Could you give me examples of how he tried to make you think left is right, up is down?

[SoulofanAggron]

I started more therapy.

Part of what I seem to be needing to do is trust that my own view of the world is not wrong, get an authoritative stamp of 'no that's not right' about some of the things he said, as at the moment a lot of it is 'that's not right, is it?'

While I still have that 'is it?' then it's still going round in my head.

So yesterday was my first session with the counsellor over Zoom. Already there were one or two things I think where she was able to tell me that what he said wasn't right.

It wasn't even 'just' lies about himself or the relationship, he lied about how the world was.

Would be interested to hear your experiences.

Not a partner or a husband but my parents. I grew up being taught not to think for myself and not to make any form of judgement because they would tell me what I should think.

The best examples I can give is when meeting a friend or an attempt at a boyfriend they would "know" he or she was bad news. Never any explanation , no matter what evidence I would attempt to put to them they just "knew " or "could tell".

The other one was whether i was pretty , the clear rule was that no i was not so don't bother trying. Of course I know now ita absolute rubbish and everyone is in their own way.

Oooh to be honest I could go on for hours , people shouldn't travel out of the country after a certain age , things are "tacky" or it's just not how we do things. The reality is your perspective is valid in it's own right , the challenge is to learn to trust your perspective and more importantly know you can cope if you are wrong because it all ultimately came down to that. I was taught I couldn't ever be wrong or survive/ learn from being wrong. Once I figured out that it didn't actually matter if it turned out I had been wrong about something and that I would simply correct , or learn to do it differently it was very freeing because it allowed me to go with my judgement in the moment because I could always resolve it afterwards.

Not sure if that makes sense but hope it helps from another persons perspective

I'm not sure if this is what you're after, but we would have a conversation about something - for example an upcoming family party / holiday / event - I would get his permission to accept the invitation, and two or three days prior when we were readying ourselves to go for the weekend or some such, he would deny all knowledge of the event / conversation / discussion and act as if he was so totally unaware and that I was putting him out by expecting him to attend.

I began to question whether I ever had these conversations in the first place, and because I was in that dreamlike state of never knowing, I thought I was going crazy.

He asked me how many men bought flowers, did I think? I said I didn't know (because, of course, I don't know what the world's population of men do about buying flowers). He told me 'not many'.
I didn't like to ask why he thinks he knows that not many men buy flowers. Maybe he'd done a survey of the men he knows, I dunno...odd.
Don't let him make you lose your grip on reality

And actually what @Shinyletsbebadguys - my parents told me how to think, how to vote, how to behave - my transition from controlling upbringing into controlling marriage, with hindsight, was far too easy

That’s a classic example of gaslighting Mahmah.

One of the more stupid ones was that he convinced me I got speeding fine! It was his... They keep talking until you're brow beaten into believing you must be wrong. All tied up in low self belief and not believing I could have a valid opinion or get anything right. I was easy prey for his personality and traits. If we had time apart (he worked away) I would find myself again and then the chipping away would start all over again. Interestingly I alway felt it was the real me he found attractive but saw it as the challenge to strip me of myself. When I was the useless mess he worked so hard to prove I was he hated me 🤷‍♀️. Got tired of the rollercoaster ride and walked away after 24 long years!

@MahMahMahMahCorona oh gosh, I have those conversations too. It actually makes me think I am crazy.
I have started emailing or messaging him with the details - I tell him it is because I am becoming forgetful.
He then gets the messages, gets irritated, refuses to read them and asks for a précis instead.
But at least I know then that I have told him.
I booked tickets for us to take the DC to the zoo and I put some picnic things in the shopping - when I said what they were for he looked at me like I was mad, what trip to the zoo? When I know I asked him, he agreed, I told him I had booked and I had forwarded the screen shot of the booking to him.
Basically, I think he wants to reserve the right to refuse to go based on the fact that he didn't know about something and uses gaslighting of a means to an end but I am calling time on his bullshit.

I am not sure if this is the same thing but if I ever express an opinion it is like he has to have the opposite one - like he cannot bring himself to agree with me.
He is very good at debating and belittles me, makes me feel stupid and sometimes, in the end, he comes round to my point but makes it out that it was his opinion in the first place - if that makes sense?
Or he tells me what I am thinking - during lockdown he kept telling me that I was stressed, annoyed with him etc etc. I don't think I actually was but he kept telling me that is how I felt so it almost became true?

Oh there are so many. I have placed many into file 13 as it is easier to just forget it.

One example. Saturday afternoon exdh says oh I'd better go pack. I'm eh, pack for where? He says but I told you I was going to xyz for work. I mean I'm talking overseas trip here. I say i think I would have remembered if you had told me you were going to France. Yes I did tell you, he says. It's not my fault you don't remember anything.

Where are my cream chinos I asked you to hem? Me: hanging up with the other chinos as I didn't even know they were too long.... He: how many times do I have to ask the same thing. I'll just fucking go do it myself then.

On the very last one of these gaslighting incidents involved him going away as well, conveniently with ow for a business trip. He took her to one of my favorite places and I accidently saw a photo she had obvs taken of him on the beach, which I immediately recognized. But he had apparentlu told me he was going there, but once again I forgot. As if I would forget something like that.

I really and honestly thought I was going insane. I only ever corrospond with him via email or messaging now and I have had to learn to always cover myself.

Its up there with one of the worst types of abuse. I actually did end up hospitalised as I had a breakdown because of it.

@MahMahMahMahCorona omg this happened to me soooo soooo many times! My ex smoked a lot of weed so it was somewhat feasible that he would forget, but the time I realized it was really, truly bullshit was after far too many years - it was one of my friends weddings, he didn’t know her or her friends very well, but we had both been invited, you know, as is normal with long term couples. I wanted to make sure he didn’t ‘forget’ so for months I asked him every week, even twice a week, to book the day off work. He would say yes yes sure. Then sure enough, like clockwork, the week before the wedding he said he couldn’t get the day off. He couldn’t say he forgot because I’d been nagging him for months, so turned shitty about it and said he didn’t even understand why he had to go, it’s not like he cared about her or her friends. I was like wow, he would actually be at work that having a nice day socialising with me and people I cared about. Ashamed to say it was many more months till I finally left. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg with his gaslighting. Arsehole.

@werk
“Basically, I think he wants to reserve the right to refuse to go based on the fact that he didn't know about something and uses gaslighting of a means to an end”

Having been with someone like this, that is EXACTLY what he is doing. It’s infuriating and humiliating. With my ex the gaslighting got another layer on it because he would ‘forget’ about invites, so I just started to do stuff with my friends on my own. Then all of a sudden he was ‘offended’ that he was wasn’t invited. One day I said I was going to an even with friends and he was all ‘why wasn’t I invited’ and I told him it was because he explicitly told me he didn’t want to hang around with this specific group of my friends because he thought they were snobs (they weren’t, he just had a massive chip on his shoulder), and he actually had to fall to say he probably wouldn’t have gone but it’s rude not to invite him

^ my last post should say ‘had the gall’ in the last line

Turned on me unexpectedly one evening and claimed it was because I had ignored him several days earlier when he needed support. He was so convincing that I truly believed I was a heartless bitch. He reads "No More Mr Nice Guy" and uses it to confuse me, but the truth is that he's gifted at manipulation and knows that it crucifies me to be thought of as an unkind person. The goalposts shift throughout every conversation till I'm not sure what the original argument was about, only that I'm a terrible person.

The flowers comment makes me laugh - he convinced me that as all flowers are "hybrids", they are worthless. There lay his excuse never to buy me any. He bought me lilies and champagne when he wanted to begin a relationship with me, and bought me a tape measure for the first Christmas after I gave birth to our first son.

The flowers comment makes me laugh - he convinced me that as all flowers are "hybrids", they are worthless. There lay his excuse never to buy me any. He bought me lilies and champagne when he wanted to begin a relationship with me, and bought me a tape measure for the first Christmas after I gave birth to our first son.

He'd make plans then say he'd never made them. He was sneaky about it too - he'd make the plans on a phone call or in person when nobody else was there. Never in a text message so I'd never have proof. If I suggested something in a group, he'd say that it was an idea, we should do it, then he'd make firm plans when we were on our own. If he wanted to do something else, he'd just deny making plans and then remind the group that I suggested it but no actual plans were made - to the point that most friends seem to think I've made it up and just wanted to control him.

I've took the line that I will never make firm plans with him again and any dates/times he gives for anything are not confirmed.

Even when I had proof of stuff he'd said (on the odd occasion I had something in a text message), he'd still deny it and say I was over-reacting and too sensitive.

He lost out in the long run. He's got a bunch of friends that will probably realise he's manipulative when he does it to them. He hardly speaks to his family, has no partner, no kids. I've got some proper friends, a family, a career and know now that I wasn't going mad. Oddly, I only realised the manipulation when he did it to a mutual friend in front of me. It was so much easier to see it than when he did it to me.

Interesting to hear these ladies, so sorry you were subjected to this shit.

I've mentioned some of these in other threads:-

Told me women's relationships are not often a major source of stress in their lives, and as a therapist he never had women come to him for this, they were seeing him for things like how to get on with their difficult mum or boss.

Tried to tell me that men are abused just as much as women/ the reality of women's experience in the world wasn't something we should focus on (The equivalent of 'All Lives Matter' but about sexism rather than racism.

Told me that as a therapist bipolar wasn't his speciality and so he didn't know anything about it (lies- he knowingly exploited me.)

Mumsnet was 'man hating net,' and I should read some sites saying how lovely men are. There must be some pathological reason why I wanted to read about women's problems in relationships on the boards.

By being a rape apologist after I was raped, he was just doing his bounden duty to keep me safe, as he would a client (as if a therapist would not know what to say when someone is raped, that you primarily offer sympathy/empathy as my other friends did.)

There were probably more like this.

My dad and I had a row and dad sent me an absolutely lovely xmas card he obviously put a lot of effort into choosing. He said 'I bet he picked the first one he saw.' I didn't fall for that one even at the time, it was so obviously designed to wind me up.

Then there were the straight up lies about his relationships/ours, and his life. His wife was asexual, and also it was a marriage of convenience. They had separate rooms.

He only had five years to live (I didn't realize this was a lie 100% until I left the relationship.) He was abused as a child but in a kind of kinky way that he enjoyed. 'Children have a sexuality.'

There was nothing wrong with him asking for the sexual acts he wants repeatedly, even though I'd told him I wasn't interested in them.

The friendship was the important thing to him, not the sex.

A woman he was seeing in the past became obsessed with him and he had to get a thug to run her out of town (in fact, she dumped him as she realized his lies.)

A disabled woman sent him sexual pictures and videos which were unsolicited and he asked her to stop = he asked this vulnerable woman who relied on him emotionally, for pics and videos, which she sent at his request (he even asked for pics after her episodes of urinary incontinence.)

Sorry to go on lol, this is probably just some of them.

OP I'm truly sorry. In his case if I am honest I would start with the assumption that anything he said was absolutely untrue and an outright lie.

At the absolute best he was skewing things. Abusers can be so believable they can tell you the sky is green and my God you will look up to check , however reasonable and rational you are.

Many years ago I delivered some prison programmes to sex offenders , one of the first things you were trained on before delivering them was how intensely believable the prisoners would be and to be hyper hyper aware of grooming. It still wasn't easy , you would still get caught by tiny things. Quite a few were " professionals " those in privileged positions and would often try the learned man approach. It was one of the more irritating attempts (a lot easier to shut down when we were in a room that I had the keys for and they didn't).

Abusers are master manipulators , don't kick yourself for believing them , now though whilst you are moving towards recovery I hope you start to see his perspective is a warped manipulative one , and the answer to the question that can't be true can it ? Is almost invariably going to be No....he was lying.

Ex Bf told me I hadnt tripped over his dog and burnt myself as she was under my feet in the kitchen. Then made out I just hated the dog. He saw it happen, I saw it happen, my 11 yr old saw it happen. I've got a scar on my arm for the burn. I absolutely love the dog and have never hated her.
He now has a tinder profile saying he has memory problems which messes with my head even more. Does he not remember me falling over his dog?
Ultimately, much as I was gutted when he dumped me at least I an no longer questioning reality.

My husband told me that he wasn’t abusive because he didn’t hit me, then systematically beat me to the ground mentally and emotionally, financially. He then told me most men were abusive and I was lucky to have him. He also told me everyone outside of the house would have it in for me but he would protect me...and many many more examples!

He'd tell me he would never cheat, whilst cheating on me... in front of me... for three months. "I hate cheaters, I'd never cheat."

I'd think of a question in my head and would ask him in the hope he'd know the answer, just like you would with anyone. He'd tell me to not ask stupid questions he didn't know the answer to. This was only at the end when he was having an affair.

He'd tell me all these stories about his "psycho" ex and how he did nothing to warrant how she treated him. He loved to play his violin. After 18 months of lies, financial abuse, and many issues regarding women, I now see why his ex behaved how she did.

So sorry you went through all that, OP.

Come to think of it the biggest lie he told was his marriage vows!

I've just recently split with my H. The other week he was picking up our daughter. He was 45 minutes late meaning I missed my work meeting. He offered zero explanation or a sorry or anything when got out of the car. His messages after was telling me he didn't apologise as I didn't speak first when he got out of the car. And it was my fault I missed my meeting as booking it for 30 minutes after his vague pick up time of '10ish' was me trying to control when he picks her up. It had absolutely nothing to do with normal common decency to be on time or even offer a simple apology it was all my way to control him. I questioned my own sanity. I was on the phone to an emergency councillor for about an hour after. I thought I was going mad

I realise mine is small compared to many on here but just one example of how he will swear black is white before admitting he was in the wrong

Thanks all [flower]

Please keep them coming as I'm sure we've put up with all sorts of bollox from this ilk.

He now has a tinder profile saying he has memory problems

@Daisy12Maisie Mine tried that too 'lol' -that his health meant he forgot what I'd said repeatedly, and that's why he would nag sexually for things he knew I wasn't into. That contradicted his statement that he thought there was nothing wrong with asking for what he wants, of course.