Help with my ds relationship issues with DH

[justkeepmovingon]

I have a question, is it totally normal for a a 17 year old to not want to talk or share anything with his dad?

We are married two ds but neither feel they can talk to or trust DH with any news, secrets, girlfriends anything really. It's like they have absolutely no desire to engage with him unless they want something?

It's making me feel so sad as my eldest is just venturing into talking with his girlfriend a new relationship but he's sworn me to not tell his dad, he's asked me after lockdown can I drop him to hers and still keep it secret, he said he just can't be arsed with the smug and comments from DH.

@Iggly it's a new thing as my DS has matured so much and he's a lovely young adult not a child, I feel I may of recognised this, but my DH is stuck in banter DH mode and is insensitive.

So the gap is widening. And the crunch has been the new relationship my DS is forming.

I've tried to explain it to him, but he really can't see what he's like, but to be fair if I criticise anything I just get "no I didn't mean it like that" or "you're wrong" or the worse one "don't be silly"

The barging into his room thing needs to stop immediately, how dare he! It shows a complete lack of respect and boundaries. I started knocking on my sons' doors when they were still in primary school. His bedroom is his private space. If your Dh cannot respect that then I would be fitting a lock on your son's door.

Ds1 is 17 and he would tell Dh about any girls. We do have a jokey banter type relationship, all of us, but we all know when to lid it and put the serious hat on. That is what your Dh needs to do.

Piss taking will just alienate your son, not only from your Dh but also from you because why would he want to come back home when he has left? You come as a package deal.

This is quite a mature reaction from your ds.

Here is someone who has shown him over and over that he can’t trust this person with his feelings or boundaries.

Rather than constantly try and constantly get hurt, he has dropped the rope and adjusting his boundaries to protect himself.

Many children of those kind of parents spend their lives desperately trying to please to their detriment. Your ds isn’t.

That’s probably helped by your influence. That is shown by the fact he was willing to tell you and felt he trusted you enough not to tell his father.

Don’t wreck that by breaking that trust.

My mother was very intrusive when we were growing up. Very strict rules about how long we could sleep as teenagers in the morning (not past 9.30 or she'd hoover in), no locks on doors, would use anything we told her against us (eg as young children we'd had a playground tiff we'd be told that we were never going to have any friends etc the next time we annoyed her. No dating till 16, but when I dated at 17 she threatened to ring my boyfriend's mother and say he had to break up with me. No privacy for phone calls etc.

So we told her nothing and we still tell her nothing. My dad is an enabler for her behaviour but helped us keep our secrets - would collect me and tell her I'd been in town with some girls from school but he'd actually drop my boyfriend home too. We have to keep solid barriers up with her permanently because you can't let her in at all. So I can understand how your son feels.

@Aussiebean I have no intention of breaking his trust. I had a feeling he was chatting to a girl for a while now, but never asked.

I just have to decide how this works, as he's asking me to drop him to go for a a walk with her in the be t few works, already saying tell DH I'm seeing a friend called xxx. So he's making his alibi etc, it just feels really sad that my DH has somehow trashed the fact he can't enjoy this part of his sons life and enjoy the changes and new life he's forming.

Also thank you, I've never had locks on doors, so obvious and simple.

And maybe the physical reminder to stay away DH needs, I've ordered two just now and will fit them ASAP.

My DH put up walls as well as boundaries over the years re his late father. He learnt that dad was the type of man who, when not acting indifferently to his children and their mother at home, bragged to all and sundry.

I think all your dynamics are off.

Look at your title. You want to know how ds can engage with your husband. Not his dad.

You talk about how you get it right, but he gets it wrong. The opening post is all about what you can do. About what your is telling you.

It sounds like its developed into you and your children and dh on the outside. Probably because your husband is being a duck.

But its very possible he thinks the banter etc is the way to connect with teens. He may not know, how to connect with an almost adult male on an emotional level. So trying to keep them in the role of child. Then swinging to put them in the role of 'mate down the pub'.

What was his relationship like with his parents and male peers?

Is your DH bothered by the lack of emotional intimacy and trust in their relationship? Unless he is then nothing will change. I think it's fairly normal to be closer to one parent than the other and not necessarily something to feel sad about. However, barging into their rooms and not respecting their space is out of order and needs to stop.

@Trevsadick that's really observant and spot on, it is like he's on the outside.

DH doesn't have many friends in fact one, and he was a boarder, so didn't live at home during his teenage years, except holidays.

@Trevsadick also 100% correct about the mate down the pub, that's spot on. He's always talking about have a beer, can't wait to go down the pub etc. Both DS roll their eyes, refuse any drinks.

I do keep saying they don't want a drink leave them alone.

But its very possible he thinks the banter etc is the way to connect with teens. He may not know, how to connect with an almost adult male on an emotional level. So trying to keep them in the role of child. Then swinging to put them in the role of 'mate down the pub'.

Yep that sounds as if it's very much the case, but...

I've tried to explain it to him, but he really can't see what he's like, but to be fair if I criticise anything I just get "no I didn't mean it like that" or "you're wrong" or the worse one "don't be silly"

So the analysis may be correct, but the reason it's continuing (and developing into a big problem) is that he's a dick - dismissive of his wife, not prepared to look at his behaviour... a typical arsehole who thinks everyone else is wrong not him. His sons' reactions to his behaviour are ignored and minimised. His wife is denigrated as a nag for pointing it all out.

He's immature with a side order of arrogant, in short - and his sons are not, so they are quite logically starting to pull away.

You're right to think about the role he actually plays in their lives. You'd be wise to think of the future you want for your life, too. Is this emotionally retarded, silly, disrespectful man a good life partner? I don't see how he can be. How are you going to feel when your sons leave and start their own lives and you're left gritting your teeth with Mr 'Don't be silly'?

Think about that. Forget trying to fix any relationships - it's not even about 'things' your DH is ir isn't doing as much as it's just about who he is. They don't like him. They're probably wise not to.

Basically, by 17 your son has better boundaries than you. He has realised that his dad is an asshole who doesn't care about other peoples feelings. And is acting accordingly.

My son did the same when he got his first girlfriend. He didn't want DH to know as he'd be too over excited and ask to many questions.

When my DH did find out he was sad our DS felt he couldn't come to him but agreed, when told why, that yes, he would have been too much. Consequently they now have a much better relationship as DH steps back and just listens now, but it took his son telling him not me. Perhaps this can be. Agios thing for your DH/DS eventually.

A good thing even

@justkeepmovingon given the recent posts (and thank you for answering my questions) I think the family need to approach it different.

Everyone to criticise him you make him feel more and more on the outside. He is clearly struggling to know how to bond. And being told 'dont do this, thats wrong, they arenr interested' makes it worse.

I know its not your job and if he doesn't engage theres nothing you can do, but maybe some support about how they would like to be able to talk to him, about how he may not mean to come across how he does, but the imoacts are xyz.

He sounds like my asd son. He struggles to know how to bond with people, so often takes queues from things he has observed. But doesnt understand that relationshops take a while to get to 'banter' stage.

He sees people having fun acting one way and just does that. Really he is desperate to be like them and that those relationships. He just doesn't know how to get to a to b.

Obviously if he doesn't engage and doesn't see theres a problem. He is just a dick and trying to mould them into what he wants, see they arent as he had planned for them and trying to force them into being the sons he wants.

Hope that's helpful.

But she's tried Trevasdick.

She gets called silly. And that she's wrong.

You saying that the poor DH doesnt understand that relationshops take a while to get to 'banter' stage just sounds like you too have missed the point.

There IS no 'banter stage' to get to. For a start, he's their dad, he's not someone working on building a relationship with some kind of new friend where he needs to gradually get to know them 'before they can have banter'. He's known them all their lives, the point is that he's consistently and repeatedly shown himself to be emotionally tone deaf to them as people, teased them, lacked respect for them, and now they're growing up, he's reaping what he's sowed.

And, what is 'banter' anyway? As you use it, it sounds suspiciously like a way of minimising and dismissing low-level bullying/repeated teasing. 'Oh, he just wants to 'banter' but he's doing it all wrong and you guys are shutting him out.!' Ok. So this is 'banter' -

say I told him about my sons girlfriend, I just know that he wouldnt respect my sons feelings and would mimic and banter and ask questions that make my son feel uncomfortable

he will literally knock and just walk straight in, when I call him on it he always says " I was just hoovering" or "I was just putting his clothes in" there is just this sense of him snooping that my DS just feels he hasn't got his own safe personal space.

Oh yes totally good-natured joshing. Not boundary-pushing, teasing, disrespect at all. It really isn't hard to understand that, especially when your own children are giving you the message loud and clear that they dislike the way you treat them.

He's a dick acting like a dick. She's tried to talk to him and he dismisses her feelings too.

My mum understood the problem, but said she wasn’t prepared to keep secrets from her husband, so I stopped sharing things with dm too

Stupid, stupid, that's on her then.

@Itsallgonewoowoo I think that is what I'm hoping for for him to understand he's missing out on something that should be a major new phase in DS life.

Thank you again all for taking time to post, I'm trying to understand all point of views and not just selecting the easy way out here.

I'm not prepared to spend me life my with my DS saying "don't tell dad" it's simply not fair on them or me.

You are all right my DS is very mature and emotional intelligent beyond his dad, we have a great relationship and the same with my younger DS, I spend time with them talking, understanding their needs and learning about their thoughts and future plans, they are amazing boys.

I'm taking the wait and see approach to this new phase, I'll have to see if my DS does open to his dad eventually and see what DHs reaction is to this, because for me this will be the most telling dynamic, is he so much as has a go at me for not trusting him with the secret I'm at a loss where I go from there.

I'm not a drio feeder as my post was about this topic only trying to understand if it's a DD to dad situation, and not unique to my family. But my overall relationship with DH is very surface level and that's been for years as I've grown and developed as adult and taken on responsibilities and he's just kind of plodded along, but that's a whole other post, but I suspect has a bearing on how my DS see him as well.

Sorry DS to dad.

@Trevsadick you are incredibly insightful form small pieces of information.

My DH does struggle with friendships and he does mimic others, he joins in but never quite looks like he fits in if that makes sense. I observe that but I'm never sure if others notice so much.

I've suspected for years he has some social issues as his Pastimes are all lonely, just things he can do on his own, which he loves but nothing he does is social, he doesn't instigate any social gatherings, he likes his own company.

I've tried over the years to say what about xx group, wouldn't xxx be nice but he always goes back to the alone hobbies and can spend hours and hours on this.

Who knows! Anyway I'm waffling

But in other news the locks are due for delivery tomorrow, my DS is delighted.

And I can hear my DS chatting away ok the phone now, never hear him talk so much to someone so I'm excited for him.

@Deathraystare and that's what I won't do.

It's just so frustrating, as I've shared the news of my DS girlfriend with a very close friend of mine instead who I trust and has distance and no contact with DS as I just wanted to share something nice.

Some part of your DH believes he's another brother not the Dad. It's not banter, it's experienced as teasing by your DS and constant teasing hurts. Your DH is getting the upper hand because its not a level playing field, being teased by a grown up.
Your son doesn't want to have his precious girlfriend situation turned into a massive opportunity to be teased. Your DH may well take this girlfriend as a rejection of from the 'lads' gang he thinks he's in.
Your DH can't wait til the sons are grown up because he thinks he'll have buddies to go to the pub with. Because he's afraid of people. He thinks you grew these two lads to be his pals. They ain't.

FizzyGreenWater get a grip.

Or even read my post. As suggested, I compared him to my son who has asd. Op confirms that he struggles socially. I also clearly said if he doesnt engage theres nothing you can do

In my opinion, the ops comes across as though she criticises him. Which may nor be help.

I never said he was 'poor dh'. I am offering advice, incase op doesn't want to just end her marriage. maybe she does and I wouldn't blame her.

No, I didn't reference banter as the time of shit the dh here is doing.

I specifically, talked about building relationships.

I suspect (and op confirmed) that he struggles to fit in socially, in general. Banter absolutely can be used as an attempt as disguising bullying.

But it also ca be something people do mutually and is genuinely enjoyed by both. BUT, again, as i said.....that only works when both people have a built a relationship so they know each others boundaries, know when the other isnt in the mood.

I said i suspect he has observed that behaviour, trying to mimic it, but not understanding the relationship shop building that comes first, not understanding his ds boundaries.

Op agrees.

Let's be honest. Theres only 2 outcomes here. Either op leaves or, as a family, they try and work on it. If the dh won't there isnt much op can do.

But the result of that, is possibly that as the ds grows up, he visits less and less as to not see his father. Op only having a relationship with ds, if she can see him alone.

So yes, I have tried to give some advice. If you dont like, move along. Op doesn't seem to have been offended.

Funnily enough on tv it is full of parents embarrassing their children (Friday Night Dinner - both boys did not really want to admit to having girlfriends) but in real life it is no laughing matter.

I remember when at school, someone phoned me up and mum who took the call was shouting "It's a boy, it's a boy". Actually it was a girl, one of my friends who had a deep voice. For fuck sake mum, what if it had been a boy? What's the big deal? I once had to date a friend of a friend, because our phone was in the sitting room and if I had tried to wriggle out of it, my mum would have intervened!