DM’s hoarding is affecting our relationship

[starrysimon]

My DM has always had a problem with hoarding but I never realised how bad it was until I became an adult. She always had wardrobes and suitcases full of clothes that no longer fit her or she’d never wear again. She would constantly buy new clothes, toiletries, accessories etc even though she already had an abundance of them all. She would also ground me as a child/teenager for throwing my own things away. She still is overbearing about me tipping things even though I’m in my own home. Her favourite phrase is ‘it’ll come in’. So infuriating

When she moved in with her new partner to a bigger house it just got worse. It’s a new build Terrace with a large garage, built in wardrobes, loft and cupboard storage space. The garage is completely full of her things, as is the loft, built in wardrobe and all other storage space. She even has a large double wardrobe in the room she made DD’s bedroom. Her partner has small set of drawers to store his clothes. The garage is full of DM’s furniture, my furniture that she refused to get rid of, my things from childhood and various bits she kept (stole) from when DD was a baby.

Her personal hoarding doesn’t affect me anymore as I don’t live around it but she’s been annoying me for years stealing my DD’s things when she has had her over at her house. For example, she has somehow managed to gain 70% of my DD’s baby clothes from 0-12 months and has refused to return them until now that I am pregnant again. DD would only stay over once a week maximum so it’s insane how much she managed to squirrel away. This wasn’t a demand of mine, DM wanted DD overnight so I let her as I’m the only child and DD the only grandchild. She still hasn’t actually given the clothes back. She has apparently packed them up ready but I doubt I’ll ever see them. It got so bad that I’d have to send DD in her worst clothes in order not to lose the nice expensive ones.

It’s been happening again recently and is just getting beyond a joke now. I’ve tried asking politely but it doesn’t work. I don’t want to have to get stern with her just to get my DD’s stuff back. As well as clothes, she’s also stolen a lot of DD’s toys and books so that her house looks like a playgroup and mine is practically empty. DD is 4yo so I spend a lot of money on clothes from H&M, Debenhams etc. that don’t look babyish as I think she’s outgrown all the unicorn and kitten garish clothing you get at other places. Plus it’s just how I want to dress her. DM actually physically stole them from my home when I wasn’t paying attention. When confronted her response was ‘well it’s so she’s got something nice to wear at mine’. She also constantly send’s DD home after her few hours there in awfully tatty, secondhand clothes when I sent her in nice new ones. She stole baby bibs and muslins that my DGM bought me and gifted to me at my home. DM sniped the gift bag when I wasn’t paying attention.

She also constantly goes on about and sends me photos of what she’s bought for the new baby but never actually gives it to me. I haven’t asked for any of it and don’t expect it but it’s going to be going to waste as I will not be letting the same happen with DD2. She will not be having contact with her unless I’m present so she cannot steak things. She bought us a new pram system out of the blue which was very thoughtful of her but she’s only given us the carrycot bit and nothing else. She’s keeping the car seat because ‘she will be getting us from the hospital so we don’t need it’. This hasn’t even been agreed. Also keeping the rest as we ‘can’t possibly have the space’. We will probably never see the rest of the system which I’m okay with as we didn’t ask for it and am still grateful that she bought it in the first place.

I think it must be a psychological issue as it’s obviously not right to be stealing from your own child and grandchildren. Admittedly she doesn’t really have much of a life, although it is a nice one full of luxuries she doesn’t have any friends. Spends all her time at work or at home with family. I don’t remember the last time she went out and had some fun for herself.

How do I fix this without having to forcibly remove my things from her home and putting locks on doors/CCTV in my own home? I’d rather it stay amicable and not get out of hand. She definitely needs help but I’m not sure she would accept it. Her partner is being incredibly irresponsible by enabling her also!

What's her partner's attitude to this? Can he slip you a key so that you can get one cut and come back when she's not there?

I don't think you can do anything amicably. Personally I'd find some very lagrely built male friend, turn up on her doorstep with him, and demand that she open the garage door and let you take YOUR belongings out of the garage. You'd be within your rights to threaten to call the police if she doesn't comply.

Your stuff comes back to you or you will be calling the police its stolen property

Dont bother talking to her again until she behaves like a normal person and mean it

She not buying stuff for you or your dc, she's buying these things because you having another dc is an excuse to buy and steal

There is no point putting up cctv as you already know she steals and she won't give it back anyway.

Other than letting your dc have no contact with your dc I don't know what to suggest. Also I'd not be having her in the house either if she's started to take things from there too

It's a mental health issue, as lots of people have said, but it's not an easily solvable one. Even if someone wants help - which it doesn't sound as if your mother does - long term therapy only helps a quarter of hoarders maximum.

So all you can do is draw boundaries and manage what you do in the future. You are not going to change her or what she does, just don't let her get anything else.

I would issue an ultimatum, but I would be prepared for her to choose things over her grandchildren, hoarders often do. It's as pernicious and addictive as alcoholism.

I couldn't get through the whole thing. Quite honestly, and I know this is easier said than done, I would stop sending DD to see her or allow her into my home until she gave everything back and I would restrict contact afterwards.

This is incredibly distressing, I feel quite upset that she’s keeping your things and refusing to give them back. She has no boundaries or respect for you as a person. She’s clearly suffering from a compulsion and needs to get some help.

You and your DH need to decide on a plan. Good luck.

And when your baby is born, only see her outside either home and with you present at all times, provided that she has returned everything she's stolen from you. Otherwise, refuse to see her. This will probably be very hard for you but you must absolutely prevent her from controlling you any further and continuing that control on your children. At 4yo your child definitely knows that grandma is changing her into old clothes before leaving her house and also keeping her best toys, that she can only have if she's visiting. Think about it, could that already be playing a role in her relationship with her grandma?

Gosh Andromache has a very important point. Your DM is coercing your child to part with her belongings, changing her unnecessarily. I can’t imagine taking toys or favourite clothes from a child that age without telling them some sort of lie?

Well hoarding is a form of mental illness it isn't rational at all.
There is more than one type too, my first husband hoarded by proxy as he was often homeless due to his chaotic lifestyle.
He would take his hoard and beg a friend to store it for him in their garage or outbuilding for "a few days".
Not surprisingly this turned into a few years whereupon the host would stop being polite and get angry and he would shift the hoard onto someone else.
He managed 5 years with one friend and filled two of her bedrooms to the ceiling. She was a timid woman and just didn't know how to say no.
This has been going on for around 30 years now unbelievably and you do wonder how people get suckered into it.
With your mum you have to set up very stringent limits and boundaries because she will not change and the theft/hoarding will just continue.

Fuck that shit. Take away that she's your mother and think what would you do?

I'd tell her you don't want to see her again. She's a thief and people who steal from a little kid doesn't get to be in people's lives.

I’d be going round when she’s at work and taking all your baby stuff back and bar her from your house; she’s not a hoarder she’s a thief and stealing from her own grandchildren.

She is a kleptomaniac. It’s a mental health thing so you can’t just cure it.

It’s really, really difficult when your mum doesn’t have your best interests at heart.

This is a tough time to be facing into this OP, just as you’re about to have baby no. 2. This is when you need your mum and she is letting you down, big time.

Ultimatum, follow through, very low contact, all those things. Get tough.

BTW, kleptomania and hoarding often go hand in hand because the kleptomaniac tends to keep everything he/she steals.

Really important point about your DD brought up by PP.

This behaviour will have a profound effect on your DD. At the very least she will be confused and maybe also angry or irritated by the clothes changing and keeping her toys. This will unsettle her and make her anxious which could lead to behaviour problems longer term. She doesn’t need this with a new sibling arriving. She also doesn’t need her Mum anxious and preoccupied trying to wrestle this issue which you cannot solve.

So I would be v firm and take actions as described by PP.

Stop being polite - just be assertive and take direct action with v clear boundaries going forward.

I do think she is trying to tease and confuse you in some passive aggressive game aimed to confuse and hurt you with the pram example being the most overt - think how frustrated and disrespected you feel. This is exactly the feelings she is placing in your DD. Make that stop.

Take action now. Get the rational adults on board for support - your OH and hers - sort it once and for all and then turn your back and focus positively on your pregnancy, newborn and lovely little expanded family. Don’t let her pollute that. Push her right back.

You need to stop waiting for her to be different, this is who she is. If you don’t won’t to lose more stuff then you need to stop letting her have access to it.

If you don’t want to stop contact then the contact needs to be supervised.

What was your childhood like? How did your parents get along?

Hoarding is a compulsion. Remember all the hoarding programmes where the therapist would get nowhere, when it really came down to throwing things away.

Really hard to cure, OP

"Compulsive hoarding, unlike obsessive-compulsive disorder, does not respond to treatment with antidepressant drugs, and unlike sufferers of obsessive-compulsive disorder, hoarders actually enjoy being surrounded by all their stuff. “Hoarding seems to be more like compulsive gambling or compulsive shopping because it’s pleasurable to the person,” Maltby says. Moreover, positron-emission tomography brain scans indicate that hoarding and obsessive-compulsive disorder may be quite distinct. In a study published in the June American Journal of Psychiatry, Saxena reported that hoarders have lower activity in the cingulate gyrus—a structure that runs through the middle of the brain, front to back—particularly in areas known to be involved in decision making and focusing attention. People with obsessive-compulsive disorder who are not hoarders do not exhibit this characteristic at all; their brains, in contrast, show elevated activity in areas that generate concerns about danger, contamination, and order."

www.discovermagazine.com/mind/the-psychology-of-hoarding

There are two issues here: the hoarding and the stealing. They're separate, I think.

Have never heard of a hoarder who does this.

I'd not let her see dc on her own. I'd write her a letter to her, setting down everything that's gone on and telling her how you feel. That might bring her to her senses.

She has some major issues that need sorting.

Did your DM lose any babies before/after you were born?

Just a suspicion I have...

I don't think marching round and demanding things will get you anywhere. I suspect she will either get very very upset at parting with the things, or she will pretend to hand them over only to steal them back or replace them with more things.

She's using 'things' to fill a hole, but you can't help her. She needs professional help but is unlikely ever to seek it. All you can do is set boundaries, never hand things over to your DM or leave her in a situation where she can take them. Meet her outside the home and don't let her have your DD unless with things you don't mind her losing.

Play her at her own game. Visit with friend/partner to distract her while you nab anything you can and squirrel it into your car boot. Don't let her see you at it! Once you have it again say nothing - she can't really complain if you've only taken back what is yours....

My mum does similar, although thank god not to this level. She has a rocky relationship with everybody in her life but especially her children and I think having our things with her (or leaving her things with others and accusing them of stealing) represents some kind of bond. As if she has some connection through the things she can't get with actual human.

I've lost one of the DCs birthday presents before I could giv it and there's this niggling feeling she took it. Part of me feels guilty to even think that but the other part knows she's capable of such idiotery.

I am not an expert but it sounds to me like she has a mental health issue. So I dont think, unless she recognises she has an issue and does something to address it eg therapy, there is anything you can do to stop her doing this. Nobody would choose to be like this. I am not sure she is able to control it.

You can only control your actions. No visits at yours as she will take stuff. If you visit hers, you take your children in their oldest tattiest stained clothes that they're growing out of. Visits out of the house. You will change your stance if she gets some help.

What does her partner think about it all?

I was just trying to make her happy

You can't let this be your goal OP. You've got to put the DDs at the top of the list.

Surely you see you can't leave your DDs in her care? I hope you stop letting that happen.

And you can't avoid confrontation forever. Stand up for your family, your finances and your boundaries. Turn up at her house and get your stuff back. Call the police if she doesn't cooperate, stand your ground.

It sounds like your entire family operates by avoiding confrontation, there is no way your DM could have got this bad unless she was pandered to for literally decades. She is a thief! Hold her accountable, if she wants the cops on her doorstep, so be it.

As long as her victims protect her from consequences, she will never have a reason to change. You see that, don't you?

Meetings at parks/cafes only.

If she asks why, say why, you can't risk stuff being taken and not returned.

I think you need to have very firm boundaries, and most likely Low Contact to get a grip of the situation.

No overnight stays.

(However, this may affect your childcare help? I'm just guessing that might be an issue.)

You could ask or demand for the stuff she has taken to be given back, but I wouldn't count on it happening.

I would imagine it would be painful for you OP as well to hear about all the wonderful things your child or newborn is going to get - and know that this will not actually happen in reality .

When someone has such MH problems there is a limit to what you can do. Mostly all you can do is enforce your boundaries, and what happens happens.

Also it might be worth thinking about why you've "put up" with this. It could be just a sense of a "lost cause" trying to put down boundaries.
But are you also afraid to assert your rights in relation your mother (it happens to quite a few of us!). Maybe some good psychotherapy might be helpful to you?