Do I stop him seeing his son?

[hidingfrommyself1]

Name changed for this as I have friends on here and no one knows what's really going on.

I'm married with a son I tried for a very long time for and he was conceived after many rounds of ivf. My husband had 2 kids before me and is older than me by almost 10 years. When I met him he said he'd have 1 more as he didn't want to deprive me of being a mother but he would only ever have one. I accepted this and was genuinely ok with it, I never thought I'd have any children so I was grateful to have my boy.

My husband asked if I would be sterilised and I said no. I only have one child and whilst I accept that's all I have I wasn't mentally ready to completely shut that door, I said he has 3 children now and definitely doesn't want anymore so he should get the snip instead. He agreed but, despite my nagging never called the doctor.

Well the unexpected happened and I got pregnant again. I'm due very soon and my husband has been vile.. he's made clear he doesn't want this child and I made it clear I wouldn't be getting rid. I thought maybe he'd come round to the idea but he's dead set on having nothing to do with this baby. Our marriage is over. There is no going back on what's he's done/said to me the last few months.

I can deal with all of the above, I don't need him nor want him anymore. I'll leave with my babies as soon as I can and I'll be fine I have an amazing family and tonnes of support so I'll never struggle. But what it's breaking me and what I absolutely cannot deal with is the idea that he wants to continue to see my eldest son but is refusing to even acknowledge the baby.. so I've said, in anger, that he is either a father to my children or is he not. He will not pick and chose they are his children and he sees them both, or neither at all.

I cannot stand the idea of when both children are older than he comes for one and ignores the other. What do I tell the youngest when that time comes, do I lie and say he doesn't have a daddy? Or do I genuinely stop him seeing both children if he won't acknowledge one?

I haven't told any of my family or friends any of this yet. Because I'm just so ashamed, lockdown has made it very easy to hide away from everyone. I feel so much guilt for bringing a poor child into this but after every thing I've been through I could never of considered abortion (not that I disagree with it at all, it's right for some people).

No matter what I do It'll end in hurt somehow.. it feels like I genuinely cannot win or even find a happy medium.

You don't have the right to stop him seeing his son - it's his son. He has the same parental rights you do. Would you like him to stop your access to his eldest boy ? It could be argued you forced him into a second child by stealth (your previous infertility suggests the new pregnancy wasn't a one off accident). He was clear he didn't want a second child, however it's imminent anyway. Probably he'll change his mind but if he doesn't you can't blackmail him with child access. That's not your right to do that.

I also think he's been incredibly clear: he told you he never wanted another, he stands by that, he doesn't want to be a father to the new child that he was completely transparent about not wanting. That doesn't mean you get to cut off access to his existing child, that he apparently is a good dad to, as your idea of "punishment".

@jovial it isn't to punish father but to protect the youngest being treated so cruelly.

He was clear he didn't want a second child, however it's imminent anyway.

He could have not had sex - no second child.
He could have used condoms - no second child.
He could have got the snip as the Op encouraged him to - no second child.

A number of HCPs told him that his wife was likely to be fertile post the first baby. So he decided to have unprotected sex with her and then is surprised and horrified that there was a baby!

"Well your baby won't have any clue till they are a year or more.
So don't deny your older child the right to see his father just yet.
You had the baby and claim child maintenance then arrange mediation and have what he says witnessed. Then take it from there.
Make sure to claim for both kids"

disagree with this - it will be damaging for the older child to learn and observe their father ignore the younger sibling. it will be hugely stressful for the older child to observe hat a fathers love can be completely refused for no reason and your child will experience stress and anxiety over it.
DC will constantly be on their toes to not received the same treatment. extremely unhealthy.

You'll be punishing the eldest child if you stop him from seeing his dad I think what this poster meant was that the children's father will be punishing them both by acting how he is and favouring one child. Surely no one could blame the OP as that seems like victim blaming to me.

I also think he's been incredibly clear: he told you he never wanted another, he stands by that, he doesn't want to be a father to the new child that he was completely transparent about not wanting. Why didn't he have a vasectomy or not have sex then? If he felt that strongly he should have done the above.

@jovialNickname

"It could be argued you forced him into a second child by stealth (your previous infertility suggests the new pregnancy wasn't a one off accident)."

nice try to shift the blame - you purposefully have ignored the fact that if one doesn't want a child,
one will use contraception, not have sex or get the snip. but of course you know this.

You also ignore the fact that The father was advised by healthcare professionals that a second pregnancy is highly likely.

@Embracelife -I completely disagree with you. The OP needs to start as she means to go on & your solution is damaging to the older child too.

@JovialNickname well he should of stood by what he said and got the snip, used condoms, went without. I was very clear I wouldn't be sterilised and that I was prepared to accept the risk.. he chose to take that risk too.. and this is the consequence. He is definitely not the victim in this at all. He is a grown man who made an informed choice but now doesn't want to accept the outcome.

You say I forced him into a child by stealth.. how? I was transparent and the risks were known to us both.. not just my responsibility to protect from those, if he felt so very strongly about it he should of taken action. HE decided that I'd never get pregnant because our son was conceived via ivf.. HE ignored medical advice. I've never once in my life got pregnant naturally but I still told him that shouldn't be relied on if he was so against another. I regularly reminded him to make doctors apps, I made one for him once he never attended. So I have done more than my share to prevent something HE was adamant he didn't want!!

I have no intention of forcing him to be a father.. he can walk away if that's what he wants to do.. I won't beg him or chase him.. but I don't see how it's fair to take one child and not the other. How do you suggest I explain that to the youngest..

There's no way to explain it to to the oldest either, that's the thing.

It's not fair to either and will damage them both in different ways and possibly destroy their sibling relationship.

He's put you in a position where you actually can't allow him to see the eldest anymore!

It doesn't excuse his behaviour, but you can give people exit routes to problems they create. Reading your posts, I would be enormously surprised if he didn't cherish both children, and it's adversarial to deny him contact based on your perception he will ALWAYS favour 1 child over the other. I'd slam him over the contraception issue as well btw.

I was in his shoes and I basically shat myself saying I didn't want the baby etc. Did I use contraception? No. So it's my fault she got pregnant. Nobody put a gun against his head doing the deed. He needs to realise the same in your situation.

I'm saying my story as my partner wanted me to be an active father. She made me take her to scans etc, and at the birth, the epiphany hit that she was right, I was wrong.

...you can imagine how long her list of 'how to make it up to her' was, but I applaud (and even bow) at her for doing it. I share this, because reading your post, it sounds like you have a similar man in your hands. Sometimes men just need another man to go 'man up mate - it's a good thing'

Some things are unforgivable @DirectTalker.
You're lucky that your relationship recovered and you were forgiven, but something like this would kill most relationships and there is no going back.

She is planning on denying him contact because for now she is taking him at his word, if he changes his mind and shows he loves the baby then i'm sure things will be different and all of us on here would say she has to let him see both and let him keep his relationship with the eldest and build one with the new baby. In fact I don't think she would need to be told to let him see them because she seems like she would of course facilitate the relationships.

But for now she's making plans based on what he is saying, because that's all that she can do.

There's another issue here, a newborn won't be able to go to contact in the same way his big brother will.

That's going to make everything very difficult.

Even if he wanted the second baby, how would you organise that, OP?

He's a nasty low-down man.
Do not accommodate him - he sees them both or not at all.
He made you pregnant having been fully warned by everyone.
I think it's very positive that his ex is keen on all of the DCs having a relationship.

@DirectTalker did you have children before the baby you mentioned? Just interested because if you'd never been a father before then I could somewhat understand your fears/irrational reaction.. but what I can't understand is how he could chose to want one child but not the other. I don't understand how he could see this child and feel morning towards it.

@picklemewalnuts well we are currently under the same roof and I have no intention of leaving my home so we will spend the first few months here at least. So he will be able to have as much/little access as he wants. When i return to work and am in a position to move/buy him out of whatever the arrangement may be then baby will be around 6-9 months so there's no reason why access can't be the same as with my eldest. I won't like it, but then I won't like sending my eldest for a whole weekend either, not because of him just because I wouldn't want to be without my babies. But that's something I'd have to adjust to isn't it.

I think I've got it pretty set in my mind now that it's all or nothing. I want my children to be treated the same and I think the least damage will be done by allowing the same access. I hadn't really considered the negative impact on the eldest.. I was only seeing it from the youngest perspective. He can take me to court and things can be decided that way.

Ok that makes sense.

Can I suggest you don't make decisions about this yet? I totally understand your anger and disgust at his behaviour.

However, in a few months, this may no longer be an issue. Worry about it then.

How old is your son? What will the age gap be?

I totally understand the point of saying see both or see none - normally I would completely support that as being the only fair/sane/sensible way for everyone involved.

But I think I might be with the people saying no, don't stop contact for your eldest just yet. He has a relationship with his father (it's not about his father's access to him, it's about his access to his dad.) A newborn generally wouldn't be going for long contact visits because it's not deemed appropriate, especially if you're breastfeeding. So there would be nothing to explain other than baby is too little for now. But you would definitely need to have something lined up - mediation and/or court proceedings to decide how to proceed - by the time the baby is starting to notice what is going on/the excuse that they're only little starts to wear thin, which would probably be around 9-12 months.

Then I read your update and this isn't a question for now, it's in the future, which changes the whole question - so the relationship between DS and H can continue as it is for now - I would say wait and see how things are at the point you're looking at buying him out.

If he has been involved, and wants to have contact with both at that point, great (BTW, there is absolutely no mandate for you to hand over an infant for full weekends at a time - little and often is considered more appropriate until they are older, and this may apply to your older son too, starting with daytime visits and building up to overnights later, if he's not used to being away from you and/or dad isn't generally involved overnight or during bedtimes.)

If however at that point he has stayed true to his word, first of all that's incredibly weird and damaging for your older son to see his dad straight out reject the new baby, and live with that every day. For that reason, I would go straight to court/mediation (whichever is most appropriate) because I just wouldn't give him the chance to play games with it. Do not make ANY contact arrangements. Go immediately to the family courts and get professional involvement. I would do this even if he's acted normal until it's time to move out and then suddenly only asked to see DS.

@BertieBotts my son will be 19 months when the baby is born.

I will see how things play out. I just want to be prepared for the worse case scenario and have a plan for then. If after a month he has shown no interest in baby then I will seek legal advice so I can plan the finer details of my next move

I agree, see how things play out but if I was in your shoes then if he doesn’t see both then he doesn’t see either.

For what it’s worth, my cousins dad was the same as your h. He would see the son but not the daughter. His reasoning was that he found it uncomfortable and weird to change her nappy as a baby She is nearing in high school age now and doesn’t seem affected by it. He did move over the other side of the world several years back so he wasn’t there for long with his son anyway.

Some people are just dicks.

Good luck OP . Some good advice on the thread.
You mentioned ‘weekends ’ above. Just wanted to come on and say that at 19months and new baby I don’t think either on them would be considered old enough to be overnight with their DDad just yet anyway, I’m sure some will know this for definite one here, but I am sure I have seen that mentioned.

How old is your other child? At least 2? You can't remove their dad from his/her life. My daughter isn't even 2 yet and she's besotted with her dad (we're not together anymore), it'd be cruel to break that bond completely.

This'll either go two ways. He'll either change his mind and fall in love with his baby or he'll be an asshole and spend the rest of his life treating the child differently. At least give him a chance to love his baby.

OP, yep, my first and I was 20. Personally though, as a PP said, I got lucky.

I don't think planning for taking him at his word is unwise, but to answer your thread, I don't think you can deny him the access.

Your DC will respect you far more for leaving the door open to him rather than shutting it.

Hi OP.
If your ex did take this to court (following failed mediation) the judge would likely order a guardian to represent your children (due to the complexities of this case) who will then assess the impact of contact on both children. Contact is for the benefit of the child NOT the parent. The judge and guardian would have to consider the impact on BOTH children and not just 1 child.
I would be really shocked if a judge ordered direct contact with 1 child given that dad doesn’t want contact with the other child. However, we are living in 2020 and nothing shocks me anymore.

That being said, I was in a similar position to you, my DS dad did not want anything to do with DS initially however he was a great father to his 2 DD. Initially DS dad had very limited contact with DS and I think this was because he didn’t want to look bad to his family however, when DS was 9 months old he did a complete Uturn and realised what a mistake he made. DS is now 2.5 and he has a great relationship with his father, he knows he will never get those missed months back with DS and feels incredibly guilty.

So my advice is, don’t write off a father child relationship with unborn baby just yet, it may not happen straight away and may take time but that’s ok however, if he does not want a relationship with unborn and that is glaringly obvious (once baby is born and dad has had time to adjust to the new normal) I would not promote direct contact between dad and eldest child, I would however promote indirect contact (letters, photos etc) between the 2 of them.

Good luck OP