Should I set boundaries for dp with money - what would you do in my shoes

[DoomM]

have name changed for this. Will try not to drip feed but give you the facts.

I am a high earner. When I met dp (4-5 yrs ago) he was also earning a v good salary but still half of what I earned. We moved in together (he moved into my London flat), he contributed to costs and all was fine. We then decided we were going to buy a house (rurally but nearer his dcs) - my credit is better than his, so last year, we bought a house with a big mortgage in my name.

around a month after this, he lost his job. it was a brutal sacking, they claimed gross misconduct with no evidence so he took them to court and it all got settled out of court but not with a huge payment for him. Due to the fight (months with painstaking evidence) he was incredibly low and he was looking for jobs but really struggling to get them.

as it was near the end of the year (2019) we agreed he would stop looking and give himself a break. In the meantime, because he felt guilty about not contributing cost wise, he really upped all his contributions at home. Started doing all the cooking, shopping etc.

then covid hit and it became clear he wasn't going to find a job so he decided to start a new business, with 2 business partners. It's not profitable yet but it's doing ok (it's a software based business).

my problem, and the reason to ask about the boundaries, is that dp is still unable to contribute anything. I have no idea how long this will continue because I have no idea if or when this business might become profitable (it's looking promising but who knows). But in the meantime I am paying for all our costs - the mortgage on the house, the old flat, our living expenses and dp is taking money out of the joint account to spend on himself (his phone bill/stuff he buys for his kids etc.).

the issue is that I can easily afford this - I have a ludicrously stressful, high profile job that has been excessively impacted by Covid. I've spent months without a break trying desperately hard to cut costs to avoid making people redundant. And I am now feeling resentful. I heard dp tell his friend that he is living his 'best life'. That he's so in love with me, we have a great relationship (we do), that he's setting up this business and he's never going back to the corporate world again. Except of course that this strategy relies on me supporting him financially until he can contribute which we haven't discussed! I think even if it does do well, with 2 other partners and having to employ more people as it grows, we would be lucky to get to a point where he is contributing enough to cover his own costs.

I do love him and I cannot deny that when he was able to contribute financially, he certainly did and when he stopped being able to, he absolutely upped his game domestically to show he intended to make a contribution financial or not. And he is really working hard on making this business successful. And of course I can afford the position we are in.

But something is nagging me about the possibility that he is never able to contribute financially and I never intended to be in a relationship where I had another dependant. Although I don't think he is chancing his arm, I am slightly concerned about this position lasting forever and him getting his 'best life' while I get a hugely stressful life with the burden of financial responsibility! He has also been dropping hints about letting out the flat - which I can't do as it's my children's home and although they are at university, they come back often (my son has SN and MH issues so is back and forth a bit!) and the house is miles away so not in any way convenient for them and neither of them drive. I don't mind airbnb'ing it but it's not going to work now with Covid and London anyway.

Should I set a time limit within which he should be able to contribute financially? How would you deal with this? Am I being unreasonable?

See I think I would feel similar to you in this situation even though on MNs it's completely acceptable for the roles to be reversed & all the hard working husbands apparently thrive in their high earning/high stress job.

Having a stressful job is hard & people do burn out.

My cousin was in a similar situation which may or may not work for you. She dropped down to 3.5 days so lower salary but still around 100k. DH got a job 1-2 days a week that didn't pay much & worked on his business the other days. Eventually he gave up the business & they are both happy & cousin is less stressed.

I think you need to sit down and have a frank conversation with him about how he sees the future.

I think I'd phrase it as I'm wondering how you see the future going, financially. Obviously it's currently difficult, but presumably you don't see me as being solely responsible for covering all outgoings for ever? I was wondering what kind of timescale you envisaged?

It would take an utter knob to be outraged by this and have the balls to say, 'Yes - I thought you'd pay for everything forever and I would never have to contribute anything'.

As he still has money I would be clear that he supports his DC from that like he does with the maintenance. It's one thing for you to cover meals out and obviously food etc at your house but ridiculous if you are paying for clothes/shoes/gifts etc.

I think retirement plans and engineering backwards is a good way for having an honest conversation.

Life has its ups and downs, and sometimes we are going to have periods where we are unwell, or between job. So I didn't see anything too concerning until He has also been dropping hints about letting out the flat.

Its not 'the flat', its your flat. Your children need it. Why is he stressing about it?

About "The flat" you are currently supporting his DC indirectly by supporting him as well as directly yet he wants you to stop your support for your DC?

I think you need to be clear that you supporting your DC is something you have the privilege of affording and it comes before supporting his DC...

Hi @DoomM I get how you feel - as a high earner who’s job has gone crazy because of Covid (and I’m feeling the pressure of all the people I employ right now too).

I know that I am very stressed and exhausted and if my partner said they were living their best life at the moment I would be furious. I choke down annoyance at anyone saying it, frankly, as it has upped my stress levels considerably.

As everyone says, this requires a conversation, as one partner shouldn’t be feeling so good whilst the other doesn’t. Instead of starting at pensions, could you talk about the lump sum and children’s maintenance? Could you say you were wondering how his business was going and would it be in a position to pay the children’s maintenance when the lump sum runs out soon, and then move to a conversation where he contributes X amount into the joint account too, to be raised every 6 months? If he can’t do that, then it’s a bigger conversation about who will pay the maintenance and about him expecting you to finance his life indefinitely.

Also, don’t forget to give him financial ‘credit’ for the increase in domestic chores. At the moment the last thing you need to be doing is cooking, laundry and cleaning (I know from experience here!) so if he stopped doing them, you should outsource. But if he keeps doing them, they do add to his contributions to keep it all ticking along.

The thing that jumps out at me is that you've bought this big house with the big mortgage to be nearer his kids. Yet it doesn't sound more convenient for you or your kids. Given you're the one driving yourself into the ground paying for all of this while he's swanning around living his best life, why isn't life setup to be convenient for you?

He's telling you to rent out your flat, even though it would cause problems for your kids. If he's so worried about money, why isn't he suggesting you move back to the flat so you can rent out/sell the house?

It seems like looking at the big picture, his life has improved greatly by meeting you, yours has just got a lot more expensive.

Whatever you do don't put him on the mortgage for the house or give him any control over the flat. Keep yourself financially secure.

And don't marry him.

What will happen when he can no longer pay CS? Will he come to you to pay that too?

I think maybe before you bring up the reverse financial planning with him make an appointment with a financial planner for yourself. They usually have a list of questions for you to think about before a meeting eg future provision for dependents, desired lifestyle in retirement etc.
If you can clearly see what you want from life and get advise on how best to achieve that. It might clear up a lot of your issues with your DP.
When you open the conversation with him you will be able to lay out what you are working towards and you can see if you are both working towards the same goals.
I would be a bit concerned with his hinting around selling a flat he doesn't own. Would he expect the money to be spent on his children or invested in his business?
Otherwise why does he care?

Mmmm.... I think he's a bit of a cocklodger by circumstances (as opposed to a cocklodger by intent). It was unfortunate that he lost his job. Presumably it wasn't his fault.
If you hadn't been earning so much or if he was living alone and having to cover his costs, there would be pressure there to get a job, any job, as quickly as possible. He was feeling very low so at the end of 2019 you both agreed that he would stop looking to give him a break.
And this is where he becomes a cocklodger by circumstances. The circumstances are that you have sufficient money to provide a home, pay the bills, pay for entertainment, pay his phone bill and there's money left over for him to spend on his kids. He does not need a job urgently and he's living his "best life" so the urgency is simply not there and he sets up a business which may or may not make money in an, as yet, unspecified timescale.
There's no pressure to make the business work either because everything is on tap!
He's making more effort around the home? Ok, great, but you don't have small children to take care of so it's not like he's saving money on childcare by becoming a SAHP and therefore contributing to the family.

Time for a serious talk with him I think. He needs to start contributing to the household by x date. This absolutely cannot go on forever. You've only been together for 5 years - do you know what his working history has been like? Because I was with someone like this for 3 years and it later transpired that this was a pattern. When he was with a girlfriend who was earning more he just slacked off completely on the work front as he felt he didn't need to make an effort as he was not in danger of starving!

Do your children like him? What do they make of yoor set up?

How old are his children? Does he have more time with them now he’s working less?

The only point I would make is that if I was in his situation and looking for a job, it would be fine for say three months but after that I would be getting any job ie delivery driver and contributing a good proportion of my income to the ‘pot’. It’s not about the amount, it’s the principal.

I think you need to sit down with him and say ‘it’s great that the business has got off to such a strong start, can we talk about your growth targets and business plan?’ And use that as a way of getting a commitment to a profit target. Then you need to check at intervals that he’s on track for it. It’ll become apparent within months whether he’s actually making progress or whether this is the kind of business that only survives because it’s being subsidised.

I'm in a similar position OP. DH lost his job in November, both are/were high earners. He's 'living his best life' sat on the sofa with his feet up all day, every day, ever since. He knows I can pay the bills, so taking his sweet time finding another job, with all the excuses as to why he hasn't found anything yet.

I honestly find nothing less attractive than a man with no drive or ambition )although yours is a bit different because at least he's trying to set up a business. Mine is currently playing Pokemon, whilst the kids entertain themselves all day long, again.

I think you need to discuss some timescales with him about how long he thinks it will be until his business will start allowing him to contribute again. Presumably he's set the business up with a view to it making returns rather than just doing it for fun, it's perfectly reasonable for you to ask how long he expects that to be.

I dunno this is a tough one. It's all well and good him having the financial freedom and flexibility to start his own business and live his best life, but it shouldn't be indefinite.

For me, I think you could put a lid on the 'resentment' aspect by putting a limit on the amount of expendable cash he withdraws from the joint bank account each month. Bills, direct debits etc fine. But money for non essential presents for his kids (and I'm also assuming social activities?) would stress me out. Because then it's literally funding him on his jollies rather than financially supporting him until he's back on his feet.

I agree with PPs who say set a time limit on how much longer this will go on for. After a while, if his business still isn't profitable then it's not sustainable.

I read a thread recently on here about a wife who realised her 68yr old husband had no pension provision and she'd be supporting him for the rest of his life. That's dependency, not marriage, so there's a much bigger picture in play. It's not sustainable to run a self employed business which doesn't turn a healthy profit and you're right to be asking these questions now to protect your future together.

Definitely have a frank chat about a monthly limit on his expendable social spending, because I really do think that will be the needle that causes the most pain further down the line.

Good luck in resolving it between you both.

You'll soon be paying his child support for him too.

oof, I missed the bit abut him suggesting you let out YOUR children's flat! Cheek! It would more sense to let out your new rural house and / or downsize to somewhere where the mortgage is more manageable.

I think a 2 year time frame is a good starting point.
Most new businesses take around 2 years to make it to the break-even point and then start making a profit.
Do keep an eye on it though.
Is he working hard at the business?
How many hours a week does he put in?

You sound lovely and you are supporting him while in a difficult situation.

But it cannot be never ending.
A chat is required.

Surely people should only set up a business, which means an outlay and no income for a long time, if they have the money to do so. He's decided to do this using your money. That's outrageous. He has children to support, he intends to pay nothing for rent and bills, he uses your account for things for his children and his phone... OP, you need to get really angry here. You haven't made a legal commitment to this man. You didn't want to make a legal commitment to anyone, yet he is acting like what's yours is his, right down to your flat, which he thinks might bring in more money for him to spend.

There are a lot of red flags. Moving into your flat (fairly quickly) nobody falls in love as quickly as a man who needs a house. Approximately 3-4 years later you buy a big house so he's nearer his DC. He is sacked. He hasn't found another job. He's started a business (to keep you just enough of his back) so he can pretend he's not a massive dead weight to you and the outside world. Personally I would leave my job, sell the country pad, move back to flat and if I still wanted to be in a relationship with him see him but in a non live in way until you've got yourself and your career settled. You're the important one and your mental health. He's putting financial stress on you and I really think, having experience of cocklodgers, a decent man wouldn't take a tenner off you

You didn't want to make a legal commitment to anyone, yet he is acting like what's yours is his, right down to your flat, which he thinks might bring in more money for him to spend.
^^^

Good point.

I dont get all the hate towards the guy. It's not like ge jacked the job in. He sounds decent enough. Just set him a reasonable time limit and have open communication about how you feel?

The money's not an issue, as you have plenty to keep supporting you all, and he's been pulling his weight round the house when he can't financially, so he's not a freeloader either, he WANTS to contribute.

He's started a new business, which you acknowledge he's working hard at, but it will be a while before he gets anything like a descent wage out of it.

Your house and flat are in your name only and are secure. You are not married and have no children together, so he hasn't got a claim on anything that's yours.

He lost his job and hasn't been able to secure another through no fault of his own what with Covid etc, so instead of sitting back and allowing you to do everything, he's got himself a new career by starting a business.

I actually can't see why you're posting, unless it's simply that his comment about being happy has annoyed you because maybe YOU'RE not happy ? Maybe you're annoyed because you think he shouldn't feel happier/ less stressed than you ?

Unless there's more you've not said, I can't see him as a cocklodger or a freeloader at all, as it looks ( from what you've written) like he's done his best to be a productive and supportive partner who pulls his weight. Even going as far as creating a new career when he couldn't get a job.

I can't help but think that if the roles were reversed, MN posters would all be saying '' what else does he expect you to do??''

"dp is taking money out of the joint account to spend on himself (his phone bill/stuff he buys for his kids etc.)"

End this if you want to incentivise him to work and make money, right now he doesnt have any motivation to do it and probably hopes your largess will carry on indefinitely.

Its not the same as having a wife as you dont have children to care for. Its just a fully grown adult living off another one in a fairly short term relationship, not really ok and I dont know any men who would put up with this unless it was some kind sugar baby/sex arrangement.

In his defense, re the "living his best life" comment, he might just want to be putting a brave face on to his friend. If he's genuinely trying to get a business up and running, especially right now, and helping round the house, it seems a bit tough to be down on him like this especially when you are not even hurting for money. But clearly a talk about the future is a good idea.