Damaging grandparent? What are your thoughts? What to do?

[mygirlshavechangedmyworld]

I am a mum of two girls. They are beautiful beings and I still pinch myself I get to be their Mum. (I've had miscarriages, ectopics, IVF, it was a journey but that's another story!). Needlesstosay, I work hard to be the best mother I can be. I do this by reading, scouring Mumsnet, watching others I admire and following my instinct. I've never posted on Mumsnet myself before but I'm a bit lost and seeking some advice please.

I was raised by my mother who does, in her own way, love me. That said, she has never been nice to me.

My childhood was without connection, we didn't talk, we didn't hug, she was emotionally unavailable, constantly distracted by the 'men' in her life, three long term relationships, all with drink problems. I was terribly neglected and emotionally abused. I was screamed at daily, physically attacked, put down, name called, and ignored, even in my most desperate of moments. I used to take myself off to CAMS as they were the only people I could talk to. She was cruel to the bone. I left at 14 to live with another family member, with little confidence or self esteem. The years 14-18 went past in a shambolic blur of self destruction. At 18 I decided that I would make something of my life and achieve.

I became very successful in work, I married (10+ years in now) and I live a very happy calm, stable life. I have become something of a show pony to my mother now, the source of much pride I am told by others constantly. However, the pattern behind closed doors and on the phone remains. I am her emotional metaphorical punch bag, most of the time.

What is sad and difficult is that she's unaware by in large of her toxicity. She's fragile and emotionally unstable, when low she hates herself but she rarely hates herself. Mostly she is righteous, aggressive, bullying, controlling, forceful and without sympathy or empathy. She is consumed by wanting to dissect the past, to discuss all the problems in others that they can not see, normally mine. She's always trying to diagnose everyone, from my sister and I, to friends, family, famous people. She's like a sudo psychologist.

As a grandmother, she is having her chance to fix history, to an extent. She loves them, hugs them and is warm towards them when she sees them but she finds it hard work and consequently only has them to visit once every couple of months (she lives 30 minutes away) for a day or night. She comes over to us a couple of times a month but it normally always ends in disaster. She does babysit on request sometimes, which we pay for, its expected and needed so we don't resent it.

She is so very easily upset that I usually say something, unwittingly that results in her storming out of the house, in front of the children, often without saying goodbye. Always with hurls of abuse and foul language. If I ask her to leave because her behaviour is poor, she rages further about how I'm 'throwing her out'. She has very limited ability to manage her emotions.

I find her sometimes hard on the children where behaviour and manners are concerned, they're both between 4 & 8. I'm all for raising well rounded children but her inability to see her own dominating and forceful behaviour causes discomfort for me. People are not allowed to discover who they are. They are told who they are. By age five my eldest had been named manipulative, game playing, bullying etc. It makes me die inside. My mum thinks they're the sweetest really but she uses words as weapons to great effect in conflict or as punishment. Her words caused me untold damage so needlesstosay, I'm keen to protect my children from name calling. I always feel guilty for allowing her to upset my children but I suspect most grandparents parent their grandchildren to some extent? By in large she is loving towards them and they her, though my eldest can be wary occasionally. Though my in-laws are loving and would never dream of ignoring our parenting choices (aka, please cut up grapes) or discipling our children (aka, please don't tell my 7 year old she is manipulative).

My grandmother told me in recent years that my mother struggled to accept me as a child because I reminder her of my father. She had me at 20, they were young and dysfunctional, she wanted out, her didn't, it got messy. She cut off all contact, as did he and I grew up without him in my life. (Happily we found one another in my early 20's and my daughters are growing up knowing who he is).

Despite everything, my mother has always had my back, I've always had a roof over my head and she is very dutiful in terms of being there in a crisis, hospital stays etc, but the day to day is hard. The truth is, I get nothing from my relationship with her. Worse still, she brings distress and conflict into my home, frequently.

It's my believe that my Mum has undiagnosed personality disorder, mood disorder, bipolar or other. She has always refused to seek help. It is a belief shared by the wider family. Her siblings too have mental health issues, one of whom is currently in a psychiatric hospital. This is why I've been able to forgive her flaws and keep on trying.

I have long since tried to manage the relationship to ensure the girls are raised with her in their life, whilst also protecting them from her wrath, it is a hard path to navigate. There is no question that she will cause them a level of psychological upset but so too would cutting her out of our lives. There lies the issue.

What do I do?

As things currently stand, she's cut me out of her life. Yesterday. For a comment that upset her. Nothing new. It'll last a week or so and then she carries on like nothing has happened. Allowing this to just carry on year after year just leaves us all open to more hurt, trauma and long lasting damage. But, are my children really at risk? Would I be walking away for me or them if I do? It feels like its what I want right now but I'd feel awful guilt no doubt.

Any advice from people who've been in same boat or similar would be most welcome.

Thanks for taking the time to listen. What a waffle! Apologies!

Stay safe and well. Much gratitude in advance!

Your children don't need her. They won't miss her.
Read what you wrote in your first couple of paragraphs. You should keep your precious kids away from someone like this. But it's not easy, I know.

@DeRigueurMortis - Great viewpoint, thank you. I think I'm realising that I've failed to maintain the boundaries I've decided to set over the years, boundaries very similar to as you've mentioned, it makes total sense. Perhaps I have failed and that this realisation gives me the opportunity to try again. I feel very differently today. Things are going to change.

@Lolapusht

So kind of you to put in so much time. You are right I know. There is good there too. But I guess that's irrelevant in the face of the bad. Feels an unfair trial but the point I guess is that the good doesn't undo the bad so its irrelevant.

SHe ruined your childhood, please don't let her have the same affect on your own precious children.

I am not remotely thinking about what is best for my mother. My priority, my only priority, is to make the best decisions for my babies. It's just not been an easy decision to know what to do because in fairness, this is big stuff. She is not the person she was when I was a child and does bring my children joy, but the verbal form is still there on a bad day and its the unpredictability of it that makes it so hard. Her negative behaviour is 99% of the time directed at me, genuinely and I guess I doubted myself as to whether reducing contact was fair on the children in the face of that fact. However, as we all know, even my children being witness to her moods and in very rare moments baring the brunt of her verbal wrath, is too much and these comments have given me much needed clarity and strength. Thank you.

Your mother's decision to deny you a grandfather might be for a very different reason than any decision you make to step away from her. It depends on why she decided that. She's far from stable or sensible. Her father could be part of the reason why, or he could be something of an innocent victim here.

But it's clear that it's a lot more than 1% of the time that she's nasty

She is so very easily upset that I usually say something, unwittingly that results in her storming out of the house, in front of the children, often without saying goodbye. Always with hurls of abuse and foul language

if you 'usually' say something that leads to this behaviour, it's not good grandparenting. It reminds me of my bio. mother who was diagnosed severe BPD. She definitely had love within her, but no ability to control her emotions or behaviour and the effects on the children she brought up were profound.

There's a phrase, "detach with love". If you choose to step away, it's the one that seems to apply. Your children will ask why; you'll need to plan what to say. Something along the lines of her screaming and shouting and bad langauge is not acceptable behaviour, and when she can control herself and apologise then you can see her again, but until then not. Or, if she can control herself in public, meet only in cafés etc (when possible).

From the sound of it though, she might very well spectacularly explode at the idea of being shut out of your/their lives. There are ways to handle this, but you'll need to think and plan ahead and be prepared for a difficult ride for a while.

most of all, I'd say practise staying calm when dealing with her, calm and firm. It's a good model for your chldren and when dealing with an emotionally volatile person like this who's incapable of controlling themselves, calmness and firm boundaries are the only way an even half-way healthy relationship is possible. But, your children should not be walking on eggshells around her.

There’s a whole world of difference between a father and a grandma.
Your mother seems to be making the mistake with your dc as she did with you. By all means keep seeing her but in small doses and on your terms. Don’t let your dc end up being damaged by their grandma

You describe her verbally eviscerating your DDs, calling them manipulative etc., to their faces, stalking out of the house, screaming abuse.... but then you describe this as your mum "parenting" and "disciplining" them?? Sorry that's not either of those things? That's abusing them...

I'm sorry your mum is unwell but I wouldn't put up with any of that. I'd be very frank with the kids that Gran is sick and doesnt know how to behave so we deal with her by limiting contact, no you never say sorry to her for calling you names, no her moods arent your responsibility ever, etc. See her once or twice a year if shes lucky.

When she abuses them like that you tell her to get fucked and remove the children from her presence/kick her out. Police if needed.

Again maybe she doesn't mean it, but you arent helping by ignoring how vile she is to your small dds.

This is horrific. Please walk away from her, permanently, for your girls AND you. You've really written your own answer, but doubting it, hoping to salvage something from this train wreck. On the one hand you say she is 'only' a complete nightmare 1% of the time. On the other hand, you say she blows up every single time she is with you and the girls, storming out, calling one manipulative. That should be the end of it right there, with that labelling of your daughter, it's beyond cruel. You also, correctly, I think, say she likely has a personality disorder. Christ, I recognise so much of this from my own mother, the constantly 'diagnosing' other people, constantly analysing every damn thing, while never addressing her own horrific behaviour. I'm pretty sure my mother was schizo-affective disordered, it was horrendous and never ending until contact ended when I was in my late 20s. Best thing ever, finally - peace!! You are not denying your children anything by getting her out of your lives, you are protecting them. I promise you this, 100%. I never had children, but if I had, my mother would never have even known of their existence. And my sibling who did - she never knew of them either, thank god, we were ALL better off for not having her in our lives. I promise that when you cut her out, you will feel so much relief. Yes, there will be times you feel guilty and obligated, but fuck that. This is your life and your children's lives we are talking about. No 7 year old should be wary of their grandparent, that's beyond the pale. Put them and you first, not your very sadly dysfunctional mother. She had her chance, it's not working, it never will, she'll never be the grandma or mother you are so desperate for. Look after yourself (has anyone ever really looked after you?) and your girls. Lastly, I recommend the Stately Homes threads on here, I'm sure you will find that helpful and welcoming. All the best.

@SeaEagleFeather @rvby @Soontobe60 Thanks all. I don't disagree with any of it. Trust me, I don't ignore any of it. I just need to do more and needed some help to validate my thinking. You've all helped. Thank you.

@PurpleTrilby - You've hit the nail on head. I do know the answer but yes, doubted myself. Needed the group validation. She doesn't blow up every time, I perhaps didn't frame that right or fairly but she is unpredictable. Anyway, its irrelevant now. Thank you, so much.

So you went through that as a child but you let her babysit your kids? I wouldn’t.

I’d also tell her that if she can’t change her behaviour then she’s out. I have a toxic mother in law and I don’t put up with it. She has been horrible to me since my husband died and I won’t stand for it. Like your mother though it’s never her fault. Your kids are also shoe ponies she makes the effort when she wants too, to look
Like she’s the doting grandparent.

Hi @Widowodiw. Thanks for the response. I think its VERY important I point out again that she is not the same person she was when I was a child. For starters, she's been in recovery for 10+ years now. She is much happier. Much more able to control her emotions than she once was. She doesn't live with the volatility of an alcoholic. She is fun and loving to my children. I would not dream of allowing my children be with her if she was the women she was when I was a child. The fact that she has tried so hard does matter to me, as does the positives in her that she brings to my children. However, she does still revert to the same patterns of communication with me which then impact my family by proxi, she does still struggle to handle her emotions in a mature way generally, and she does still hold some rather narcissistic and controlling traits. All things that I do take very seriously in terms of their impact on my children and hence why I am here to seek a little more reassurance that my thought of making more of a detachment is one that seems wholly considered, proportionate and in the best interests of my children as well as me. Thanks for your strength of view, you are right. Thank you again.

the day to day is hard. The truth is, I get nothing from my relationship with her. Worse still, she brings distress and conflict into my home, frequently

If she was a random woman, bringing distress and conflict into your family, never mind bad language and abuse INTO YOUR HOME, you wouldn't be asking here, you'd just block her and move on.

Your dds do deserve a healthy relationship with her, but SHE cannot provide this to them. Please protect them from growing up with her repeating the pattern she inflicted upon you. Age appropriate language of course 'granny can't behave herself when she's here so we're not seeing her for a while' kinda thing.

It's hard OP, you've already had therapy to detach emotionally from her. But your children have not - they are beautiful, absorbant, wonderful creatures who are learning from the world around them and will be observing your mum's behaviour, normalising it and are being eaten away by it already. You say she behaves like this in front of them, leaves without saying goodbye - her behaviour is already damaging them.

Your mother sounds like a lot like mine. I'm sorry. You're not the crazy one.

What does your husband think about what you're allowing into both your children's lives?
I don't mean to be harsh, but I couldn't see the forest for the trees and my husband had to set a boundary that I was unable to.
The last time that my mother cut me out of her life, I held her to it. Once I got some space, I could see more clearly. I am so glad that she wasn't around to manipulate my daughter during her rough teen years!

My DM is similar. Fortunately as she moved far away to be with (yet another) man, her contact with DD is easier to manage. She fully expected me to move too, which of course I didn't. So she has never babysat or had my DD on her own. Which is how it has to be. How I prefer it.

The older she gets the worse she gets. Without me having to say anything, my DD has made up her own mind that doesn't like her. DD often says she can't believe she is my mum as we are so different. DD doesn't realise but that is the greatest compliment to me!

My point in telling you this is that your children don't need a grandmother and aren't missing out on anything by not having your mother in their life.

Am I sad when I hear what great relationships other people have with their mum? Yes, of course. Lockdown has raised lots of feelings again. So many people desperate to see their mum. I don't feel that way at all.

You know she's not a good person, regardless of whether it's an illness or not, the outcome is the same. Your children need and deserve to be protected.

You have been handed a gift of her stomping off. Let her go, but this time don't allow things to 'return to normal'. Keep her at arms length. Don't feel bad about it. Your DDs will thank you in the long run.

It is not your fault your mother is like this and you did not make her that way. Do not let the next generation here be damaged. You have a choice re your mother, your children do not.

Toxic parents more often than not become toxic as grandparents too.
If she is toxic and otherwise too damn difficult for you to deal with, its the same deal for your children too. At the very least your children need emotionally healthy grandparents as role models, clearly your mother here does not fit the bill. Any person, let alone a relative with narcissistic and controlling tendencies (and controlling behaviour is abusive behaviour) should not be around either you or your children.

Read about FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) because I think this is still an issue with regards to yourself.

You would not tolerate this from a friend, your mother is no different.

Don't let her damage your children. I had a mother s bad at yours but in different ways. I kept saying I wanted my kids to develop their own decision and relationship. Until a day I caught her talking to my eldest like she used to with me. My heart dropped.how could I expose them to what I had been through. Contact has been v low since. Maybe twice a year at events. She never even asks about them. Only interested in looking like a doting grandmother in front of people to impress

OP my mother was/is the same .
The constant up and downs, ignoring me for weeks/months on end and then pretending nothing had happened finally took its toll on me 3 years ago when I moved me and my kids away and have had no contact ever since .
I spent my whole life tiptoeing around her moods and trying to placate her .
I have grieved the mother I wish I had .
I also think mental health issues that she has chosen to ignore are the root of many of the problems . But it’s not my job to carry that or to fix her . I tried - but I can’t do it .
My children are much calmer now - but I did feel guilty for removing the only grandparent they had from their lives too. It’s a tough choice .

My mum has been very much the same. Although jealous of my relationship with my dad. Refused a divorce from him and took his estate when he passed away many years later.
Ive since gone no contact with her.
It stops with me.

Don't leave her alone with your kids.

You could have described my mother there I have long suspected bipolar and some form of narcissistic personality disorder. I'm so sorry you've been through this you sound like such a good mother and an all round good person.
You must break this cycle ! Your girls need to know this is not normal behaviour and just because someone is 'family' they don't have to put up with this.
You need to set up strong boundaries with her and I would personally not allow the girls any free time with her unsupervised ( you don't know how she is behaving when you aren't around) as soon as she starts displaying toxic behavior remove yourself and the children from the situation and afterwards make sure you debrief with your girls and explain this is not how we behave etc. Go grey rock as mentioned above share limited details of your life so that your mother can't feed off of it. Shut down the name calling immediately it's okay to say 'okay I'm ending this conversation now because you are name calling and thats not acceptable to me 'for example ! It's really scary to do this at first but you can do it !
You can limit phone calls and visits to a certain length of time if you feel she is not able to control her emotions for too long a period ( you don't have to make her aware of this)
Finally mental health is NOT an excuse to abuse your family ! There is so much help available to people if she chooses not to accept it then that is on her and other people should not have to suffer for that.

You don't owe your mother anything and your girls are number one !

She will turn on the children one day. That's who she is.

My mother escalated when she realised I was quietly cutting her out of my life. Meh. I grey rocked the hell out of it. I am sure there was much more raging than I saw - I didn't witness much because I kept her at arms length.

My children know that grandma has some serious mental health problems that cause her to make bad decisions and hurt others, especially those she should love most. She does not want to change and sadly at her age she is unlikely to change. It makes me sad. There is nothing I can do except protect us from her behaviour. She is an adult who is allowed to make her own choices. I don't have to accept those choices affecting my life though now I am an adult.

The children understand it. They rarely see her or talk to her. Same for me.

Mine are teens now. There are many times when they want something that seems fun, with people who seem fun doing stuff they are sure they can handle. Me and their dad have to be the bad guys sometimes who say no, you are not going to that party, to that boy's house, you will do your homework, you will tidy that mess up right now not later whatever. They sometimes think we are ridiculous, they cry and complain and rage. We are the parents. Tough for all of us but that stuff has to happen sometimes when you raise children and you the parent have to suck up being the bad guy for a little while.

Wow all, more comments that are just so impactful. Thank you. I really didn't expect this. It makes me realise how hard I still find it. For example; I have already initiated the 'calm, detaching with love' plan, I leave phone calls when she starts being unkind, I calmly tell her to leave if she is throwing her weight around, I pull her up if she over steps mark but what I haven't done is make her stick to her word, protect us from the unpredictability or stick to my own boundaries of not accepting her stuff any more.
The guilt someone talked of above is very real, she has largely cut herself off from friends, has a low income and struggles with the highs and lows of life. I have for a long time, probably since I was a child, looked after her. A little practically but largely emotionally. She has no hobbies and works occasionally. A large part of her existence is based on my family. Or so it feels. I have emotionally detached from her in that I no longer need her or gain anything from the relationship, however I haven't detached perhaps in that, I feel guilty for not being there for her, probably because I believe she is ill. I feel she is vulnerable. It's funny, no one would ever use that word to describe her. On the outside she's a total terrier but inside I know how damaged she is. Or is that her power, am I still not seeing her for who she is? Maybe I'm being utterly weak and forgiving of her, as I have always been. Even now, I am unbothered by her verbal attacks on me, I am so used to them and now I am happy and stable and surrounded by loving friends and collages, they have no power over me. But I wrote this post because seeing her occasional form behaviour play out in front of or affecting my husband and children is a VERY different matter. Though I can see that is shouldn't be. However, as sad as it is for my mother, how sad that she can't see what could be if she sought help, my children are my priority and I have worked SO recover from my childhood that I must not allow seeds of it to continue. I can see that. It is crystal clear now.
With regards to my husband, he is very grounded, he comes from a stable, loving family. He's a fantastic man, husband and father. He is kind and it is his kindness and lack of confrontational bone in his body that means he is unable to provide me with much steer. He will support what I do but is unable to take the reins. He hates the conflict she brings into the family, he hates the fact that she will ring and message him to ignore me or to track me down, he hates the fact that she is so unkind to me and he is concerned about the impact she may have on the children. However, he also grapples with the fact that things can be fine. She can be fun, loving and light. Things can sometimes feel normal so cutting her out feels extreme, though of course, I know that he is not aware, first hand, of the damage that words, conflict etc can have. He knows it from having to support me in the mop up of my childhood but he hasn't lived is so doesn't see the warning signs as acutely as me. He is also aware that I am a trigger for her, something in me pains her, he thinks its jealously at my life, I think it may have something to do with her lost youth (she's often commented on how she lost her youth due to having me). Who knows. The point is that we accept she has comes a long long way from her behaviour of years past and that the issues are largely related to me and me alone (and other members of the family she has issues with) but we also accept, more than ever before (largely thanks to you all) that her unpredictability still allows history of old to repeat in the future and it must not. Someone here wrote that my children can not grow up thinking it is acceptable to behave or accept the behaviour she exhibits and that is just so true. You are all right, I can only assume I am still weaker to her power than I thought. My babies come first, always and sadly, her positive does not take away the negative and any negative is unacceptable. Things will change. Thanks again all.

her positive does not take away the negative and any negative is unacceptable

I think you have got it in a nutshell. Or at least her type of negative is unacceptable because it is so horrific.

Best of luck in keeping your children away from her.