Dad has no empathy or social skills - why?

[LovePeonies]

My Dad has really poor social skills. I have a whole lifetime of experiences I could write about (!) but I will try and be brief.

He constantly judges and criticises other people. For example if we were in a restaurant and there was someone overweight he would make a comment like "look over there at them stuffing their face". Or he could see someone in the street and would say something about their appearance. He mainly criticises women which is a great example he has given to me and my sister growing up (!) It is really, really rude and hurtful and we always tell him to stop being so horrible but he never does. My DSis, DB, DM and I avoid going to places with him as much as we can. However, my sister and I went on a walk with him during lockdown as we knew there would not be many people around. However he instead criticised people's homes, cars and front gardens - "their house looks a mess, so rundown", "their front garden looks stupid". It is summer, a lot of people would had their windows fully open so they likely heard him. If I or anyone else tell him to stop being rude or to be quiet he raises his voice deliberately to embarrass us and tells us to not tell him what to do. He does not comprehend that other people can hear him or that if he must make such horrible comments he should whisper or lower his voice.

Even aside from the cruel comments he makes, he is uncomfortable in all social situations too like when we went to a family wedding he wanted to go home straight after the ceremony, or when we visit relatives he will either stay home or make us leave after very a short time. When we had family or friends visiting our home (pre-lockdown) he would always go out. He is also really poor at making eye contact and struggles to make conversation. If I ever try and talk to him about something I just get "hmm" in response and that's it and I can tell he is not really listening to me. He doesn't participate in any of our family celebrations like he never comes to restaurants when we are celebrating a family member's birthday, graduation, engagement, etc. It is really quite hurtful.

I just do not understand the cause of it. I cannot interpret why he acts that way. I understand that you could just say he is a mean person but I feel like that paired with the lack of social skills implies something more like an actual condition?

It is just so difficult to live with.

Yesterday I was sitting in the kitchen eating my lunch and he demanded that I help him with something and I asked if I could help him after I had finished my lunch as I was nearly finished and he starts making me feel guilty "oh yeah you just sit there and eat your lunch, I am starving and haven't eaten anything all day and feel weak from hunger but I'll just do everything in this house whilst you sit there eating" as if me eating my lunch is the most selfish, self-indulgent thing I could possibly do. I am, hand-on-heart, not lazy and I always help out a lot at home. I ended up throwing the rest of my lunch in the bin and went to help because I can't bear to be thought of as someone who just sits there and doesn't help. The thing is though my Dad does barely anything around the house but the very rare occasion he has to do something he suddenly is "the only one who does anything in this house" which is a complete lie.

Before we would only have talked to my DM like that but ever since my siblings and I have become young adults he talks to us in the same way. I am so ground down from it.

I move back to university in September though thank goodness.

Also, my mum used to say how awful it was that people were overweight and 'how fat the country was getting' when she was in the street and it is possible people heard her. There was also the racism and homophobia .
Her brother is severely autistic with learning difficulties and she would be the first one to say how badly he was treated as a child by her aforementioned father, so she has empathy. It's just empathy towards people she thinks deserves it or wants control over who it is directed to.
I think your dad's childhood is very telling. It was like mine, but I wasn't put on a pedestal (which admittedly isn't good).
I have ADHD myself and and had ridiculously high expectations put on to me and was verbally and emotionally abused by my mum amongst other flagellating behaviours.
Your dad most likely hasn't recovered from this, people might assume that because something was so long ago that it would have been forgotten about, but it can in fact escalate and manifest if it isn't treated. That's what's therapy is for.
When you say he is devoid of emotion, it could be because it was how most men were taught to present in the days when he was growing up.
Most of the men in my family are emotionally unavailable in some way in my family. My brother is both outwardly racist and homophobic which I've talked to him about on numerous occasions but he is just not willing to shift his mindset. It's not nice.
My family is unfortunately quite 'traditional' and Victorian.
You're not a man if you cry apparently or show excitement about certain things.

I meant it is good not to be made to feel superior as a child.

If his brother has it then it’s very likely your dad has it. He’s displaying the traits. I’m amazed you haven’t considered this

My dad is someone who loves socialising but has absolutely no social skills.
He can zero in on a persons biggest insecurity and will draw attention to it. If you call him up on it he will say "it's only a joke", even though it has quite clearly hurt the other persons feelings. He'd look down his nose at people who he felt were worse off than him... ie:

Dad: How much do you earn a month
Person: Answers
Dad: Ha! I wouldn't get out of bed for that!

As a result he is a social butterfly with very few friends. He is also like this with his own family. My brother didn't get a job until he was in his 20s (I suspect depression played a part in this). Every time my dad saw him he'd go on at him to get a job. Once my brother started working, he'd then go on about him having a girlfriend. Now his topic to pick at is my brother learning to drive.

Now if my dad is rude to anybody I just start making nasty comments to him. He is massively insecure but that doesn't give him the god given right to deal with it by making other people feel like shit. I have self esteem issues but I don't make it other people's problems so I have no sympathy!

I have known people who have autism and who have been diagnosed as NPD and there are elements of both of these things in your description of your dad. Unfortunately, you will probably never get a definitive answer as to why he is behaving the way he is. This would take your dad making steps to identify and explain his behaviour and to be willing to go to relevant specialists for diagnosis, and I very much doubt that would happen.

What you have to do from this point forward is develop coping strategies against his comments and observations . Build a wall against them as much as you can, counselling can be very helpful in helping you with this and might be something you can consider at some point.

You only have control over your behaviour, not anyone elses. But learning that you can find ways to protect yourself can be quite empowering. It really helped in my experience of learning to cope with my mum's behaviour. She was different in that she was lovely to everyone except me.

I think you sound like a thoughtful young woman and I hope university goes well for you when you return in September .

My mother was exactly the same as this.

Not autism. Narcissistic personality disorder.

Few people with autism are manipulative/play the victim in the way you describe - the eating lunch thing. Lots of people with NPD are.

You can have traits of both - autism and NPD. My dad was diagnosed in his later years with autism, he was always less respectful to women as he generally felt superior to them as did most men of his era. (born in 1939)

My dad also loved socialising - a total extrovert! Mostly, because of his charm and intelligence he got away with his rudeness. A very complex character and much missed

how other fathers would kill anyone who would try to hurt their “little girl” or have those lovely moments of pride and affection and love, my Dad isn’t like that. He’d never say “you look nice” to any of us or, I could have walked across the lounge in a ball gown and he’d never ask why/where I was going. And like yours doesn’t seem to listen if you initiate conversation. It’s like I’m boring him just by attempting to talk.

Snap. I remember hearing "come over and see us more" and thinking "well if you really felt that wouldn't you behave like you had some interest in me or my life and have actual conversation, rather than winding everyone up with PA '...but I was only...' remarks, or monologuing about notoriously dull hobbies".

The sad thing is I do have an idea about what a normal loving Dad would be like because of my FiL and stepdad.

It's so sad really.

Anyway. Screw that lunch sh1t. Have some boundaries. "There's snacks in the fridge if you're hungry Dad...". If he acts like a toddler treat him like one (surprisingly effective)

My DH is like this and either it's got worse in the last few years or my patience with it is wearing thin.

In short, never to me, always to others so it's taken a while for me to see it, he's horrible. Can't drive a car without ranting and raving about other drivers, and these drivers can be doing totally opposite things from one day to the next so there isn't even any sense to it. Will ram his trolley into people in the supermarket (not anymore) if they're in his way and he shouldn't have to say excuse me because they were the wrong ones for being in the way. Hates women and will rant about how fat and stupid certain women are. He is never wrong and will argue black is white.

I think as he's got older and bolder, and it's gone unchallenged he in turn has become more confident in behaving in this way.

Extremely insecure and believes he has no social skills despite being immensely popular, confident and social when we first met. Lots of people found him very funny and edgy which I think wears off as people get older. Now sees very few friends and feels uncomfortable in almost all social situations outside of his family.

He will actively mock people at work and then they in turn make fun of him he can't cope with it. He's cried before at home over incidents where he has said things borderline inappropriate and his colleagues have laughed at him about it. He KNOWS what he's saying, it's not like he's unaware or can't help it. He can't cope with anything less than adulation.

It's absolutely exhausting, our marriage won't survive long term. I've no idea if he has any sort of condition. I have very few positive things to say to be honest, in the last year or so the scales have fallen from my eyes.

Google “grey rock “ OP, I think it might help you deal with him. Basically you aim to be as boring as possible, so he will move on to another target. Narcs love drama.

So you ask him once if he wants a ticket to an event, not several times. Then when he starts on his speech about how Cruel you are to go without him, you just say something bland like OK.

Or “ if you say so “ . Or “I’m sure are right “. Or “ that’s an interesting opinion”. Mostly say “ I don’t know “.

Then off you all go to your event.

Stop telling him about things if he ever never listens.

Stop expecting him to attend family events.

Stop asking him to go for walks if he makes rude comments.

Stop giving up your ticket or your lunch for him.

TBH I don’t know why you say he has poor social skills. I think he’s very skilled at doing exactly what he wants all the time and having you all dance around him. And he doesn’t have to do anything he doesn’t want to.

I'd love to understand more about how people (more often men maybe) get socially worse with age. Call it MarkESmith syndrome, eh. It's so sad when you have someone who used to be ok...ish and turned into just not a very nice person.

People now know about how vital the right environment for children is. There hasn't been as much concentration on what happens in the late teens and twenties.

@JaffaJaffJaffpussycatpuss Both his parents were very emotionally unavailable so you are probably right that it stems from not having that kind of behaviour modelled to him when he was growing up.

@KingJarvisofPulp I have considered it at length and discussed it with my DM and sister quite a lot. Sometimes we think he has Autism but other times we think it may be something more. I agree he has a lot of the symptoms though.

@WaitingForTheTurn79 I think he may have NPD. There are many other situations I could describe, particularly of how he treats my DM that I think would align with how NPD manifests. Reading the signs and symptoms I can check nearly everyone aside from "Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love". He is not preoccupied with these things but I feel that he feels entitled to them without any effort on his part and I think that makes him feel very bitter.

What I find difficult is sometimes my Dad acts "normal"/nice so I start to feel guilty for harbouring bad feelings about him but then he will do something so unacceptable that I am reminded why I had those thoughts in the first place.

I will definitely look into techniques for shielding myself from the effects of his behaviour though. Thank you for the well wishes. :)

@ChristmasFluff Yes, thank you for writing that. I was trying to articulate why I don't think it is autism, or at least why it is not autism on its own and you have hit the nail on the head. It is the manipulation of it all. I know several people from Autism and whilst there can be similarities with how my Dad acts none of them are manipulative. In fact they are the opposite and very direct and straightforward.

@user0002846727 I really do need to work on my boundaries. I have seen my DM walk on eggshells to avoid upsetting my Dad and I have learnt to do the same to some degree. When I do try and stand up to him he gets furious, particularly if I highlight how predictable his behaviour is or how manipulative he is being, it really hits a nerve. I hate when he gets really angry as he shouts a lot, sometimes breaks things and sometimes gets in the car and drives off erratically, turns his phone off and stays out for hours and I start to worry. When my DSis, DB and I were younger his go-to punishment for us if we misbehaved was to leave and tell us he was never coming back.

@Scruffbob My Dad is the same with driving. He is constantly getting into arguments with other drivers and does things like slow down in front of them to 'annoy' them if he thinks they have done something wrong. I hate being in the car with him as it is so stressful. He is also insecure but because he isolates himself from others so much he never gets knocking down but on the rare occasion it happens and someone tries to tease him about something he gets really, really upset by it. I am sorry that you are going through this.

@SHAR0N I will definitely try that technique, thank you. I always struggled to know how to do grey rock when you live with the person so your examples are really helpful. You are right, he is very skilled at manipulating.

If you truly feel that your dad has NPD then you need to do a lot of reading and try and access counselling. Being raised by a narcissistic parent is extremely damaging and will have affected you in ways that you aren't even aware of.

I'm sorry, it really does sound extremely difficult. But you are fortunate that you spotted this just now. Being raised by someone who has NPD makes it more likely that you will surround yourself with people who are also high in narcissistic traits. Become an expert on the signs of narcissism and do work on yourself to ensure you recognise good relationships.

It's a very difficult situation to be in, and I'm sorry.

@WaitingForTheTurn79 I am now convinced of it. I have done some reading and I am convinced. I know I am not a professional so shouldn't diagnose but the description is eerily accurate.

I just tried the grey rock method that @SHAR0N suggested and he got annoyed with me. I just said "ok" to him in a neutral tone and he starts getting annoyed saying "why are you talking to me like that? in that tone?"

@SonEtLumiere Yes I have tried saying things like that in a past and if I mention anything like him repeating a predictable pattern of behaviour or him acting like a victim it really strikes a nerve and he gets really angry. Sometimes I think I can deal with the anger but then I start getting upset at myself for causing someone to react like that and causing a foul mood which in turn affects everyone else in the house.

Yes, SonEtLumiere, I think it's a long term process, not a one off thing.
However, OP, it's not your job to parent him as he should have been a long time ago. I 100% wouldn't blame you if you walked away.

I just tried the grey rock method that @SHAR0N suggested and he got annoyed with me. I just said "ok" to him in a neutral tone and he starts getting annoyed saying "why are you talking to me like that? in that tone?"

Well of course he will get annoyed, you are Spoiling all the fun get gets from Winding you up. The aim is to stop getting upset so he gets bored.

Why are you speaking to me in that tone ?

I don’t know what you mean.

When I said that Boris Johnson was the greatest PM since Churchill you just said OK. What’s wrong with you?

Nothing. I don’t really have an opinion on it.

I though you young people loved labour but they are a bunch of ducking idiots

Whatever you say.

You are nuts . Maybe you need to see a doctor, you are mental.

You’re probably right.

Or something like that. Narcs Get bored very quickly when they don’t have source.

Eg you crying and begging him to come to an event and giving him your ticket.

Eg you all pleading with him to attend a family wedding with you

Eg you begging him to talk quietly as he shouts “ that gardens a ducking mess “ outside someone’s house.

Eg you throwing your sandwich in the bin.

He LOVES all that stuff . And you hate it. So stop, as much as you can while you still have to live there.

He reminds me a lot of my mother. Much the same thing, never has a good word to say about ANYBODY. It gets so fucking wearing after a while...

She lives on the other side of the world, and about 10 years ago had health problems which ultimately lead to her having a pacemaker fitted. Unfortunately I'd already arranged to travel to see her before the operation was scheduled and couldn't cancel without losing a substantial amount of money. She had the operation about a day before I arrived, she was staying in hospital for 2 nights so they could make sure it was working properly before releasing her. What is usually a 24 hour flight ended up being 40 hours due to delays on route...I finally arrived a about 5am in the morning. My brother met me at the airport, we got a taxi to her apartment and were sat chatting. My brother said that the hospital has asked him not to ring for a update until 9am...we rang on the dot of 9, got through to my mother and the first thing she did was berate me for not going straight to the hospital from the airport! No 'hello,' no 'how was your flight', (and she knew about the delay as my brother had told her), just straight in on the attack. I got off the phone and was in tears. I just wanted to get on a plane straight back to the UK. I was supposed to be staying for 2 months but after 4 weeks where she was being so horrible 24/7 my brother paid for me to change my return ticket to an earlier date...

I also think my mother has NPD. She's been like this all my life, has definitely got worse as she has got older. She wanted - expected - all the good things in life but also expected other people to get them for her...she didn't want to have to do any work at all. After she married my father she didn't have a job until she was forced to get one when he left...the way she acted you would have thought she'd been sold into slavery!

Get out as soon as you can. Spend as little time as possible in his company. Don't blame yourself for 'causing him to react like that' - you aren't, it's just him, this is the way he is. You can't change it, but you don't have to put up with it.

Get out as soon as you can. Spend as little time as possible in his company. Don't blame yourself for 'causing him to react like that' - you aren't, it's just him, this is the way he is. You can't change it, but you don't have to put up with it.

Excellent advice.
Look, grey rock is a learned skill - some of us are twice your age and still getting a handle on it - but it does help.
If you make a life for yourself that doesn't depend on his behaviour then you can choose to spend time with him in circumstances where (you think) he's less likely to misbehave.

I very much get the sadness that due to this you won't have the father-daughter relationship you'd ideally like. But I don't think it's likely that there's anything you can do to fix that :(

I've just been searching for threads for advice, because I've reached the end of my tether with my father. So glad to read the grey rock advice.

My father lives abroad. He's in his mid-eighties and for the past six months his attitude towards me has become almost openly hostile. It's not new that he's critical of me - or others. In his view, those who live their lives in a different way to the way he's chosen are wrong. At the moment he is furious with the UK - Brexit is wrong (I don't disagree), government handling of C19 is wrong (again, I don't disagree). I appear to have some personal blame in this though and our weekly Skype calls now feature him leaning into the camera ranting at me. He's taken to criticising my parenting, my job choice, my finances (not that he knows what they are), my in-laws and anything else.

He's always given me the impression that I'm not good enough and anything I do is of little interest to him. At my wedding 30 years ago (which was, of course, wrong as it was a church wedding, and I should have had a quiet registry office - that's what he would have done) he managed to start a row with me about my poor choice of husband and lack of prospects. His view of me is that I'm financially insecure, stupid and feckless with an unhappy future ahead of me. I've long thought that he is at the root of my lack of self-esteem.

So, I was thinking of just cutting contact but I'll try the grey rock method and see if that diffuses some of his bile.

The suggestion by someone to treat him as you would a toddler, or even a dog you are training, makes sense. Don't reward bad behaviour with any attention.
I'm thinking you have little need to worry about him, but maybe could use your grown up status to put in some training work on him, for the sake of your mother?
When you leave, she faces him alone.
I'm not being disrespectful of your dad, it is in everyones best interest, including his own, to be taught that bad behaviour gets no reward of attention, but reasonable behaviour brings smiles, praise, approval and all the attention he might wish.

As others have said, he has learned to manipulate, bully, and threaten. Unchecked, this may well get worse, especially when he is alone with his wife. If he carries out the implied threats of violence, he can and must face the domestic violence law. So far, you don't seem to really be in fear, and don't seem to think she is at risk, other than having her life made miserable, when you escape to uni. But you mentioned he throws things. That's intimidation. That's illegal.

P.s. Good for you to be so considerate of him. You are young to need to recognise classic ' abuse red flags'. Others have suggested you don't placate him or give in to him. With things like throwing your own food away, to obey his unreasonable demand for instant service, you are doing what is called 'enabling'.

He is a grown man, why can't he make his own food?
This is so hard for you, needing to be the parent of your parent, but you must. Clearly, you have what it takes to be a responsible adult, and he doesn't.

OP I sympathise as my Ddad sounds very similar. He's 70 now and it has caused huge problems in my parents marriage and our family over the years. I think my DM always thought he'd get better. 🙄

I wasted years trying to figure him out, challenge his behaviour all the while coping badly with my own life as my self esteem had been left in tatters by a childhood dominated by his negative attitude. He too had a tragic childhood really, very rejected by his own Ddad, but I also suspect autistic traits.

Finally in my late thirties I got some therapy and it helped so much. It also helped to see my mothers role in it all too. I am LC with my Ddad now, and my relationship with my DM is quite superficial. I feel sad for him because I think he's somewhat lonely and certainly has low self esteem himself, but I have had to detach for my own wellbeing.

I also feel sad for myself as I missed out on a doting father figure, but there we go. I have a very loving and positive DH. My biggest relief is that I did not choose someone like my Ddad.

In my experience, these behaviours worsen with age, so try to disengage as much as you can. Oddly I think some of the worst effects of it I suffered were in my twenties. My Dsis, DM and I much better at detaching now, and funnily enough his behaviour does improve at times.

You sound very self aware, so go off and enjoy your young adult life without his dark cloud sucking the joy out of life!