DH really let me down - toxic male friend

[originaldiv]

Hoping for a bit of advice here on whether I am being a dick and should just let this go or not but I am really annoyed with DH about something that happened on Saturday night.
DH has a friendship group of 4 guys. He is really sweet guy, never aggressive, feminist and ‘woke’ etc but perhaps as a payoff for this he is somewhat of a doormat. One of the guys in the group is a complete arsehole - he is always the one that everyone panders to (for no reason that I can see) as he is difficult and petulant - wants his own way all the time / goes in moods / is unkind to people and sexist. I’ve been out for a drink with him and DH and friend’s gf (who has since had a baby) and it was ok but I got the impression that DH wanted me to get friend to like me as he did not like his ex gf.
So DH has been recently trying to suggest activities that friend would like to do with him and each time he has just said ‘nah that’s boring’ or just plain ‘no’ and DH will still go back with something else as a suggestion (the other 2 guys don’t live near us). When he told me this I was a bit annoyed that he was allowing this guy to take the piss out of him and all the effort was DH’s. Anyway he then said that he wanted to invite him round to have a drink on Saturday in the garden. Fine by me - he has never been to our house before in the 3 years we have been together despite regular invitations and the fact he now has a kid and we have 4 - I think DH was hoping he might want to spend a bit more time with him now there were kids on both sides - but no. He still keeps trying anyway despite this guy’s awful attitude.
He hadn’t heard anything from him about whether or not he would be coming over but then around 2pm he texted and said ‘what time you picking me up?’ There was never an offer to pick him up but whatever. DH brought him here and we all sat in the garden and had a chat and a beer. He marches into the garden where we had a speaker and said ‘I’ll take over the music from here’. I looked over at DH and then I said ‘erm will you?’ DH saw my reaction but didn’t really say much: the whole time he was there went like this.
He made disgusting jokes about perving on unsuspecting women, he talked about how pathetic his gf was and said that she always begs him to marry her and he mimicked her (she’s not English so did it in this awful mocking accent) saying ‘please I will give you everything your own way!’ He laughed and said ‘I already get everything my own way!’
He said he didn’t love her
He said that my DH brought girls back when he stayed at his for a few days once (not when he was with me) but clearly trying to cause trouble for him - then he changed it to 2 girls not 1.. I said to him 2 girls? And he said ‘you don’t think he’s only been with YOU do you?! Hahaha’ when what I meant was 2 girls at the same time which I know DH has never partaken in.
He said that my husband behaves completely differently when he is not with me and implied that I don’t know the real him
He slagged off one of the other guys in the group and said he hated him
I objected to another women hating joke and he laughed and said ‘do you really think (DH) doesn’t laugh at and make this kind of joke when he’s not with you??? Haha come on!!’ I replied that no, I don’t believe he does, he laughed at me like I was deluded.
He made sexual jokes in front of the children
He said ‘you don’t really know him! I’ve been with him for 30 years!’ I kind of laughed at this phrasing becaause it sounded like he was competing with me!
There is more but this is the main stuff - all the time DH sat there silent.
I ended up having an argument with the guy and getting pretty wound up, my friend came over from across the road and was just sitting there in shock at what he was saying. I belittled him and said he is like a 14 yo boy but in fact that is an insult to 14 yo boys because I have a 14 yo ds who I have brought up to respect women and he wouldn’t even behave like this.
After I argued back with him he said he was going to the toilet and left the house.
NB - I was not there all the time, when my friend came I was mostly sitting in the kitchen with her but a couple of times we went out and sat in the garden as the kids were on the trampoline.
So once he’d gone I was pretty angry with DH, I feel like he completely let me down - he said the reason he didn’t say anything was because I was more than a match for him and didn’t look like I needed any help. But has since apologised for saying that.
I asked him what he was going to do about it. He said he was thinking about it - I left him alone and didn’t bring it up yesterday as I wanted him to make his own decision rather than tell him what to do but by last night I was so fucking angry that he hadn’t said anything that I had a go at him and so he sent a text (it was good and he told him that his behaviour was unacceptable etc) surprisingly he sent back an ‘apology’ but it consisted of him saying he doesn’t remember anything he said and was just pissed. So not really an apology at all IMO.

dh is really annoying me - I felt he completely failed to protect me from this toxic male and even now is acting like this guy has made amends in a way. Apart from the fact that he was drunk - this is who he is. He hates women. He is an insecure disgusting person who put any attempt for women to defend themselves as being a nag/making their partner ‘under the thumb’. I want DH to be angry with him and I want to feel like he finds the behaviour abhorrent but he basically doesn’t - he’s defending him in my eyes by not being like that. I tried to keep my mouth shut but I just couldn’t. He was making jokes about women’s arseholes and gay men and shouting in the garden about a lesbian couple a few houses away who have just had a baby. It was so embarrassing and I just don’t get why DH even wants this pathetic excuse in his life as as far as I am concerned he is the opposite of this man in every way.

This morning we have argued about it again - he said what do you want me to do start throwing things and breaking stuff in anger? I said it sounded like I only have 2 choices; apathy and weakness or violence (I was in an abusive relationship for 20 years before this so that really hurt).
He says he is ‘conditioned’ because he has known him since school but that no he is ‘not happy’ with him. AIBU to expect more from him - at least for him to express some anger at his behaviour. I feel really upset that I didn’t just tell the idiot to leave or something but it’s more that DH has really lost a lot of respect from me. I suppose you only see someone’s true colours when a rare situation like this occurs (thankfully not often!). Any advice?

I too am wondering what your dh is like when you’re not around.
The prick must have felt a certain level of comfort saying these things.
Definitely don’t have him round again.
Perhaps your dh joins in or keeps quiet to keep the peace?

What does your husband say about why he is friends with this man? And it can't just be about him being part of the larger group because that doesn't explain wanting him to come to your house, going and picking him up when 'told' to etc.

@XiCi

One of the most important parts of being in a relationship is having each others backs. My DH would have lashed him out of our house for displaying that twattish behaviour and, although I'm quite capable of standing up for myself, if a friend of his spoke to me like that he would definitely have put a stop to it. Conversely, if a friend of mine was treating DH badly I'd be asking them what the fuck they were playing at. He sounds a complete fucking wimp tbh and I wonder whether you have chosen someone so weak willed and cowardly because you have been in a previous physically abusive relationship. Like from one extreme to another?

True to a certain extent however I think that's a simplification. Some men are comfortable with conflict. Some even enjoy it. Others hate it and have never learnt to deal with it. OP's husband appears to be in the latter category.

It seems to me that husband's friend - let's call him Arsehole - knows that husband can't deal with conflict so he chose to sabotage husband and OP's marriage by exploiting husband's passivity.

I suggest to OP that although she needs to show husband that he needs to learn to deal with conflict, especially when it affects his family but also even when it only affects him. However at the same time if possible do NOT play into Arsehole's plan and let the relationship get damaged, which I'm sure was Arsehole's aim.

Husband has probably managed to survive by not standing up to people who bully him because it's something that has only happened occasionally. I hate conflict too so I can relate to that. But now he has a family that's no longer acceptable - he needs to learn how to stand up for his family and himself in case this happens again. It will be hard for him to learn but it will be very beneficial.

Sounds like a very old friend who due to length of friendship gets away with this shit, would your dh day that if he met this person now he would want to make friends with him?

I've no doubt that the friends intention was to cause problems within OP marriage, all the more reason for OP DH to not have him in his life anymore. There doesnt even have to be conflict. He us actively chasing this friend and the friend keeps fobbing him off. All he would have to do is not contact him again. Saying hes not welcome at the house again is just a huge cop out as hes not been in over 3 years and isnt likely to repeat the experience anyway. So he is making a choice to keep this person in his life despite him trying to cause discord in his marraige .
I know it's a simplification to say you should always have one another's backs but to me it is that simple. It's up there as one of the most important things in a healthy relationship and I'm lucky to have a good one, 27 years and counting.
I wouldnt be with a man that couldnt stand up to someone at the expense of his family, simple as that. Its something I shouldn't have to teach!

I have been grilling him on this all day so I will try and answer some of the questions about this so called friendship. This is what he has said to me.

His behaviour on Saturday was not the way he usually behaves - DH thinks that this was due to my presence and potentially being threatened by it: when they went in to watch football he said he was actually pleasant - he was saying how nice it is to see all the kids happily playing etc - the behaviour only started again when I returned and sat with them again.

He has been out drinking with him around 5/6 times in the past 2 years and he said that the last few times have been fine - he has had a normal conversation. He makes dark jokes for shock value and that has still happened and yes probably he laughed along, mainly it is stuff like taking the piss out of each other (clothes and things like that).

I do know what you're all saying about maybe him being more like him than he admits and I honestly don't know how I'm meant to prove this.... the other 2 guys - 1 is a v v introverted nerdy type (who would definitely not stand up to him) and the other one - the one who arsehole friend told me he hated - is a really really left wing guy who I have met several times and treats his wife really well - I cannot imagine him being a misogynist, it just doesn't seem likely obviously nobody can know what goes on when they're not there but he is someone I can imagine being friends with DH.

He has sent another message after the non apology saying that he feels terrible that he didn't stand up for me, that he doesn't want anything further to do with him, he has removed himself from the group chat of 4 of them and told the other 2 guys what happened and they have agreed and asked whether I am ok.

He reckons that he's stayed mates with him for a few reasons - he doesn't have loads of friends and he's the closest, he has known him a long time - he did read the post from Atila about toxic friendship and said it made a lot of sense. He thought that once he was having a baby things might be better due to having something in common and that his behaviour on Saturday was the most extreme version he's seen.

I don't know how else I can determine whether there is a side to him I don't know about - obviously I am furious with him about associating with someone like this but I do think part of it is being bad at communication/assertiveness and sort of not saying anything but not encouraging it either which is also as bad. And weak.

Also what's annoying me is that he IS very passive - even with me. He will do what I say - and I don't know whether this whole reaction is because I have told him what I want him to do rather than what he would have otherwise done - probably not and that is a very unattractive trait.

Your husband needs to grow up.
He clearly thinks his friends behaviour and comments are acceptable if he remains friends with him so I wouldn't regard your DH as a feminist or 'woke'.

Not all long running friendships have to last forever.

@sangrias - I know - I was trying to build a picture of my DH's usual behaviour, what he is like normally (and we have hardly spent any time apart in the last 4 months) he would describe himself as a feminist - I am v vocal about things like this which is why I know as we have talked about feminist issues at length and nothing he has said or alluded to made me think otherwise (until now).
He is literally the perfect guy (apart from the doormat part which frustrates me no end). He is the same with his mother and brother who are nice people but he is easily railroaded for a quiet life iyswim - eg. He would rather do something even if it was inconvenient so he doesn't have to say no.

I'm not making excuses - I am explaining what he is like. He's ditched the friend for good - that's over. But even so - I am still left with a bad taste in my mouth about the whole thing. I have accused him at times that, whilst he will do whatever will make me happy, that this is only because I'm the one he lives with and he'll bow to whoever is giving him the most grief which usually is me.

I trust him. But I don't know whether there is more to this like some pp's have said. I don't know how I will ever know that. He is respectful to his dm, he has a nice family who all like me and is a really kind and sensitive father.

I do believe that this guy is jealous and would love nothing more than to cause a rift between us. That is obvious here which is why I am reluctant to let him win.

The other reason I wanted his support is because men like his friend don't listen to women.

You mean how your husband isn't listening to you?

His punished aggression in sport - these are little admissions which inform you of his character out in the world.

he would describe himself as a feminist

He's either a feminist or he has misogynist friends OP - which one is it?

People can describe themselves however they like but their actions belie their true character. I am a feminist and do not tolerate misogyny when I hear it and I certainly wouldn't tolerate a long term misogynist friend.

Sounds to me as though he tells you whatever you want to hear.

It's easy for people like your DH to have principles, it's something else entirely to stand up for them. It's one thing to say he's kind, he's not judgemental, he's not a misogynist, he's not racist. Anyone can be like that on a surface level.

But when a situation calls for someone to stick their head above the parapet and say something that might cause an atmosphere, or awkwardness, or whatever and that person backs down. That says to me their principles aren't really principles at all. He's not just a doormat, he actually condones this behaviour. That's what his silence said.

Captain Awkward has some great stuff on this sort of situation, I would get your DH to read it.

Given that your husband seems like a doormat, he probably does laugh at those types of jokes.
End of the day he's a grown man, who is more than capable of choosing his friends. His chose to keep this friend in his life, despite him clearly being vile in his behaviours.
You have a dh problem, not a dh friend problem.

Also what's annoying me is that he IS very passive - even with me. He will do what I say - and I don't know whether this whole reaction is because I have told him what I want him to do rather than what he would have otherwise done - probably not and that is a very unattractive trait.

Perfect husband turns out not to be perfect. He must have been like that all this time you've known him so you can hardly expect him to change magically once you notice. If you tell him you don't like it and ask him to change he might surprise you.

Passive people are annoying, but you knew he was passive when you married him.

Move on, let it go. Don’t harp on for the rest of your life.
Don’t have the arsehole in your home again, don’t socialise with them personally but nobody should dictate to their partner who they can and can’t be friends with.

He says he is ‘conditioned’ because he has known him since school

He is painting himself as some kind of victim in this scenario. People who have an arsehole friend often them to act out on their behalf, its passive aggressive behaviour.

My last straw was actually a strip club scenario. Ex's best mate is a creep. He is not loyal or faithful and is just an all round revolting person.
He tried it on with me so straight away I showed my ex the messages.
He said 'that's just his way' & a week later it was this sleaze ball's birthday. Not only did my ex keep it secret that he went to the club, my ex actually paid for the slimeball to have a lapdance.
He hadn't even confronted his friend at all about the messages to me, which were basically an invitation to sleep with him behind my 'partner's' back.
I also realised that all my exes proclamations of wokeness and supporting feminism etc were absolute bullshit and he was just saying what he thought people wanted to hear.
I subsequently found out a lot more lies but I suddenly realised that my Ex's three closest male friends were all serial cheaters.
And my ex was a big fat liar.

Oh, and his reason for staying close friends with this guy is because he'd done him a favour a few years before and 'he can be very funny sometimes'.
Slightly different tangent but he excused his inability to let go of his recent ex to a favour she'd done him to.
And another ex before her still 'held a special place' in his heart because she had made him feel loved at the time his marriage ended.
I was proper mugged off.

It appeared that the only person who didn't warrant his loyalty was me.

Wow the friend is vile.
I'd feel suspicious if my dh didn't react and stayed silent. I'd be concerned he is like that when I'm not around.
Being a nice guy isn't a precursor for being a doormat. My dh is a 'nice guy', non confrontational, sweet etc but no way would he allow anyone to speak to or about him like that.

@famousforwrongreason that's awful - what a fucking prick

Ok - thanks for all your input.

He has dumped the friend for good now - there's no going back on that so at least that's something - he hasn't replied at all to the last message where DH told him once and for all.
He also told the other 2 guys in the group exactly what happened.

I do get what people are saying about what he's truly like when not with me. I don't believe he's a twat; weak and laughs a long yeah maybe . He read all your replies too and if nothing else it's proof to him of the fact that you do really get judged by the company you keep.

yes he really let you down. my dh would have asked him to leave and would not have anything to do with him. in fact my dh has done so over a 30year friendship too. your dh just sat there so spinelessly , I would be furious. not sure what you can do about it though.

Its not his behaviour when not with you I'd be worried about but his behaviour when he is with you. Not supporting you in the face of some pretty awful behaviour from his friend. I'm glad the friend is out of your life now OP. Next time it might be a different acquaintance though, a stranger in a pub, some idiot at a gig. Will he have your back then?

But you’ve married someone who is a doormat & a “feminist” & now expecting a hem to be an alpha male, stand up to another bloke & defend your honour ? You can’t have it both ways. You have chosen to marry someone non-confrontational & upset with them for avoiding conflict. I think the friend sounds like a dick, but it’s making you see that your husband isn’t the “feminist” he portrays himself to be - he is just a beta male who will be subservient to his toxic woman hating friend. That to me is the problem which is bothering you.

@XiCi yeah I have spoken to him about this - and what would happen next time - he assures me that it will never happen again. I can't obviously be sure of this can I, but he is good at self reflection and from all our discussion plus reading this thread I can't really ask much more!

The friend is gone. He has no other people in his life like this - the rest of his mates are nice (afaik) and his brother is a good person too and we all spend a lot of time together.

He said he is going to tell people what happened with this 'friend'.

For whomever mentioned the 'aggression in sport'; the reason I even mentioned this was because I felt i had built up a bit of an unfair emasculated image of DH, and I wanted to balance it with the truth that he isn't a complete drip - when it is appropriate he is tough and strong (ie when playing his sport) - the only reason I knew about that was because I asked him how the game went and he told me he was sent off for 2 minutes for something along the lines of going in too hard. Not football.

He is a great person and my best friend and I think he just got too far into this friendship which had been since high school and couldn't see how to extricate himself, learnt to just brush over the uncomfortable jokes like I imagine a lot of men do. I don't think it's the worst crime and he has learnt a lot from this situation about his own values and beliefs and why it is not ok to keep your mouth shut.

I am assertive and fierce and that's what he likes about me, he has always been more the 'shut up and keep your head down' type but since we've been together I have seen a lot of positive changes in that area.

One thing I do remember him saying while the guy was here was about name calling - arsehole was saying he couldn't believe that DH had never called me any insulting names. He said 'what, so you've never said ANYTHING like that to her?' He said 'no I haven't, why would I call her names? I love and respect her' and the guy laughed his head off. That's the thing - he hasn't and never would. I have never heard him call any woman anything like that either. So, all I can do is judge how he treats me, he doesn't stay out late, watch porn, he doesn't agree with paying for sex or strip clubs or anything like that so I'm not going to continue to let this guy cause any more shit for us - DH has done the right thing here and put me first (in the end I know!) but I can't really break his balls any more about it.