How do I assert my boundaries with these guys?

[Fallenstardust]

I’m normally quite a strong character and usually have no issue in saying no when I need to. But sometimes with certain people I find myself behaving in a way which defies all logic and leaves me feeling ashamed, disrespected and manipulated.
One is a guy I was seeing for a while who I kept in touch with, despite him hurting me quite a bit in the way things finished. We met after a few months and even though I had mentally prepared myself (so I thought), he at one point kissed me and I allowed things to go further. I know that this has happened in the past and he drops me instantly after this.
I’ve never done this with any other guy and have always been quite strong in maintaining my standards. Not wanting to drip feed, he blows hot and cold, being very nice and supportive but then often criticises me, eg my hair cut or my tummy. Bizarrely, when he does this is exactly when I succumb to a subsequent tactile gesture, hug etc.
I grew up with DV and neglect and I actually feel traumatised when he leaves after these things happen (the criticism then me allowing intimacy). As I can’t understand why this unlocks my boundaries.
The other is a male friend who makes me feel manipulated by sending me gifts etc, despite being married, when I try to refuse them he won’t take them back and assured me he is just being a good friend. I’ve told him I’m not comfortable with it. I’ve said I wouldn’t be happy if I was in his wife’s position but he brushes this off saying she’s fine and understands we’re friends. The thing is he is a very friendly and thoughtful person, liked by everyone, but I really don’t like receiving these gifts. It’s got to the point I feel so awkward protesting but I also find it condescending.
I do think I need counselling but not sure where to start. I think I am allowing myself to be manipulated but rather than just block I want to learn how to stand up to them and change this.
Sorry for the long post.

Bloke 1- block on everything. It's very easy if you do it as just a physical action of your fingers. It takes only a couple of minutes. You know he's damaging to you and you shouldn't have him around, for the sake of your well being.

Bloke 2- Block. You feel uncomfortable and that is enough to stop contact. Ignore any gifts- bin.

I think I am allowing myself to be manipulated but rather than just block I want to learn how to stand up to them and change this.

Blocking is how to stand up to them, otherwise they'll keep trying to mess with you and somewhat succeeding, or there's a risk of them doing so.

I suppose you could tell Bloke 2 that if he carries on you'll tell his wife. I bet he's lied and she doesn't know about the gifts etc.

I'm pretty sure you'll find plenty of people to practice boundaries with in future. Often the trick is to block etc early on.

Adult Children have been bought up with a lack of boundaries as domestic abuse doesn't allow boundaries. Those who don't respect your boundaries are reminiscent of your primary carers and your home life and you're triggered. When you're triggered your reaction is that of a helpless child, not an adult and that's how you react. It's also why it leaves you feeling traumatised as it brings back traumatic feelings. (Look up Complex PTSD and see if it rings any bells).

Therapy, not counselling would help you with this.

In the meantime, block the bloke you were seeing. Block him on social media/email/phone.

You've already told the married man that you don't want to receive these gifts. Can you send them back to him? Be very firm.

OP, it doesn't matter how well liked someone is or how they appear to to others, what matters is how you feel and how they are affecting you.

Bloke 1 - absolutely block on everything.
Bloke 2 - Tell him that every time he gives you a present you will send it on to his wife.

Thanks for your replies.
namechange that’s exactly how I feel. Really powerless and quite emotional afterwards. I’ve just got back to being happy until I saw him again and I’ve spent the past couple of days feeling worthless, used and ashamed.
The other guy won’t be easy to block as I work with him in the same office. But I will perhaps text as I find that easier than saying anything face to face as he just brushes it off.
What’s the difference between therapy and counselling? I will look into it. I’ve been feeling so awful, crying and going over what I did again and again. How he must think I’m easy and be laughing at me. Worst of all the reason we met up was so he could borrow something. So it’s doubly insulting.
I’ve felt suicidal today 😔 I tried to reach out to the Samaritans but when I called the guy who answered said there were no female volunteers at the moment and I don’t want to speak to a man.

I just don’t know what to do.

The first thing I would do OP is make an emergency appointment with your GP.

I would then take a look at BACP for a therapist. The type of therapy you have is not as important as your relationship with the therapist, so put in some search criteria to start off with like - child trauma boundaries etc and make up a list then call the therapists for a chat and see if you click with anyone.

Counselling tends to be more short term and focused than therapy. For example, grief counselling or addiction counselling. Therapy tends to be longer term and can investigate your past, getting down to the root cause so that lasting personal growth may occur.

They can overlap but in general counselling is specific and short term, therapy is longer term and more in depth. There are different types of therapy as well and their approaches vary such as Gestalt, psychodynamic, Jungian, Freudian. However, your relationship with your therapist is more important than the approach so don't get bogged down in them.

This is really affecting you so deep breaths and block the first guy OP. I would contact ACAS or your union regarding the married man as this is harassment. However, you may not feel strong enough for that right now. Also check to see if your workplace has an Employee Assistance Programme as they can offer counselling over the phone which would do as a stop gap until something more long term is sorted out and they can also advise on the man from work and support you.

If you're feeling really bad, contact 111, not the Samaritans as they will give you an assessment and advise. Also check to see if there is a mental health crisis helpline in your area. You can check here. (This is for England only, so check your particular NHS if you're not in England).

I googled the complex ptsd and it is like reading my life. Thanks for reading and suggesting it.
I don’t think I can do anything today because I can’t stop crying.
I’ve had another shower just to break the day up but I feel a bit better now having also recognised what it is I’m feeling and why.
I’m nc with my parents for the past year, but was actually seeing a counsellor when I met this guy and specifically wanted to assert better boundaries. Looking back she actually enhanced my uncertainties about what to do in given situations and left me constantly putting the power in his hands. About sex for example I was attracted to him but didn’t want to have sex too soon and she explored “why” I felt this way rather than offer ways to assert this and delay it. So I found myself thinking if it feels right at the time, do it.
And when he sometimes left me waiting to see if we’d do something the following weekend she asked how I’d feel if I wanted time to think about the answer to that.
I’m not saying I’d have done any better without her, possibly not, but she didn’t help.
Proper PTSD therapy sounds like it would be better.

You assert yourself by cutting them out of your life.

They both sound like absolute chancers and users.

You're asking us how to get them to change their behaviour towards you. You need to recognise that you can't do that, you can only change your behaviour, so disengage from them.

In the kindest possible way, I think counselling would be a really good idea for you to be honest. You can recognise their behaviour is shit and see the red flags but you're still willing to keep them in your life. That's worrying.

With the gifts, you don't need to accept them. Leave them on his desk or if he gives them back to you again, leave them in a shared place eg the kitchen with a note for anyone who wants it to take it. If he presents it back to you again, put it in the bin. He needs to see that you place no value on the gift. You did not ask for it and your life will be fine without it. Point out to him that you earn your own money and you will buy the things that you want to have.

You can recognise their behaviour is shit and see the red flags but you're still willing to keep them in your life

That’s exactly the point of my post.

Your counsellor was offering inappropriate advice and sounds unsuitable. Adult Children (children, now adults of drug, alcohol dependent parents, and/or those who suffered abuse and neglect as children) need to learn what boundaries are and how to maintain them as they've never learned. They also need to learn what is normal and healthy in a relationship and what is toxic and unhealthy as again, they have no idea.

There's a very good book by Pete Walker called Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving which is currently free on Kindle. Check out his website as well as it has some good info there.

Other suggestions is mindfulness meditation. There's a good app called Headspace which has guided meditations. It's hard at first but bear with it as it's very powerful.

Cut down on booze or stop drinking OP as this can add to depression and anxiety and you are particularly vulnerable right now. It's good news that you are NC with your parents.

Thanks growing i think I’ll do that. I need to be really firm again.
He once asked me to do an activity during the week which I thought was going to be a group from the office and it turned out to be only us (when I later asked who was all going).
I said I couldn’t agree to that as it wasn’t appropriate for me and I said if he is blurring boundaries then I can’t be friends with him at all.

A year later he asked me to go on holiday with him (again I said absolutely not, don’t ask me again).
It then stops for a while but always starts again.

Yes but you said you want to stand up to them and change this. You can't change the behaviour of other people. You stand up to them by cutting them off

former But why don’t they do it to other people? I feel like I am part of the problem because with certain behaviours my boundaries seem to vanish. And that really does worry me. Because I don’t know or recognise it early enough and then I feel trapped.

namechange I’ve downloaded that book and I’m going to try to get through it today. I think my work might offer free access to headspace too.
And I’ve emailed my doctors surgery to ask for a referral.
Thank you for all of this I really appreciate it.

I've read that book OP and it was life-changing. You're not alone.

Well done, you're really taking steps to look after yourself.

There's a theory called The Shark Cage, it was developed by someone who specialises in domestic abuse. When children are young, if their parents are healthy and functional, they teach them how to protect themselves with good boundaries. If they haven't been taught those important defences, then they become vulnerable to predators or sharks.

These predators can sniff out those without a shark cage, like a shark sniffs out blood. They also do approach other people but of course, stick around those who don't tell them to get lost. That married sleaze, inviting you on holiday and giving you gifts, probably has smarmed around the office trying it on with various women but they've told him to get lost.

You second guess yourself and are triggered because you were brought up in a dysfunctional home, so of course, you're the perfect victim for sleazy chops to get his jollies because you 'freeze' when you're triggered.

Another problem is that girls are brought up to be 'nice' which of course means 'be a doormat'.

You're very wise namechange12a

The being nice, I've identified as the "fawn" response which was a real eye-opener!

@Fallenstardust

former But why don’t they do it to other people? I feel like I am part of the problem because with certain behaviours my boundaries seem to vanish. And that really does worry me. Because I don’t know or recognise it early enough and then I feel trapped.

namechange I’ve downloaded that book and I’m going to try to get through it today. I think my work might offer free access to headspace too.
And I’ve emailed my doctors surgery to ask for a referral.
Thank you for all of this I really appreciate it.

They are predators who recognise the vulnerabilities in you. These people are like sharks who can smell blood in the water. I'm glad you are taking advice to protect yourself and am sorry your previous "counsellor" left you in such an unsafe mental state. I hope you get the help you are searching for and can build up your mental strength again. You deserve better than you've had so far. 🌹

Thanks for all your replies. I’m exhausted now, but I’ve started the book and I can relate to the opening chapter on emotional flashbacks as pretty much how I’ve felt the past couple of days.
I’ve received a list of therapists and trauma counsellors from the surgery which are self-referrals too so I’m going to have a look through that and make a few calls tomorrow.
Interesting analogies.
When I think about it I realised that the closer people are to me, the more difficult I find it to assert boundaries. So it’s easier to do at the start, unless (it seems) I am blinkered by attraction, then I allow breaches.

Keep going OP. Get some rest and then call those therapists tomorrow. You're already on the path to recovery and healing.

Morning, Feeling alot calmer today and finally ate something too. I also got through quite a lot of that book and its been a revelation.

Tears have been streaming down my face reading it - but good tears if you know what I mean. Like almost relief. Things make sense.

I know I've got a bit of a journey to go and I'm not on a waiting list for a few therapists and trauma counsellors - namechange is a trauma counsellor as good as a therapist or should I hold out for that instead?

Darkmilk I think I'm a fawn-freeze. I have siblings and can see how these responses have played out. One of my siblings was a parent-imitator, and a real bully, and one was a fawn too but was essentially the golden child who wasn't abused at all. My mum later said (to me as an adult) this sibling "wasn't ever bad" and that's why they weren't abused. That's pretty much the point I went nc.

Thank you to everyone who replied to me. Former and everyone who has said to block. I get that advice and I appreciate it's the best thing to do. I don't want to have to rely on the advice of others to action the blocking in future. I want to be able to recognise the point I should do it myself otherwise I still feel like I'm giving my power away (even if it is to well meaning people) and not making my own decisions. Also by the time I get to the point of asking for advice I'm usually pretty down. I hope that makes sense.

*now on a waiting list

I'm so pleases you're feeling better and that you've been able to eat. It's amazing when you suddenly realise that, actually, this is a trauma response due to my background and not because I have a 'defect'.

I would contact the trauma counsellor and have a chat and see how you get on. I think it's better to start as soon as you can and, if you find someone in the short term to help you with these very painful feelings, then perhaps that's the best way for now.

You can wait for a longer term therapist to come up or, continue with the counsellor if you are making strides and it's helping.

I don't want to have to rely on the advice of others to action the blocking in future. I want to be able to recognise the point I should do it myself

Definitely....wish you all the best

Here is a link to more info about the shark cage mentioned by another poster shark cage.

Have you seen the Stately Homes thread? It's good for people with difficult parents, you might find it useful.