Husband is a disaster

[Alittlebitofbasil]

Sorry if this is a long one - I feel like I need to rant! To give you some background, DH and I have been together for 20 years. Met at university in our final year just after his dad died. I went on to do a masters, he did nothing with his degree, I think he was very lost after his DF died and didn’t really deal with it.

He flitted from low paid job to low paid job, not using any of his qualifications. He worked in sales and was fired on several occasions for not hitting targets, including when I was pregnant with DS2. In the meantime, I worked my way up in my industry and did well in my career. l went part time after DS1 was born. We never had any money though as I was always paying off our credit cards, supporting him if he was out of work or supplementing his poor income. Fast forward to two years ago: he finally got a job he was good at and suddenly we had a lot of money. I thought our lives had finally changed for the better and our relationship was the best it had been in years and we were happy. And then he got fired again. He did find a new job the same week which paid well and in the same sector so the stress was short lived. However, I was angry at him for losing yet another job. I also discovered he’s in £12000 of debt as he’s been putting extra money in our account to look like he’d paid more than he actually is. This is ridiculous as he actually has a very good salary but a bit lower than his previous one.

His former employer is now trying to claim from him £50000 in commission earned on contracts that have now been cancelled. So DH has disputed this and we are now £6000 into solicitor’s fees (the tip of the iceberg) whilst awaiting to hear a tribunal date. We’ve no savings so have had to borrow money on the house to pay towards the legal fees.

I’m just so fed up of him fucking up again. I feel like we lurch from one disaster to another, with some nice times in between. He’s a brilliant dad, very kind and caring and would do anything for me and DS’s. When I suffered from depression a couple of years ago, he really was my rock and supported me through it and I can honestly say he’s my best friend. But I’m not sure how many more chances I can give him. Is it too much to ask that he holds down a steady job without any drama or incidences? I’ve told him to get some counselling to help him break this pattern and to maybe think about working for himself but deep down, I’m not sure he can change. Do I give up on someone I love and break the family up because he’s a disaster at work and the cause of much stress in our lives?

Another person here who thinks you need to get to the bottom of what really happened with his last employer, because that sounds like half a story - at best.

Splitting up financially, even if you stay together as a couple, would seem to be the only answer here.

Tricky one this. Differences of perception about money can be so important in relationships, especially long term ones and especially where children are involved.

I have to say for starters, that it sounds (feels) from your posts like the relationship is good in most ways, from both your points of view. It also sounds like he's not fundamentally lazy or dishonest the way some partners are that people end up on here tearing their hair out about. It's just that this side of life has never worked very well for him. People are good, and not so good, at different things.

I'm always baffled by how anyone can survive and make a living in commission-based sales. I'm in awe of anyone that can do it. It sounds like your DH is just not quite up to it, which probably just makes him like most people.

If I were you, by the sounds of it, I'd try and separate the financial issue as much as possible from everything else. Don't read too much into it in terms of your attitudes to each other, what you provide or owe to the family as a whole, etc. etc. Just see it as a practical problem to be solved. You earn a decent, steady wage that looks like being reliable pretty much forever. He earns a lot more, but his past pattern indicates it's likely to be erratic and could come or go at any point. Actually, that can be quite a strong basis for family finances. You get the rewards of a high income, plus some degree of security as well as you're not fully dependant on that income. You just need to work out together what is the amount you can realistically rely on earning, and not develop a lifestyle that is dependant on the extra beyond that.

Similarly, with the legal case, be as straightforward and objective about it as possible. It is what it is. People can get sued for stuff. Clearly you need to judge your likelihood of being able to contest it and what level of fees are worth paying for that.

But if they're seeking 50K in repayment of commission from him, then presumably that's commission they've paid him, yes? And presumably fairly recently rather than historically over years? So unless you've spent it all immediately, it's not like they're going to take you to the cleaners and make you homeless, I hope.

He’s a brilliant dad

A brilliant Dad supports his family financially and doesn't lie to his children's mother

Quite clearly there is an awful lot going on here that goes right back to the beginning of your relationship. You say you got together after his father died, which sounds like your role was supportive then? There is the issue of what people do or don’t do with a degree. It clearly doesn’t make sense to you that your husband didn’t use his degree in order to pursue a specific profession. I get the sense he somehow lost direction then and I wonder how he’s felt about his paid work since? He certainly seems to self sabotage a lot. I can feel the frustration at having to always pick up the pieces. I’m not getting the sense he picks up those pieces for himself, but you do it for him. Is that how it feels? Do you deep down feel he’d fall apart without your interventions? Money can mean a lot in a relationship, often how people hold power in it. Beyond sorting out the difficult situation you are in at present, I’d suggest some relationship therapy as well to look at the ingrained patterns.

Oh dear, this sounds like a big mess. An employer wouldn't spend that much on legal fees taking someone to court unless they felt they were on pretty solid ground. I'd be rather worried about that. Do you have savings that could cover repayment of this if necessary? Does he still have any of the money they paid him?

From the sounds of it, he may have run up £62K of debt without your knowledge. That's not small change, even if it was over many years. Is there any chance that he has a gambling addiction? Or something else going on that would cost him a LOT of money? There aren't a lot of explanantions for being that far in debt unless he's lied to you in a fairly sustained way. You need to have a difficult conversation with him.

Let's assume that there's an innocent explanation for the debt. If he's just useless with money, is he willing to hand over financial control to you, and just have a current account with no overdraft and no access to credit cards? (We had to do this to MIL, my DH spoke to various banks and they were quite understanding of the mess and were more helpful than I'd expected). If he can get into that much debt, he may need to accept that you need to hold the reigns for at least a while to get your family in the clear. If he won't accept that, you need to question whether your relationship is worth getting into debt over and over again.

How old is your DS? You've been with DH for 20 years, so I'm assuming he's not young? Could you go back to being full time so that a larger amount of your family income is secure? Would also help you pay off debts faster. That shouldn't let your DH off the hook for keeping down a job, but would be a short term fix if possible.

Thank you Fifteen, your objective approach is what I need right now.

Unfortunately, the £50000 was paid out at different stages over two years and used for living expenses during that time. We don’t have that kind of money if he loses

Could you both go full time? If you both go full time surely it can pay for a nanny or nursery? He doesn't sound reliable so I think you really need to focus on your career and moving up the latter. He makes more now, but if you work full-time, you could move up and make more.

I would def worry about the legal fee situation, I agree most big companies would just let it go unless they had really good reason (although if they cancelled contracts after he was fired I don't really get how that his fault or how they can ask for the $$ back).

I don't think you realize how much stress he is putting on you. Hiding debts/money problems is breaking a baseline of trust needed. Can you try couples counseling?

Are you sure you have the full story about this legal case? If the contracts on which he was paid this commission were correctly concluded, the companies shouldn't be able to just cancel them (especially after 2 years?) and your DH certainly shouldn't be liable to repay his commission. Alternatively if the contracts can be cancelled I can't see that the commission structure would be set up to pay him the full amount upfront in order to avoid exactly this scenario. Something smells off here. Have you seen all the documentation relating to the case, are you involved in the legal meetings?

Cross-post! I see you've just posted that the commission was, in fact, paid in stages - which suggests that the contracts have been at least partially fulfilled. Presumably these stage payments were all made while he was working for this employer and did not continue afterwards - so some of the payments date from even more than 2 years ago?

Crafty - yes, that’s exactly it: he messes up, I pick up the pieces. I do feel if I wasn’t there to sort out his mess, then he would bury his head in the sand and things would escalate.

Divorce his so you don't loose the house.

If you were doing better in your career before children, why on earth were you the one going part time after?!

@lockdownstress "A brilliant Dad supports his family financially"

Sorry - but why must a father's role be financial?

OP said she went part time from a steady and well-paid job, when the children were born.

Clearly as a family they have recognised that not all contributions are financial.

I hate this trope on here where a man's input into family life must ALWAYS be financial. But women can contribute in many ways.

OP says he's a brilliant dad. Perhaps he looks after and cares for his kids, perhaps he emotionally supports them. Perhaps he does pick ups and drop offs and all sorts of stuff.

And perhaps his finances need not be the be all and end all of whether he's a good father or not.

I am so sorry your going through this-you must be worried sick. Your husband really needs to think about changing to a career that suits him better but at the moment I think you will both have to sit down and prepare for the worst case scenario, really worst case such as do you have enough equity in your house to pay the full £62.000 back and legal fees, of not will you be able to remortgage and keep up with the repayments, are there any pensions you can cash in, looking at smaller houses in not so great areas, you going back to work full time, you will also need to look at how you will live is if the worst truly does happen and you go bankrupt as well as seeing if you can legally ring fence your own assets/income so your family have at least one wage to live on-though I have no idea if that is a thing other than in divorces. My heart goes out to you money problems suck the life out of everything and ruin even the most minor of treats.

@OnceUponAThread they are both providing financially but the problem is HE is putting them in financial crisis because of his immature and reckless behaviour. In this situation he should be providing (alongside op) instead of destroying their financial stability. This will negatively affect their children’s lives and that is unacceptable.

You could do without being financially tied to him as you could lose everything. Divorce seeks a bit extreme when you do (I think) still want to be with him but I'm not sure what else you do! You certainly need to go back full time. Could he be a househusband instead? Surely he can't mess that up, you say he's a good dad....you will have less money but a secure job and free childcare. However, you've probably already realised you are the only adult here and financially a single parent...

@OnceUponAThread he may be a brilliant dad but if any partner is racking up debt secretly, doing the school drop offs doesn't compensate for that. The problem is obviously more than him needing to provide financially, the problem is he is actually endangering the family's finances through his behavior.

@birdy

Perhaps OP should be going back to work full time, cos them school runs ain't payin anybody. Or she could return to work and bear the brunt of the financial responsibility and her husband can go P/T and do the school runs.

@OnceUponAThread

And perhaps his finances need not be the be all and end all of whether he's a good father or not.

No one said a father's role is purely financial. A parent's role is partly financial though, especially when you consider how safety and security (each related to finances among other things) are linked to the overall wellbeing of children.

He may perform other parts of the role better but I struggle to justify the defence of someone who has forced their family into multiple significant financial crises.

As an aside, unless you have huge outgoings (which would be reckless knowing his track record), I'm surprised that £50,000 has disappeared so easily in just 2 years alongside your own salary OP.

I'm sympathetic to your situation but there's seems to be financial irresponsibility and general miscommunication all round here.

What do you get out of this relationship now?.

Re your comment:-
"I do feel if I wasn’t there to sort out his mess, then he would bury his head in the sand and things would escalate"

What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up?. How did you end up becoming this responsible for another adult?. I would further read about codependency and see how much if any of this fits in with your own behaviours. If you were not there to sort out his mess he would have to sort it for himself. You've been propping him up and enabling him and that only gives you a false sense of control. And as a result you and these children are being dragged down by him.

Women in poor relationships often write the good dad comment when they themselves can think of nothing else positive to write about their man.

Has he called ACAS re job advice and also some household insurances cover these sorts of things under legal cover perhaps?
Maybe worth checking.

I agree with @FifteenToes, with the exception of concerns about this law case. Have you seen the contracts? He should have copies of his contract, plus all those he was earning commission for. Have you met with the solicitor yourself?

The reason I ask is that ordinarily these disputes are the other way around: companies still have to pay out commission after someone is fired, and don’t, and so it ends up in court to make them pay out. For them to be pursuing this suggests there was an issue with the contracts he signed, in that they were somehow not valid or were agreed based on false claims. You should be very educated on the specifics of the suit, because the way you have presented it here doesn’t make sense. Given he has previously gotten into debt to disguise something he’s embarrassed about, I think you should make sure you’re independently verifying what he says.

Separating finances is a critical step here.

The thing is OP, if you stay with him, you need to become financially independent from him and take control of the family finances. If you separate, you need to become financially independent from him and will be solely responsible for family finances. So you kind of end up in the same situation either way.

My parents were in a similar situation when we were kids and my dad's business went under. It almost killed my parents marriage and eventually my grandparents bailed my parents out financially. I will tell you now, your kids will notice and will be effected by it. No matter how much you try to hide it.

I'm probably going off at a big tangent here, but there has been a clear difference in your attitudes to money and work from the outset. The way that you talk about how he hasn't gone onto use his degree while you have speaks volumes. It also speaks volumes that you describe your relationship as happy when he was earning more than you. I don't understand why it was you who went part time when you clearly had the greatest job security etc. I may be wide of the mark here, but it seems like you expect the male to be the financial provider yet have picked someone who clearly has a very different attitude. Although, it sounds like he is trying to fit into that ideal and has racked up debts in the process.

Personally, I would divorce.

I agree with unfortunateevents that the legal case as you've described it here doesn't make sense. The only reason I can imagine a company going after a salesperson for contracts from two years ago would be serious fraud, and then it would be a criminal matter not a civil one.

I have a pretty good idea how sales commissions work and in 20 years (in the past) have never had commissions clawed back. It's highly unusual.

The only time it would happen is if contracts were signed because he lied to get them. He mis sold not just once but multiple times.

You do occasionally get these sorts. They just can not tell the truth to save themselves and they make all kinds of promises to clients, tell them something will do x when it won't etc.

The only hope you have is if you control all the money but if they want their £50k back and he starts telling lies to clients at his new company then it starts all over again.

He really needs to talk to someone about why this is happening. It's extremely unpleasant and a pretty bad sign.

Before you put your heart and soul into it though you might want to check that he's not spending the money on other women (sugar babies, hookers, a mistress). This type are not generally faithful. They don't seem sleazy but they just can't help themselves.