to do that before children.

All women need to have an explicit agreement about money before having children and sacrificing any element of their career or pension. Why people wait to do this till they have split and probably hate each other is unfathomable.

And I don’t understand why we keep telling women not to talk about money within a relationship or marriage. It doesn’t mean you don’t love someone or that you are mean. Just sensible.

Pre nups are not legally binding - if he says he will pay her X amount now then come break up says his circumstances have changed no one can tell him to produce money or other support he's apparently unable to give. If someone is theoretically able to do hide money with a contract that's actually legally binding (I.e. marriage) a piece of paper that's not legally binding will be useless. Her best protection right now is marriage and ensuring she retains all the rights this contract gives her. A prenup will never give her a more favourable solution than marriage because the whole point this man is asking for one to be done in the first place is for his own benefit, not hers.

Of course you feel upset and humiliated, I bet most people would. Has he had something drawn up or just floated the idea? What was his response to you being upset about it? What are his reasons beyond feeling bitter he lost out to his ex in their divorce?

I'm quite pro pre nups.

I see them a bit like seatbelts. You don't get into a car expecting to crash but you still put your belt on.

Talking about what happens if you divorce while you still like each other is a good idea. A pre nup that is unfair is not enforceable in law so they aren't about 'screwing you over'. Both parties also need to take independent legal advice regarding the terms.

We considered one as my husband owns some property. Mostly it was about ensuring that my kids' share of the properties went to them only and that I had no claim to anything we didn't live in. To me that was fair.

Thanks @AnneLovesGilbert For understanding. I’m trying to get past those feelings to see rationally. It wasn’t that he lost out financially (it was a fair split in the end money wise) it was the years it took and the detrimental effect on the child and everyone involved really. All those legal fees and time wasted to come to an agreement that was the same as what was proposed on ‘day one’ anyway, so that nobody benefited at all. Apart from lawyers. He hasn’t had anything drawn up no, he wanted to know what I thought would be fair. He understood why I would be upset but thinks it’s the safest way to protect everyone’s interests, mostly the children’s and making provision for his older child who isn’t both of ours. Some of it is pride.

@Twizbe thank you it’s really good to hear your view as someone who’s done it. That is a very good point. I would also be in favour of agreeing certain money to go ‘only to’ the children. I suppose when life changes or people get new partners in future that money could end up elsewhere if it’s not ring fenced. You say you considered it, did you get advice and go ahead or did you leave it?

I would do a prenup in any future relationship. The world is too adverserial where exes feel they are 'entitled' to things, with encouragement from friends, family and solicitor.

Id prefer to have that discussion when things are rosy.

@PicsInRed exactly, either way it is better for me to be married one way or the other.

Yes I do have property, income and inheritance in future outside of the relationship so all of this would be taken into account.

@workshy44 thanks that’s really interesting that you looked into it and decide against.

May I ask what made you decide against I the end?

He hasn’t offered anything yet, this is early stages. We both know that unless it’s ‘fair’ it’s probably not worth much so I hope we can agree on what fair means.