Dad has no empathy or social skills - why?

[LovePeonies]

My Dad has really poor social skills. I have a whole lifetime of experiences I could write about (!) but I will try and be brief.

He constantly judges and criticises other people. For example if we were in a restaurant and there was someone overweight he would make a comment like "look over there at them stuffing their face". Or he could see someone in the street and would say something about their appearance. He mainly criticises women which is a great example he has given to me and my sister growing up (!) It is really, really rude and hurtful and we always tell him to stop being so horrible but he never does. My DSis, DB, DM and I avoid going to places with him as much as we can. However, my sister and I went on a walk with him during lockdown as we knew there would not be many people around. However he instead criticised people's homes, cars and front gardens - "their house looks a mess, so rundown", "their front garden looks stupid". It is summer, a lot of people would had their windows fully open so they likely heard him. If I or anyone else tell him to stop being rude or to be quiet he raises his voice deliberately to embarrass us and tells us to not tell him what to do. He does not comprehend that other people can hear him or that if he must make such horrible comments he should whisper or lower his voice.

Even aside from the cruel comments he makes, he is uncomfortable in all social situations too like when we went to a family wedding he wanted to go home straight after the ceremony, or when we visit relatives he will either stay home or make us leave after very a short time. When we had family or friends visiting our home (pre-lockdown) he would always go out. He is also really poor at making eye contact and struggles to make conversation. If I ever try and talk to him about something I just get "hmm" in response and that's it and I can tell he is not really listening to me. He doesn't participate in any of our family celebrations like he never comes to restaurants when we are celebrating a family member's birthday, graduation, engagement, etc. It is really quite hurtful.

I just do not understand the cause of it. I cannot interpret why he acts that way. I understand that you could just say he is a mean person but I feel like that paired with the lack of social skills implies something more like an actual condition?

Unhappy, insecure, upbringing? Possibly autism.

Thank you for the replies. The comparison to how you would stop a toddler from misbehaving is really helpful, thank you. I have been following the advice in this thread for the last day or so and it has been so helpful. A few times he has started to be in one of his moods and started up his act and when I just brush it off and walk away I recognise that I can walk away still feeling calm rather than feeling stressed or anxious.

It is also interesting for me observing how I respond to my Dad. For example when he started up about having not eaten I started worrying because he has a medical issue and I worry that him not eating may make him unwell. I then start feeling guilty and selfish because I took the time to prepare myself a meal. I must be a horrible person for not checking whether anyone else wanted lunch made. It's such a drastic and bizarre thought process because he is an adult who is capable of making his own meals. However he has managed to create a dynamic where I am like his parent and where he is helpless.

Sounds like a garden variety narcissist to me.

I've never known anyone on the autism spectrum to behave this way.

@NotNowPlzz

Sounds like a garden variety narcissist to me.

I now agree, it makes so much sense to me now and I can see him in a new light.

Even today with it being Father's Day, I bought him a present and card and he has not bothered to even unwrap it. It's still sitting in the dining room wrapped up from when I gave it to him at breakfast. When he does unwrap it he will make some kind of joke like "oh is it the new laptop that I wanted?" knowing full well it isn't and I start to feel bad for giving such a rubbish/cheap present even though it is a thoughtful present within my budget as I'm a student. I dread buying presents for him.

So be prepared for the laptop remark and say 'Ha ha, that's funny!' You're doing well.

Also be prepared for him 'forgetting' it's there to provoke a reaction, again. Just carry on with your day. You know you did your best to get him a nice present. Don't play his game.

(hugs) I find the phrase (to be thought rather than said :D) "what is his problem?!" useful as it reminds you that it's more his problem that yours. Yes, people are hurt and upset by his behaviour but ultimately they'll go spend time with more pleasant friends and family (if they have any sense) instead. In the long run he loses out more.
It helps a little having your own place, car & income.
If you think it won't just go horribly wrong, see if you can - when he's not acting up - get him to tell you about his life when he was a kid and young adult, what his family were like, how they treated him etc. This gives you the opportunity to say HOW AWFUL etc I just want to give the 17 year old you a hug and ask what the family's background and upbringing was like that they ended up being so horrid to him. There might arise the opportunity to say that they were adults and should have controlled their behaviour, even though things had not been easy for them...

Yes it's a bit of a punt but you never know. Have an exit strategy for if you feel the mood is going south though, even if it's just needing the toilet!

@LovePeonies thank you for starting this thread and describing everything in such detail. I find it very helpful, both your account of events and other people’s advice. ‘Grey rock’ approach is particularly effective, but very hard work. The whole thing is exhausting and anxiety inducing whatever you do. You just can't relax in the presence of someone like this.

I could have written your post, except it’s my husband, not my father, who’s like this. We are divorcing after almost 20 years of marriage. My 13 year old daughter is crumbling underneath. Just like you, she is considerate, emotionally mature and very accommodating, but it comes at a price of her own mental health. You shouldn’t need to be so insanely accommodating, you shouldn’t be responsible for other people’s happiness.

I have also noticed autistic traits, but I don’t think it’s all there is to it. Autism requires a lot of patience from friends and family but it is more bearable. Controlling behaviour, contempt, feeling of entitlement are not autistic traits, and they elevate this behaviour to a level of emotional abuse. Sometimes subtle, sometimes not so much. If you talk to your mother, you may discover a whole lot of incidents and insults you never knew about.

The only solution is low contact, which is very hard with close family. This is how my marriage ended, I was avoiding my husband’s company more and more over the years, until I was strong enough to leave and there was nothing left to rescue. When you go low contact, you may even be able to provide useful corrective feedback every time you notice bad behaviour, without suffering too much yourself, and you may enjoy whatever his redeeming qualities are more (I hope there is something! but way too often it's money).

Watch out for low self esteem as an aftermath of this toxic relationship. Not in a ‘shy’ way, you won't grow up shy next to someone like this, but a constant self-doubting kind of way. You may want to check out Six Pillars Of Self-Esteem book which provides useful practical advice on building your self esteem.

Best wishes and thanks again for providing a glimpse of what my daughter might be thinking in a couple of years time. You sound very strong and you should be proud of yourself.

xxx

Link to the book: Six Pillars Of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden Ph.D.

One more thought.

I would say that your original question - why is he like that - is indicative of manipulation too.

Standard, healthy behaviour is this: if people make us feel shit, we don't hang around. It's not complicated. Feelings are not complicated, they are not logical things, they are bodily functions and they are definitely not what someone thinks you should feel, not something you should figure out as such,... you just feel it.

It's then for those other people to figure out why they're like that and how they can do better. Your job is to be in touch with your own feelings, accept them for what they are and act accordingly.

I knew the first comment would be about autism. I'm autistic and NOT rude. Haven't RTFT and so by now perhaps he's diagnosed and there we are. Most autistic people I know (and I know plenty) are really sensitive people who would hate to hurt or offend anyone.

I’m not convinced he has any ‘disorder’. I think he’s just a prick.
If anything he probably has low self esteem and boosts it by being mean to others.
He has certainly got you all well trained too.
Doesn’t want to go anywhere? Fine stay at home.
Hasn’t had any lunch? Make his own.

Is horrible to others when in company? Stop going out with him.
Just stop reacting to his behaviour.

I think that what you are describing here with your dad is narcissistic personality disorder.
His overall lack of any sort of empathy is the key indicator here to this. My guess too is that one or both his parents behaved very much the same.

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist .

Does he and for that matter your mother too, have any friends, not mere acquaintances but friends?. Probably not.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
He sounds like a narcissist, maybe with some misogynistic views.
My dad is much like this, he was a great dad to me until my late teens and at this point he has disowned his entire family (all we ever did was love and support him) . I was the last to be cut out but he chose two days before my wedding to do it in as cruel a way as possible.
I really think some men, especially those who rely heavily on their mums seem to be very narcissistic. I don't fully get why but I've seen it a lot.

September cannot come soon enough. He sounds dreadful OP and more like narcissism than anything else. He behaves so badly because of his insecurities. But why should you have to chuck away your lunch to appease him? Ugggh.

@user0002846727 Thank you for your reply and advice, I really appreciate it.

@BraverThanYouBel1eve It truly is exhausting. I have noticed recently that as soon as I hear my Dad's voice or as soon as he gets home from the supermarket etc I start feeling anxious waiting for when his bad behaviour will start. I am sorry that you and your daughter have had to go through such a similar situation, it really is awful. You have shown such courage in choosing to divorce him and end the abusive treatment and such a great example and role model to your daughter to not tolerate being treated abusively. I will definitely purchase and read the book you recommended as I do have really low self-esteem. Thank you for your reply and I wish you and your daughter all the best.

@bitheby I completely agree with you and it is something I have deliberately tried to avoid implying. I know many people with autism and they are kind, compassionate, empathetic, patient, etc.

@Tlollj I think there is an underlying cause because it is so predictable and follows the same blueprint everytime. He eerily matches lots of descriptions of NPD behaviour. It is also easier said than done to stop reacting to his behaviour. This is something I have been dealing with my entire life. One example is when I was around 7-8 years old I was in the supermarket with him and my sister. We were bored and started "misbehaving" (nothing bad or disruptive to other customers, just telling jokes to each other and giggling rather than standing silently). He walked out of the supermarket and told us he was leaving without us because we embarrassed him leaving us there alone with the trolley full of food and not sure what to do as we didn't want to just leave a full trolley in the middle of the aisle. He just waited at the front of the store for us but we thought he was going to drive home without us. When you grow up around that kind of behaviour you learn to do everything to minimise or prevent it from happening and become a passive, compliant person and it is hard to go against that.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I agree, I really do think it is NPD now. I know I cannot diagnose but I have been as objective as I can be when reading the descriptions and criteria for NPD and it does align well with his behaviour. He has a few friends that he has been friends with since childhood but not many, no. My DM has lots of friends though although my Dad dislikes them.

@serendipity909 I am so sorry your Dad did that to you, especially just before your wedding day. That is so heartbreakingly cruel.

Firstly what did your mother see in him and why has she stayed?
It must be awful for her as well.
I had a friend like this for 30 years who deliberately antagonised everyone just because he could. His wife was more my friend so his was a kind of default friendship.
I'm pretty tolerant but when he posted a blackface meme on my facebook page and insulted one of my friends who is black and extremely high powered in banking I absolutely saw red and thought you vile nasty shit of a man and we've not spoken since. This guy wasn't autistic he just did these things because he could.
Your dad could be autistic or he could just be absolutely bloody minded and difficult, it's hard to tell.
I'd be telling him he's going to grow old alone because you are sick of him.

@BraverThanYouBel1eve I bought the Kindle version of the book you recommended (Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden) and I have just finished reading it this afternoon, I couldn't put it down. It was really helpful as I have always struggled with defining what self-esteem actually is and how to raise it. I feel like it has given me hope and a sense of power over my situation rather than being a helpless product of my upbringing. Thank you for recommending it.

@madcatladyforever I don't really want to write too much about my parents' marriage as it feels a bit out of my place to do so. My parents got married when they were quite young so I think my DM just did not see the red flags.

With regards to NPD, I got to a point where I no longer care what it is. It may be NPD, bullying, complex trauma, autism or anything else, I'm not completely sure, but what I know for sure is that it is unhealthy and damaging, and that I must remove myself and my children from the situation for the sake of our well-being. I have been afraid to leave for many years, but I now got to a point where I'm equally, or maybe even more afraid to stay.

What strongly points to NPD though is the no-win nature of the drama. In the situations you described your dad is not offering a constructive solution. This is not healthy/normal, and it is strongly indicative of the narcissistic disorder. In the example with your lunch he is offering you to keep eating lunch whilst feeling guilty or to disrespect yourself by stopping to eat it. Both outcomes leave you with a bad feeling, with a feeling that you've done something wrong, when you really haven't. Considerate, emotionally capable people don't do this, they act in a supportive way even if the situation is difficult (which lunch shouldn't be!) and aim to make everyone feel good about the outcome if at all possible.

@madcatladyforever
Firstly what did your mother see in him and why has she stayed?

Often an abusive relationship starts when the victim is vulnerable and is misled to believe that without the abuser's help they wouldn't make it. So that's one possible scenario. With regards to 'why stayed', most common reasons are fear and shattered self-esteem. In addition, abusive relationship goes through phases where everything seems to be just fine, and it is very confusing to separate those times in your head from abusive episodes. On average, it takes 8 attempts to leave an abusive relationship before it really happens (Women's Aid stats).

@LovePeonies I'm glad you like the book. Even though your relationship with your dad is difficult, the challenges associated with it also present significant opportunities for personal growth. You'll come out of this stronger that you've ever been. All the best x

Little Lies I has an abuse story where the husband is absolutely and unquestionably acting as a great dad to their two boys some of the time, and then he acts like a fucking lunatic at other times. His wife knows she has to leave him but...she doesn't. It's a really well developed story.

Big Little Lies:
(not sure what happened to the link above)

@BraverThanYouBel1eve Ohh that clip was hard to watch, I could feel my anxiety rising as that is a kind of conversation I have seen happen/been involved in many, many times. Although my Dad is not violent like that character.

Yes in the TV series this guy is physically violent which makes the abuse more obvious and graphic.

In real life though it's not like physical abuse is always the most damaging type of abuse. Emotional and verbal abuse can be just as damaging or even more damaging, because it is more difficult to spot and more difficult to prove. Emotional abuse tends to go on for longer before it is confronted. Also there may be instances of physical abuse in your family that happened without you knowing.

Watch the whole series of Big Little Lies if you can, it explains quite well why some women never leave their abusive husbands.