Feeling sad, probably need to let go

[famousforwrongreason]

I’m with a beautiful guy for a couple of years. The longer we’re together, the more he reveals but at the same time holds back if that makes sense.
Transpired he has lots of close women friendships he hasn’t been 100% about with me, including recent exes.
We don’t live together and don’t spend loads of time together due to other commitments but the time we have together is always awesome.
He is always kind and is clever , popular and funny and successful. We have amazing sex and connections on lots of levels and then he takes me to amazing places. He doesn’t always pay for me, I pay my way so it’s a pretty equal relationship. we both have lots of freedom, he def has more free time due to the age of his kids.
The stuff with me learning about the other women kind of happened organically, It was quite casual when we were first together so I never showed much interest, occasionally he’d drop names and some were exes but I didn’t think he was actively meeting them and in regular contact the longer our relationship went on and he never told me any different. He has close friendships with guys too but they don’t seem as important and meet-ups aren’t as regular.
occasionally he’d let slip a meeting or conversation that had happened with exes / women friends (most of whom he’s slept with) and sometimes left me a bit unclear about their relationships...since we got more serious he promised to be more open, typical backstory is that he was very hurt by some past relationships and people cheating that now he’s very cagey but is learning to open up more.
So he tells me more stuff in the spirit of being open and periodically big stuff slips out which leaves me wondering is he just a liar...
hes previously told me he’d never had same sex experiences or threesomes or anything like that, this then changed later on in conversation to ‘not really...’ and More recently he told me he’d had one gay experience years ago but doesn’t remember much as was very drunk.
Then last week he said he’s had some ‘gay’ experiences with different guys and loved it but is definitely heterosexual. he also said I’m the first person he’s ever told.
Not a problem either , I’ve also had gay experiences and I’m pretty open so I understand that.
Then more recently, when drunk he’s told me during sex that he would actually like to have more gay experiences , I asked him if he’d do it again and he was very affirmative, then quickly adding that he’d only like to do it with me there
And then dressing it up as a swinging kind of experience which I could get with but the more he talks about it the more he focuses on the guy on guy aspect. As well as wanting me to give him some kind of lesbian show and basically have a bit of an orgy.
He’s definitely sexually interested in me and (by his behaviour when out and things he’s said or I’ve observed) he’s clearly very interested in women. Our sex life on the whole is exciting and I definitely turn him on.
Recently I’ve learned of some parties he’s been at that I couldn’t attend where people were very ‘free and easy’ and he assured me he was ‘good’... I have no way of disproving this and tbf I don’t want to go down the route of evidence gathering.
So it all sounds ok re the liberal sex life but but there are other bits which just make me a bit doubtful, like half truths and ‘forgetting’ to tell me about meet ups and parties and getting into situations when out without me where he could have had sex , offers on a plate , but chose to stay faithful and some quite derogatory language about some of the women who are trying it on with him , some etc
I just feel weird. Writing it all down sounds terrible but Obviously I’ve just condensed the bits that make me nervous...there’s other aspects which are great. I’ve read a few posts on here today about lap dancing, topless bars, strip clubs, porn etc and it’s a very mixed response.
I am liberal but see myself as a feminist and also feel I mitt be having the mickey being slightly taken out of me because I’m liberal.
We’ve had umpteen discussions as this stuff really rankles but he always talks a good talk and I end up feeling like a controlling paranoid banshee!
Just sounding off really.

We’d split a few times and normally at this stage be having huge arguments where I’d be outlining my case and he’d be batting it all back

Oh that sounds exhausting, more like a court case than a relationship. My ex wanted nothing more in life than to win an argument , whatever the cost.

Even when I found about his affair, he was still arguing that I couldn’t prove they actually had sex, even though I had proof ( and he admitted it ) that they went away together when he told me he was on a work trip.

He’d also do that Psychology 101 thing - I’d explain how upset I was about something he’s done, he’d sit nodding and then say

“ Well you’ve had a stressful time at work and I can see you are upset, however I’m not responsible for your feelings “ .

He would never ever accept responsibility for anything, from the smallest thing to huge issues. Eg he took A LOT of money from our joint account to “ lend” to OW. He maintains to this day that he had a good reason to “lend” it and if I’d not been so unreasonable ( to be angry when I found out ) , she would have paid it all back.

It drove me crazy trying to get him to accept he was wrong. I’d end up angry and tearful while he would be calm and sneering.

Of course I was a fool, I should have saved my breath and walked away years before I did.

He always say “ I’ve got plausible deniability “ , which is a legal term in the US that means that if I couldn't provide evidence for my allegations , he could plausibly deny everything even though it might be true.

Crazy making stuff .

Regardless of whether he shagged someone else or it was reasonable to lend your money - who wants to be with a wanker like that!!

Oh my god @Double3xposure yes exactly like a court case, never accepting responsibility and never apologise unless it’s psychology 101.1: ‘I’m sorry that you feel that way’
this one works in law and is a bloody good arguer, how weird! He would make an amazing defence lawyer. And use phrases like plausible deniability all the fucking time
You’re right, it is actual crazy making, this is why I haven’t bothered making him aware that I have irrefutable evidence of his latest lie, because I know he will just excuse, minimise and try to befuddle. I’m not in the market for it anymore!
I’m glad you finally got away.

How are you today op? He sounds like a lying head fuck

@Princessfaffalot I’m ok thank you for asking. Trying not to dwell too much, fortunately I have a very full life and many demands on me and my time which really helps.
Once I realised how much hoodwinking I actually tolerated then it’s pretty much killed any love or hankerings (well most hankerings) the thing I will miss most is the physical connection and the amazing places we went to and had planned this year.
Although the sex was phenomenal, now I know more about him and that he has most likely lied about all his experience and preferences, it kind of takes away that impression of us having great chemistry and embarking on this adventure together. Which is quite sad if it was all just illusion. Makes me feel less special than he led me to believe.

I’m glad you’re doing ok and you’ve done really well to recognise all his shitty faults and behaviour. I had a similar experience, he made out like we were on this exciting, hedonistic new journey together when actually he had done it all before and was lying to my face about it!

Do you think you used your relationship with him to keep your feelings of grief at your bereavement at arms' length? So he sort of stood between you and having to feel all the awfulness? A bit of displacement activity?

Oh wow @Princessfaffalot isn’t that weird you had the same experience, there must be loads of them about!
I really don’t understand what there is to gain from it when there’s plenty of people willing to have open and / or crazy relationships wipthit having to lie daily.

@Zaphodsotherhead, I hadn’t thought of it that way but reading your words made me cry so, yes, I probably did
Conversely, on top of that, I think our whole relationship I’ve turned my anger, frustration and despair at him inwards onto myself but also outwards to other people who were also treating me like I meant nothing, like employers and pisstaking friends. I couldn’t find it in Myself to tell him to fuck off so instead I became vocal and assertive to others, which isn’t such a bad thing. He acted as my cheerleader throughout any challenges I was having with others. Always ready to listen and support and always on my side and kind, logical, offering to help etc. Which made it all the more weird that when I stood up to him there was no understanding or appreciation of my opinions thoughts and feelings. He was completely oblivious to my viewpoint. It took me a while to realise this!
Most of my anger, frustration and despair was also at myself for being hoodwinked and ground down, again.

Mine was the exact same, he was my number one fan and not only did he always listen he also gave me the best advice...except it wasn’t advice. It was instruction. If I ever chose to not take his advice he would get sulky, petulant and eventually angry. Then every time I dared to talk back or imply he wasn’t always right or he wasn’t perfect he would bring it back to me being unhappy because I hadn’t taken his advice! That probably doesn’t make sense, it’s hard to describe but I’ll try; So if I argued with a friend he would tell me what I should do/say to them. If I chose to ignore that advice and then a day later asked him to put his plate in the sink or put the loo seat down etc it would be “ok I understand you’re upset because if the argument with X and you know you should have listened to me but please don’t take it out on me”...erm no! You’re being a dick! Ugh it was so frustrating. And he was a lying bloody toe rag.

If I chose to ignore that advice and then a day later asked him to put his plate in the sink or put the loo seat down etc it would be “ok I understand you’re upset because if the argument with X and you know you should have listened to me but please don’t take it out on me”...erm no! You’re being a dick! Ugh it was so frustrating. And he was a lying bloody toe rag

This is EXACTLY what my ex used to do.

I learned that if I ever confided in him , he would use it against me. After I told him that I was physically abused as a child, he would bring it up all the time.

Eg to use your example @Princessfaffalot -if I asked him to put his plate in the sink , he would ignore me, come across, take my hands , look meaningfully into my eyes and say

“ You know, I’m not your father “.

Then walk away, leaving the plate.

Of course, then I wanted to throw the plate at him. Which of course would just prove that I was irrationally angry at him because of what my father did. That would make my EX a poor helpless victim of my craziness, a brave hero who was married to a deranged and troubled women . Rather than just a lazy arse who couldn’t put his own dishes in the dishwasher.

BTW I never did throw a plate. Or anything else for that matter. I’m not even a shouter. But I got very stressed and unhappy trying to work out why I was so angry all the time, when I had such a kind and understanding husband .

If I’d posted about it on MN , I’d have had people telling me

“ men don’t see the mess “
“ maybe you asked him in the wrong tone of voice “
“ you are controlling him, that’s abuse “
“ why does he have to do things to your standard “
“ well he works longer hours than you so it’s your job”.

Urgh @Princessfaffalot always with the manipulative language and mindgames.

@Double3xposure yes once they find your weak spot or Achilles heel you’re toast to them!
I like to think my ex wasn’t nasty in that way but of course every time I took umbrage with his actions or behaviour he always blamed my anxiety, mental health or external issues .
My self esteem became low enough I just accepted his version of the events and his version of the reasons for my reactions.
He has made contact with me over something very very innocuous and blatantly an excuse. I just shut it down but I do want a few bits back from his house, nothing major but a could of bits it would cost me to replace and one very small sentimental thing from my daughter. Not sure how to go about retrieving or whether to just let it go?
I’m sure he’ll contact me at some point as I have bits of his too, mainly clothes. We do not live locally to each other so it’s not straightforward but could be managed without seeing each other I guess.

Famous I read your post and I have to ask have you thought if he is dabbling & promiscuous that sooner or later you may be likely to become hiv positive
I struggle to understand why you would
go bareback at all even after one test. In between you do not know where he has been sexually right.
I would run a Mile from this relationship, it is clear by some of your comments mentally he is fu king with you also.
Pack up his stuff, arrange it to go with an exchange for yours I'm sure a friend or he could leave it at your door.
if you go back to him have a condom in hand.
Take the relationship as a learning curve and you owe yourself self respect.
I was with a man so similar to yours I struggle to read the post without making up a new name and telling you.
Just the once on the cusp of it ending we had sex. This is when I contracted hiv
You know you are one shag away from the possibility when you touch him! That is your reality. Take a step back and put yourself first, the only person to really care for you is Yourself.

Could you have the items collected by someone else ? Or have him drop off at a friends house ?

Otherwise meet up in a public place eg costa and just exchange the items. Then just leave without more than a “ hi how are you, yes I’m well thanks, have you got the items? Great, thanks , must dash, bye”.

Take a friend with you if you think you might weaken and have a coffee / drink with him. Because then you will get the nostalgia, emotional blackmail and guilt tripping.

DONT LET HIM COME TO YOUR PLACE or go to his or you will end up in bed. And you will regret it later.

@letsbeonit how sad your story is. I’m so sorry. I didn’t mean to look flippant regarding safe sex. I honestly believed that we had both tested negative and both sterilised and I truly believed his moralising and posturing regarding cheaters and I admit complete naivety here. He was adamant he wasn’t shagging anyone else and he wove a good tale.
I am going to get tested now because obviously I’ve found out he’s a complete liar. I didn’t really want to face up to it and because I’d found condoms I have tried to tell myself if he was shagging around that he was being careful with others . I realise how stupid this makes me sound. Despite having been lied to by many men, I’m never quite switched on enough to fathom the extent of it. I always believe in benefit of the doubt and face value.
Now I feel very stupid and ashamed and I will arrange a gum visit ASAP. I hope you are well and well managed on your medication and able to live a full life.
I will not be going back to him. The thought makes the hairs in my arms stand on end.

@Double3xposure thank you. I’m not going to do anything for now. When it comes to it I will just ask him to send the stuff or just let it go. I’m not going to contact him but if he opens a conversation again I’ll ask then. In the meantime I’m grey rock. I do not want to see him. He makes my skin crawl and I’m so angry how he can play games with people like that. He did so much which he got away with only because I was at a low ebb.