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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Either do everything yourself or accept shit standards.

62 replies

Dooglebam · 23/05/2020 16:17

Anyone else in this boat?
I'm exhausted.
Both DH and I WFH but I'M doing all the planning, organising, most of the meal planning, cooking, homeschooling. This is what I'm up against:
-He cooks a meal but forgets to add vegetables and we're served piles of carbohydrates.

  • So I cook, he washes up and he leaves the sink full of scum, sides not wiped down, cooker top covered in food.
-Homeschooling- he does it,but sits on hos phone teaching DCs nothing, I look at their work afterwards and it's wrong, he seemingly doesn't care.
  • We head out for a walk, he wanders around miles infront guessing house prices and comparing garden sizes whilst I deal with the DCs who are squabbling/asking questions/want to talk about how they're finding things.
  • Jobs around the house are unfinished and there are piles of rubbish in the garden that pose as a hazard. I have to write him lists and send him reminders to complete jobs and clear up after himself. He cuts the hedges and leaves the cut offs strewn across the lawn and pavement.

I have talked to him about his shit standards over and over and over again. I have cried, shouted, made myself ill.

So... do I do everything or accept his shit standards?

It's a tough call!!! 👎

OP posts:
Dooglebam · 23/05/2020 22:24

We spoke about this seriously last week and he said he's sick and tired of my demands on him to change. He says he is not willing to change who he is and that he has now come to terms with us splitting up.
He says this as if he's thought all of this through and I know that when I actually do leave him (I'd already seen a solicitor in preparation for this before Christmas so this has been in the pipeline) he will actually be mortified.

OP posts:
LexMitior · 23/05/2020 22:41

Look he gets it. He just thinks you won’t do anything.

Bluntly you need to earn, he needs to leave unless there’s some hope you haven’t put here.

There are lots of men who do this. A lot of them end up divorced. It’s not like they don’t know it’s coming. They just think you (and I mean you) will deal with it.

Often they make better partners to other women afterwards - but you have to decide for you. Basically he’s decided you aren’t worth the effort of doing a good job. That’s different from how you would do it, btw, but I’m sure he knows what a good job is and what is not.

Nanny0gg · 24/05/2020 00:00

Do you own your home?

Why do you think it'll be you leaving?

ThirtyAndASmidgen · 24/05/2020 01:05

He knows exactly what he’s doing, and it sounds like he’s recently admitted it. We need to get away from the idea that these men are somehow clueless or incapable (often while somehow managing to excel in demanding jobs). They are useless at home because they think they can get away with it.

Weenurse · 24/05/2020 01:39

It is only since covid that we have truly shared chores.
Before, we left it to cleaners and me.
Now he is home all the time, I think he gets it, especially with me working full time at the hospital.
Chores are shared between us for our end of the house, the DD’s do their end.
We share cooking and shopping.
We work together on weekends to clean.
When first married, he would deliberately stuff things up so I would take over, like his DM. This did not work as I told him he needed more practice.
It sounds as though you have reached the end of the rope.
Write a very clear list about leaving and leave it on the fridge, cross off things as you achieve them so he can see how close you are to going.
Start with visit lawyer, and cross that off.
See if that makes a difference in his thinking.

Gutterton · 24/05/2020 01:48

It is studied incompetence. It is deliberate.

It’s for 3 reasons:

  1. He is an entitled man child who thinks he is superior and you (women) have to pick up after him.
  1. He does a deliberately shit job in the hope that you don’t ask him again.
  1. He does a deliberately shit job because he is raging with resentment and contempt for you for daring to inflict adult responsibilities on him.

He doesn’t respect you or your family. He thinks he is special. He is not part of the team. You are not a partnership. He is not kind.

He doesn’t behave like this at work - I bet he is Mr Nice Guy and does loads of favours for others or puts on the “helpful husband” act when you have visitors - whilst banging pots and pans aggressively when loading the dishwasher in a temper when no one is there.

The worst bit, and the most important bit though is your health.

His passive aggressive, stubborn, deluded and selfish arrogance - is very resistant and you end up nagging and nagging and getting angry because he won’t work with you.

This will leave you deeply frustrated drained depleted and exhausted. You will become a bitter shouty banshee and end up v depressed. Your DCs don’t need this type of mother and you are not this person.

If you are at this point now it’s because you have tried too hard for too long. Often women like you were raised to believe that you have to give so much for very little return. If you separate your life will be infinitely better you will be able to provide and calm and peaceful home for your DCs where kindness and respect are how you all behave. That’s not what they have now - it will get worse and your DCs will behave aggressively and disrespectfully. I have lived this - ending it was the best decision.

Have a read of the link below:

www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

blueshoes · 24/05/2020 01:51

OP, if divorce is on the cards, then keep them close to your chest and get your ducks in a row financially first. Good that you have seen the solicitor. Is he the main earner. Is the house in your name?

I think you have to switch on Plan D fully but not activate until after lockdown and when you are ready.

He sounds like a complete dick to botch up tasks as if to force your hand at divorcing him. One wonders whether he did it to invite divorce.

Well anyway, you will be much happier without him. His loss. You and dcs will be happier without him to poison the well.

RantyAnty · 24/05/2020 07:17

Like pp said, it's deliberate to get you to do it all.
It's selfish and childish but plenty of men seem to do this. They will push it pretty damn far too until you give in. Equality is right out the door! They believe it's your job and you should do it.

I've been a manager for years and I would treat him like an employee in a way. Start checking his work :)
For example, him not wiping the sink and stove which takes all of a minute to do, you already know he's going to leave it so right as he's finished the washing up, walk over and look at the stove and sink and say the stove and sinks needs wiped and then walk away.

Say these things matter of fact with no emotion.
Same if he cooks and leaves something out. Walk over and say, looks like this recipe need x, it's in the freezer, pantry or whatever.

Yes, this is fucking tedious and annoying to have to go after a grown man to do this but doing this every damn time until he knows you aren't going to give in, works. I mean what's he going to do or say when you mention these things right near the moment he deliberately is going to fuck it up? and you say it in such a neutral tone.

Give it a try if you want to. Be warned, it will take awhile as men have perfected their deliberate incompetence since childhood.

Anyway, if you want to divorce him, go for it as being married to someone so sexist and disrespectful is shite.

blueshoes · 24/05/2020 20:30

RantyAnty the employee analogy is interesting but will it work for a reluctant spouse. It pre-supposes the employee will improve or wants to improve because the ultimate sanction is performance management and then dismissal.

A spouse can just continue to fuck up.

I guess this will make it clear to OP that he is spoiling to be sacked as a spouse.

Vretz · 24/05/2020 20:48

Men don't stand a chance if we are saying being useless at something is deliberate incompetence.

It's been suggested you check his 'work', leave him, nag him and he's told you to stop. I actually think you should leave, as you sound like you are trying to control him.

Thighdentitycrisis · 24/05/2020 21:10

If I was in this kind of dynamic with a partner I would question why and be looking at myself

changeitupagain · 24/05/2020 22:03

@FATEdestiny is right.

Some people are more anal and do have higher standards than others. They aren't morally superior for this and the rest of us shouldn't be held to their standards.

If I cooked and my DP complained there was no veg in it I'd tell him I personally didn't think veg went with this meal, that I had planned and prepared, and if he wanted veg he could get it himself. And I'd expect him to do the same to me. This goes for any part of a meal, if you had no part in putting it together then you don't get to complain about what something else has cooked for you.

The cooker top still having food on and the side not being wiped down aren't ok as these are actively unhygienic and pose a risk to whoever uses them next. However the sink being full of 'scum' makes no difference to its function so if it bugs you and not him then you really have to suck it up and deal with it.

Homeschooling, you may just have a different approach to it. He may believe the school have provided everything needed and he's only there to supervise whilst the DC get on with it whether you may believe you actively need to teach. Neither are wrong and you just have to talk about it and come to an agreement. But he shouldn't have to do more than he believes is actually necessary or even right just to appease you.

On the walks maybe he believes you pander to the kids too much and actually facilitate their squabbling. Some people believe than on walks the parents set the pace and it is the DC's place to follow behind and keep up with them. Again neither of you are right or wrong but you have to come to an agreement on what level of squabbling you will mediator and at what point you will tell them both to stop being ridiculous and get on with the walk.

This can be applied to so many situations. My DP has a real thing about having a 'made' bed to get into at night whether I really don't see the point and it makes no odds to me. As it is his 'thing' he takes the responsibility for making the bed because if he wants it that way it's his place to put himself out to make it happen. I have a funny thing about stuff being laid out on the dresser properly because I think it looks untidy otherwise, however this is my 'thing' and I wouldn't expect him to live by my standard of this so if he leaves it how I don't like it I just change it. It makes no odds to him but bugs me otherwise.

He believes the carpet needs hoovering twice a week whether I only hoover if the floor looks like it needs to be. I refuse to be held to his standard of floor cleanliness when it looks absolutely fine to me so if he wants the floor hoovering one wednesdays and sundays it's on him to do it. I'll hoover if I look at the floor and think it needs it.

You need to talk to him and accept that you may possibly be being unreasonable about some things. If he believes he is home schooling the DC you can't expect him to change how he's doing it just because it's not how you want it done, that's controlling.

You both need to have a chat about personal expectations vs necessary cleaning and tidying and work it out together based on your own standards.

taraRoo · 24/05/2020 22:06

Sorry but you are being a bit unreasonable. He does do the stuff. You need to accept that he might not do it how you would. Definitely worse crimes than leaving soap scum in the sink.

Dooglebam · 24/05/2020 23:05

I've no issues with soap scum.
I'd welcome soap scum.
I'm talking food scum.
And food scum on "clean" dishes which DH had put away in the cupboard.

Although tbf, I'm definitely too anal 🙄

OP posts:
Gutterton · 24/05/2020 23:28

Trust your own feelings and gut Dooglebam - you have had a wide range of opinions from anonymous people in response to a small fraction of your lives together.

Read again what resonates with you and ignore the rest if it doesn’t fit. Don’t get distracted or defensive. The only relevant information / opinion / advice to consider or discuss further on the thread is what clicks with you.

Dooglebam · 25/05/2020 10:03

@Gutterton everything you have said to me is what resonates the most.

You get it.

What happened after you ended it? How is your life now?

OP posts:
Khadernawazkhan · 25/05/2020 11:39

What a lazy croc of... I hope he feels ashamed at such low standards. Its selfish beyond belief and demeaning to you, your children and himself.

Ask him to listen to the Jocko Willinck podcast - that should give him a shot in the arm and a great insight about how real men behave and set high standards in everything they do.

Cactusmum · 25/05/2020 14:14

My husband does nothing around the house, im a stay at home mum so he works and I do all cleaning, cooking, yard work, decorating, maintenance, dealing with tradies etc and 98% of the parenting. After 19 years of trying to change this, get angry, talk quietly, beg, pester nothing changes and im happier in general if i dont even try anymore. Hes a child and im basically his mother. On the plus side, he never complains about anything, I basically have complete autonomy with how to run the house, ive gotten used to it. I can do what i like when i like so thats got to be good right?

billy1966 · 25/05/2020 14:36

OP,

Some of us get it.

Your with a deliberately lazy, selfish twat.

@Gutterton

Word for word.

Don't waste your life with a lazy twat.

There are plenty of good men out there, who pull their weight.

Until you meet one, sooooooooo much better to be alone.

Flowers
Gutterton · 26/05/2020 13:42

Doodlebam after he left my depression and stress evaporated over night.

There was an additional level going on which was around disciplining and parenting the children which was totally divisive. He would covertly sabotage every routine, boundary etc I put in place - so the house was out of control - not just on a practical level but also on the more important emotional and behavioural stuff. He was seen as Disney dad - and I was the exhausted enforcer - I had to be more dysfunctionally authoritative than I wanted to be just to stop us all going over board in the boat he was rocking.

When he left this dynamic dissipated - I had so much more clarity and emotional and physical energy because I was not being exhausted by anger and frustration which I was able to redirect to create a calm and peaceful home where everyone treats each other with kindness and respect and sees each other as part of a team.

I can totally relate to your DH goading you telling you he won’t change for you and is prepared to separate - and you knowing this isn’t what he wants - what he wants is you to capitulate and submit. And he believes you will - because you always have (to date). It’s a blinking competition.

In the end I got my DH to leave not just because of the total drudge I turned into with respect to doing everything (although I should have left years before just for this) - but it was the impact on the DCs - his ridiculous lazy indulgent divisive parenting was totally toxic for them and I knew they deserved better.

Even though I had got him to leave for short periods before - he was absolutely shell shocked when it happened. It just proved again how disrespectful and dismissive he was of me - totally contemptuous behaviours like a fuck you teenager.

It was v v hard for me to articulate what was going on and I sounded nuts to the outside world that we were getting divorced because he was a soft dad and sloppy around the house. He was always seen as Mr Nice Guy and by then I would have been seen as uptight and seething. But it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks - it matters how you feel day in day out.

He saw how much better the home ran without him emotionally and this really shocked him. One of his classic lines was that I wouldn’t be able to cope on my own and that our oldest son would choose to go and live with him. Neither of these things happened. I had dropped the vocal nagging rage stuff months before so there was no escalating fights. I resisted his goading and was just v distant just “customer services” polite. I learnt all this on here.

6 months later we had couples therapy and then our own individual therapy which had a massive positive impact and we put the family back together. We needed the time and space of a separation to emotionally detox for the therapy to work (we had loads before whilst still married) - he needed the cold light of day to fully engage. He is a very different, much better, emotionally intimate and supportive partner now. Our relationship is on a much deeper level and total equal footing. I have had many moments when I feel bitter about the past and what he put us all through. But he is deeply sorry and has moved mountains to atone and had never ever behaved like this since.

His background as the golden child of an engulfing controlling narc mother and an alcoholic dad explained (but didn’t excuse) his behaviours. He had the entitlement and expectation that he didn’t have to “adult” - which was one level of it - but also he was subconsciously taking his contempt and resentment that he had for his controlling mother directly out on me. It was covert abuse which caused me incredible damage and distress and he is fully aware of this and is now v actively supportive of me.

Gutterton · 26/05/2020 13:59

Oh and when we separated I was 100% sure we would divorce - that was the intention. It was a surprise that we rebuilt our marriage. I was cautious for many years.

billy1966 · 26/05/2020 15:58

That's some story @Gutterton.

You are some woman to have forgiven your husband.
I couldn't see myself doing it.
He's a very lucky man.
Flowers

blueshoes · 27/05/2020 23:52

Gutterton powerful posts Flowers

Dooglebam · 29/05/2020 05:45

Wow. @Gutterton.
I got to the end of your posts and was astounded by the outcome. It's amazing that he managed to turn all of this around. An incredible story.
Also, as I was reading, I could relate to so much of your story.
DH sabotages my routines too. Today we have planned an early morning bike ride; he should have helped me make a packed breakfast last night, instead he sat in the garden scoffing cake. He will also fail to get up this morning and have me remind him to get up over and over again. This is even though he wants to do it and was partly his idea. I even refuse to go on holiday. Every time, he sabotages the planning, the packing, the organisation. All of it. He's the hardest child to organise out of all of them.

Incredibly, he also has a narc, controlling mother. Both parents have always done everything for him.and he too has never had to "adult." He is also the golden child whilst his mother blames his younger brother for coming along and tipping their lives upside down. She thinks he's wonderful and ig would appear he's never been criticised his whole life. His father will say "no matter how little effort he makes, he always comes through in the end." A ridiculous lesson to have taught him as he now thinks he doesn't need to make much effort with anything other than what people in the outside world can see. Everyone thinks he's lovely. He will do anything to help people other than me.

I am also a ragey and dysfunctionally controlling mother trying to keep the boat afloat. We're not at a point of huge chaos, but he makes everything harder and I find myself doing the daily drudge-much of the domestic work whilst he plays with the children being "a fabulous father" as MIL quite often refers to him. I am seething with resentment and anger and I feel very hurt.

He is extremely entitled and disrespectful. I've reduced my working hours twice because the load of the home was too much to manage for me. People say he is laidback,but actually this is pure apathy on his part. We have tried relationship counselling before but he showed up completely differently. The counsellor grew to feel sorry for him after seemingly empathising with me at first and began to conclude that I needed to accept my role as the primary carer/cleaner/cook etc in the home. I felt like he had won over yet another outsider, whilst I continued to madly tread water.

I've been having private counselling ever since. 4 years! I don't see how I can ever not go to counselling for as long as I'm with DH.

DH also tells me I won't cope on my own should we separate and uses my requests for him to actively parent as evidence that I won't cope without him. He has this hyper energy around the kids, which makes them hyper, which makes me feel unable to cope and I'm pinning all hopes on them calming down after he leaves and me being able to cope better. He is loud and messy which in turn makes them the same. He also seems to compete for my attention which is so draining. He wants to talk at me constantly about trivial unimportant rubbish but wont talk to me about our finances or plans for the future. At the very least, we need to detox and he needs to move out for a while, but I know he won't.

OP posts:
REignbow · 29/05/2020 06:23

He won’t because he’s entitled, arrogant and selfish. IMO, move out and set yourself free. He won’t want the DC, that will mean he’ll have to actually parent.