Am I right in thinking this is inappropriate?

[contrary13]

(Apologies in advance: this is longer than I thought it was going to be - but I'm trying not to dripfeed and still trying to wrap my own head around it, to be honest.)

One of my oldest friends admitted to me last night that, when she was breaking her heart over the breakdown of her marriage, her (hopefully soon to be ex) husband abandoned her to the care of their 6 year old child and disappeared off into the bedroom of her (not his) 14 year old daughter. Where he stayed, door shut, for an hour or more.

A 14 year old who has repeatedly told her mother that she hates her stepfather and "wants him gone", and who, because of her mild learning difficulties, is (to quote my friend) "naïve" and possibly an easy target for abuse. My friend struggles with her own MH and has 50/50 custody of her oldest child - whose father was extremely controlling and emotionally abusive to my friend during their entire relationship. We didn't see her by herself for the entire time they were together - he had to insert himself into our every meeting, whether it was for a quick coffee and a catch-up chat, or a trip out with the children. Her current husband seemed so very different when they got together - he'd stay with their two children when they were babies so that she could meet with us, when we did see him, he'd actually make an effort to engage us in conversation, and yet... I don't know. Something about him has always seemed a little off-kilter, but my friend seemed happy, so I ignored the niggle at the back of my mind. I figured it wasn't my place to get involved.

But now I'm extremely concerned. An hour alone with an impressionable 14 year old, in her bedroom, whilst her mother/his wife is in floods of tears in the garden, being comforted by their 6 year old? After he'd told her that he's "sick of saving [her]" and apparently has PTSD as a direct result of her "being mad". The 14 year old "hates" him and "wants him gone" - throws tantrums when he's around, my friend says, and does her utmost to have her mother's attention all to herself... and both of the younger children have behavioural issues which always seem to surprise my friend (her youngest bit her teacher, for example), and which she brushes under the proverbial carpet, very quickly once she's told us.

My friend told us that the marriage was over... maybe a month ago. We all thought that meant that he'd moved out, and she was living with the children in the house which she inherited from an extended family member before they got together (when her first marriage ended, husband #1 kept their marital home and she moved into the house she'd inherited - she said at the time that as much as she missed her family member, she was grateful for the house). Seemingly not. And this isn't an amicable end to the marriage at all - which, again, he seemed like a decent bloke whenever he was around us, so we all just assumed they were working out who has their children, when, he'd moved out, and so on. My friend's been upset, but nothing out of the ordinary for a woman whose marriage has just come to an end. They'd been together for almost a decade and had two children by the time they got married - 3 years ago, and last night she said that the argument which occurred immediately before he shut himself into her 14 year old's bedroom, was about how she'll have to sell "their" house - before descending into a tirade of abuse aimed directly at her.

Everything's her fault, she's mad, she's given him PTSD (which a few of us have raised an eyebrow over, I'm not going to lie - my friend said that this was the first she'd heard of it), and she'll have to sell the home in which 3 dependents live, 2 full time and 1 part time. That all seems like emotional abuse, to me, never mind whatever is going on with her 14 year old.

I have tried to gently convince her to take her 14 year old to their GP over concerns about inappropriate behaviour, but right now, she's still defending him. She still loves him, can't understand why he married her at all if she was such a nutjob (her words, not mine), and actually? She seems quite angry that her 14 year old child has somehow stolen her husband's affections away from her - even if nothing is going on, he should not be shutting himself away in the child's bedroom alone with her for any period of time, though, should he? - and I have a horrible suspicion that he's alienating her own child from her somehow.

Her 14 year old has pretty much come out with the text book "mum, he's abusing me" - and my friend has ignored it. Her younger children, never mind the oldest, should not have to witness and overhear tirades of abuse being hurled at their mother, reducing her to floods of tears and them feeling that they should be comforting her, instead of her reassuring them (coupling that with their behavioural issues, I'm now wondering if this is something they've grown up witnessing). And, deep down, I do think he married her to get a 50% claim on her assests - ie, a house which, without her having inherited it, they/she/he would not have been able to afford to buy, themselves (the house is mortgage free, too, which really helped my friend when her first marriage broke down, as she'd been on maternity and then sick leave for a while at the time).

I want to support my friend fully through this - she's a lovely, kind, intelligent woman who is like a sister to me - but at the same time I want to shake her, because she's allowing him to do this, not only to her... but to her children, whom she seems to be doing virtually nothing to protect from their marital breakdown. Or from him. And I don't know if it's my shock at the way all of this came spiralling out (she began the conversation with "please don't hate me, too", for crying out loud), or the fact that I know she's just as culpable as he is for their arguments (or... is she, if he's gaslighting/being emotionally abusive towards her?), but I cannot shake the fact that this is wholly inappropriate behaviour from him - and I don't know what to do. If we lived closer (there's over 200 miles between us), it'd be easier to help her, or to suss out what's actually going on between him and the 14 year old, but we don't. Our other friends and I're having to do this through 'e'mail and telephone calls, really. Hence how she's been able to keep this under wraps for so long - that and the fact that she admits she's ashamed and embarrassed by a good 90% of it all (which is nonsense, these things happen, and she's not the only one amongst us to be on their second divorce!). I am more worried about the children, though, to be brutally honest - the 14 year old in particular.

So, wise Mumsnetters... how can I convince my friend to actually find out what is going on between her (hopefully soon to be ex) husband and her 14 year old daughter, and to take him to the cleaners, rather than it being the other way round? Should I contact her first husband (we're still "friends" on Social Media) with my concerns about the inappropriatness of this situation regarding the 14 year old (she is his daughter, too, at the end of the day - and I know that if I were him, which thank everything I'm not, I'd want to know for the sake of my child's wellbeing and safety)? I'm not worried about my friend finding out that I've broken her confidence over this - she knows me well enough to know that I will do the right thing by the child over her, and I wonder whether this is why she picked me to tell. How do I help her to help herself and her daughter, essentially? Or should I mind my own beeswax and keep my nose out completely?

I'm at a junction: which way do I turn?

Her 14 year old has pretty much come out with the text book "mum, he's abusing me"

Unless I'm missing something here I wonder what it is that you feel is inappropriate? What has the 14 year old said that would make you feel this other than the "I want him out". I assume she means out of the house.
If your friend and soon to be stbex have been together over a decade this would mean the child in question was only 4 years old when he came on the scene. Is a perhaps possible that although he may not boilogically be her father that he may well see him self in that roll and comforted her due to her mild learning difficulties?

Ginny, it's entirely possible that he was merely comforting her - apart from the fact that he shut himself into her bedroom, closed the door, stayed in there for an hour... whilst his 6 year old daughter was outside, in the garden, comforting his allegedly "mad" wife. I just... I don't know. I hope I'm leaping to conclusions - and am the first to admit that - but I think its wholly inappropriate.

If the 14 year old "hates" him, and "wants him out", then... why did he choose to comfort her over his own, biological children (9 and 6)? Both were around, both of them were distressed... why pick the one who "hates" him?

This, in fairness, is why I turned to this forum - because I don't know if I'm reading this wrong, if I ought to be concerned, if I ought to share the concerns that I do have, if my friend and (equally importantly) all of her children need help from people better equipped than I to deal with this. The way my firend phrased it, it was as if she feels that there is abuse of some kind going on towards the 14 year old - but she's so low, so beaten down by this whole thing, that... she's immediately leaping to his defence still. And right now, I suspect that she'd rather be rid of the 14 year old and have her husband back.

You need to report to social services that you have concerns the 14 yo is being abused by her step father! Can you get to speak to her on her own to hear her story?

I’d be tempted to contact the first husband.Express your concerns and let him investigate.

OP it would be helpful if you were clear about what you think is going on and why. Also who do you have concern for and what are you prepared to do about it. You are implying things and hinting. Stating accusations of abuse but mixing them in with teen drama of hating her stepfather.

But at the end of the day, if you suspect abuse of a vulnerable child then you should report it. It doesn’t matter what the mother thinks.

@contrary13 I can definitely see why you are concerned. However for the sake of your own peace of mind I would contact the 14 year olds father with your concerns rather than involve social services. If Your friends first husband then decides to take things further then its I think this would be a better outcome in terms of preserving your friendship also just in case you might have the wrong end of the stick but I firmly believe in trusting your instincts on this one

I think it sounds like the guys is raping his 14 year old step daughter and the mother is ignoring it.
Or maybe I'm reading your whole post wrong...

Her 14 year old has pretty much come out with the text book "mum, he's abusing me"
I'm not sure I understand all the other stuff, but you have heard that a child is being abused (sexually?) by her stepfather and has no support from her mother. If this is a close friend, could you speak to the child and see if you could go with her to the police?

Has the 14 year verbally said he is abusing her.

There are many issues here, one that's sticking out is the children's "behavioural issues" this is a type of communication for a child. These adults arent parenting. They arent meeting the emotional needs (neglect) of the kids. Therefore it's a safeguarding issue.

You need to report this. They are not safe. From what you say its, she is not managing well there needs support from professionals. I would message NSPCC for guidance.

Her 14 year old has pretty much come out with the text book "mum, he's abusing me"

The whole thing is a mess but this is the most important line in the whole thing. Forget the other drama you need to report your concerns to Social services and be absolutely explicit about what you know. It’s not your job, or the ex husbands job to try and unpick this.

I think your instincts are right, OP, and it's good that you're concerned. I don't buy the suggestion that this man was 'comforting' his DSD. Apart from anything else, that sounds like it would be out of character. If he really isn't sexually abusing her, wouldn't he be anxious to avoid any situation that would be potentially compromising? The last thing he'd want to do would be to shut the bedroom door.

Yes, teenagers do make things up, but this isn't an NT 14 year old, she's vulnerable. An allegation of SA can't be overlooked; if your friend doesn't act, her DD will say something at school, or to her dad, in all probability and she could lose her DC. I think there's a good chance that there has been abuse, sadly. Especially because of the fact that she used to get on well with him (and the mother was jealous, another red flag), and now she hates him and wants him out.

I'm an SA survivor (as is my DSis), we were abused by our F and others). It started at a very early age, and I remember that it was at around the ages of 13/14 that I started to be repelled by my F. I used to avoid him and refuse to sit next to him. My DM did pick up on this, but she just told me off for hurting his feelings. She never asked why, and I never told her. (Whether I could have vocalised it, I'll never know.)

This whole situation is toxic anyway, regardless of whether or not there's SA. The man has turned her into a wreck and has made himself the victim and has her believing that he's the one who has PTSD (I'm sure she has it). That was how my F operated, I still say 'Sorry' when it isn't my fault.

A 6 year old should never have to comfort her mum, it should be the other way around. And yes, he should have been comforting his own DC, not the DSD who hates him.

You must call Social Services. There were people who knew that something was wrong and a few knew the truth. They covered it up and my siblings and I are incredibly damaged as a result.

You can't support a friend who won't see it. Ring ss today or you also fail her dc..
Imo.

Yes, please contact NSPCC and report your concerns. This sounds like a potential safeguarding issue which we all have a duty to report. Think about it in terms of "What if I'm right?" rather than "What if I'm wrong?"

Trying to convince your friend might be a lost cause, though you could gently guide her toward appropriate resources if she voices concern herself. Perhaps better to support her generally, she will need to build up her self-esteem and it takes time to break free from abuse. In the meantime, you must take steps to protect a vulnerable child who can do nothing to protect herself and is potentially at risk.

I'd involve the SS. Both parents are clearly unstable and her mother isn't fit to look after her. If possible, I'd try to speak to the 14 year old girl and ask her whether the man in question is being abusive. Please raise your concerns to the SS at once.

As it's not possible for me to pop round and try to engineer a chat with the 14 year old (as I said in the opening post; there's 200 miles, possibly a few more on top of that, between us. Friend lives in Wales, I live in the south-east, as do all our other old friends and Friend's parents), I spent yesterday afternoon doing two things:

(1) I called Children's Services/Social Services in the town nearest to where Friend and her children live. It took a while to find the right number/person, but eventually I managed to speak to someone and lay out my concerns for them. I said it might be nothing, it could be entirely innocent, but I'm concerned that it's inappropriate behaviour and that perhaps (well, there is no "perhaps" about it) my Friend could do with some support, alongside any that they can provide for her children. They're going to look into it, although they seemed shocked that she'd moved so far away from her friends and family - until I explained that she did so because her first husband got a job there, and he could/can be a bit controlling, at which point the lovely young man seemed to grasp the concept.

(2) I went to visit her parents and told them what Friend had said, showed them the messages in which I asked her if she'd spoken to anyone about it, had she considered that there might be abuse going on, that the younger children shouldn't be witnessing their parents screaming at each other and/or sobbing in the garden afterwards - and her answers, which were all "oh, I've asked [Husband #2] about it, and he says absolutely not". Which of course he bloody would! She's so in thrall to him that she can't grasp that if he is abusing her daughter, of course he's going to deny it! I also told them that I've spoken to the relevant service about it and it's definitely going to be looked into, but I wanted them to know so that they could support Friend (I didn't add "if/when this all goes terribly wrong for her and she has the children removed from her care", but it's what I have a suspicion might happen to them). They were shocked. I don't think I've ever seen someone's face go so pale as her dad's did reading those messages, and I feel like shit about dropping this into their laps - but those are their grandchildren, and Friend is their child. As such, surely, they're the first port of call to help? Friend's parents would give her the moon on a stick if she asked them to, so it's not like there's a toxic relationship there. They visit as often as they can, and up until a couple of years ago, I know they all used to holiday together abroad.

Friend's Mum (FM) said that they'd wondered why Friend had cancelled a visit "home" last month, that she'd not even told them that she and Husband #2 were "having problems", and that it's been several months since they last spoke to the 14 year old. Friend "fobbed" them off with this as an excuse: "[14 year old]'s decided that she's going to be Emo about life, so she's locked herself in her bedroom and is refusing to come out until I do what she wants!". Now we're wondering if the 14 year old's "be[ing] Emo" is something to do with Husband #2... Friend's parents had some of the 14 year old's artwork pinned to their fridge - and although they didn't directly show them to me, I could, quite clearly, see them. All anime/lolita style girls dressed in dark colours and crying. As a mum to a child that age (my son's a little older), I know that anime cartoons on Netflix are a big "thing" - my son went through a brief phrase of wanting to live in Japan because of it, for example - but, and I might be wrong, I don't think any of it was as morbid and depressing as that poor girl's artwork (she is very talented at drawing, and I suspect that it's her release). Something is obviously going on in her life that ought not to be - whether Husband #2 is involved or not.

Friend is going to know that it's me who has done this. She knows that telling me what seems to have been going on would be enough to galvinate me into some sort of action - and because of the distance, this is the only action that, realistically, I could take. I didn't put this in the opening post, because (a) it was nothing to do with Husband #2 and (b) there are times when I simply forget this part of her life - but FM reminded me of it yesterday when we were talking, and it has a lot of bearing on Friend's situation with her 14 year old. The divorce between Friend and Husband #1 was nasty - and it came about because he found out that whilst he was at work, Friend was neglecting their then infant/young baby - she was actually sectioned (I have no clue as to why, and I didn't like to ask at the time). Husband #1 really pushed for full custody, but settled for 50/50. Which is why, when Husband #2 came on the scene (really quickly after Friend left her marriage, actually, because she blames Husband #1 for the fact that she was hospitalised), we all saw how happy she was... and thought she'd found a good man. Last night it struck me, though. She was easy pickings for an abuser, wasn't she? And with a vulnerable child to boot.

I've done all I can now (apart from looking after Friend's parents dog when they go to visit in a few days - whether Friend wants them around, or not, her mum is determined to be there, and I'm so glad about that). Thanks for helping

Report to the fucking police abd social services asap!!!

Fucking hell - you've said the 14 yr old girl had said he's abusing her .. and the mother's confirmed he died things like go into her room, door closed, fir an hour at z time!

What wax he supposedly comforting her about - for an hour with the food closed?!

But must importantly, she's said sge's being abused by him.

Dont sit in this any longer, dont rely in he'd parents to do it.

That poor fkg child is likely being raped in her room while her vulnerable, unstable, brainwashed mother is elsewhere in the house.

What normal mother wouldnt go into that room to check what's happening, and if the four was locked, demand to know why and find a way in.

Everything stinks to high heaven.

Do something about this op, please - follow through on reporting it, with all the info. you have.

So many typos sorry - was typing like crazy because this is do disturbing.

Can you find out what school the girl is at - surely there can't be that many secondary schools in their town/area?

*so disturbing

I find it pretty disgusting that you're saying SHE may be turning a blind eye to abuse of her child yet you've done exactly the same.

Fuck helping her.
You first priority should have been that child.

Yes, you've spoken to somebody now.
But you did it too late.
No sane person needs to come on Mumsnet to get their opinion validated before phoning Social Services AND Police with their concerns.

Well done op. You did the right thing.
Don't ever doubt that. Even if you lose your friend. She will know you had all of their best interests at heart. In time she may thank you.

For me, this thread has been so triggering, because it's what my childhood was like. And the people I blame most are those who knew about it but didn't act. I blame my DM less, because I can see that she was a victim, too, and taken advantage of. (She was orphaned at 10 and abused by the uncle who was her guardian afterwards.)

If you don't act then you share some of the responsibility for what's been going on. You should have acted as soon as your friend told you what the 14 year old had said.

It's good that you have acted now. All the children need to be taken into care. Your friend isn't fit to be a mum right now and needs to sort herself out.

Gilbert - I have. I called the nearest Children's Services/Social Services to them, that I could find a number for. They are going to look into it. It took so long, because I don't live in Wales, and I had to use my son's Google-Fu to find their number. I have spoken to someone. It WILL be followed up on.

Bobby - No sane person? Wow. So because I was shocked at/by what I was hearing, and wanted confirmation in writing so that she couldn't later deny it all when confronted by the appropriate authorities, which I was actually getting before/as/and after I made the post on here (looking for guidance and support - because my friend is, in all probability, going to lose custody of all three of her children because of this, and she's in desparate need of support, too, as I stated), I'm insane. Great. Cheers for that.

I don't know how long this has been going on for, because my friend didn't mention a think about any of this to me, or anyone else, I don't think. Her own parents didn't even know that her marriage was in freefall, and certainly not that their 14 year old granddaughter had been saying she hates her stepfather and "wants him out". It's not their fault. I know her parents. If her mum had any inkling of abuse, she would have reported him for it, herself.

Had I known earlier, I would have done precisely what I did yesterday morning. I asked Friend for clarification, I asked her questions without leading her, and she repeated what she had told me the night before. In writing. So she will have a job of denying that she has implied there has been/is abuse going on enough that when I asked her "have you spoken to [14 year old] about whether or not someone is being inappropriate with her?" I got "well, I asked [Husband #2] but he said of course not." (which, yes; he would do, regardless).

Without it in writing, under her own 'e'mail account, Friend could have claimed this was a malicious report. That she and I'd had an argument, and I was being spiteful... and then it very probably would have been swept away - and if there is abuse going on in that house? It needs to be addressed, it needs to be rectified, the child(ren) needs support, help, and protecting. If I could have swept in and taken those children away with me the other night, believe me; I would have done so. But I live too far away, and I don't know any of Friend's local mum friends. I don't even know, really, if she even has any. And I couldn't randomly message a total stranger on the off-chance that they're her friend and tell them "oh, [Friend]'s just implied that there might be abuse going on between [14 year old] and [Husband #2]", because that would give Husband #2 enough time to devise a cover story if he is abusing his stepdaughter. Because, actually, he may very well not be.

I simply don't know.

But for the sake of this being taken seriously, by the relevant authorities, I wanted to have something concrete to present to them, rather than just hearsay. It's all well and good saying "no sane person would...", but if there is inappropriate behaviour going on, I wanted there to be evidence that the accusations actually came from Friend, not me (otherwise, I could just come off as a troublemaker/wasting their resources), and secondly, if there isn't, then that's indicative that Friend is having some sort of breakdown, and needs help. Which I can't give to her.

Either way, her children lose. And that breaks my heart, as a mother. It truly does. Because, as I said before, I've been where they are. Like another poster, I was sexually abused as a child and emotionally manipulated into not telling anyone. The one person I did work up the nerve to tell, my grandmother, didn't do anything, really, to protect me from my abuser (her son). I wouldn't just blithely abandon another child to that fate, because it damages you. All of the signs were in front of her own grandparents and father, though - and they didn't notice them!!! That is their burden to bear, though; not mine. I have done the only thing that I could do.

I'm not going to lie. This has shocked me. Up until the other night, I truly believed Friend was happy, stable, a great mum. There was no indication, as far as I knew, that anything was wrong - I thought her marriage was happy, she'd found a good man and her children were simply exhibiting behavioural issues because of jealousy over the amount of money that Husband #1 lavishes upon their half-sister. Because that is how Friend has always explained it. That her ex spoils the 14 year old and she flaunts it in front of them, "not realising that [Friend] can't afford to spend as much on them". Perhaps I should have compared the 6 year old's behaviour to mine at that age - but I didn't. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea fucking culpa. But you see, my 15 year old son used to bite me when he was frustrated at that age, and he certainly was not/has never been abused. If I thought anything of it, I probably thought that it was similar to my son's frustration biting (I have scars on one hand from where I had hold of his hand in mine and wouldn't let him run into the road, as a 4 year old, because I quite like him not squashed by a car, thanks! And the 6 year old child would have been around that age when Friend mentioned that incident to me and another friend)

Right now, I don't care if I lose Friend as... well, a friend, really. And I accept that there is a distinct possibility that will happen. I also know that last night? The 14 year old was at her Dad's - where she'll stay until next Wednesday, and if her maternal grandmother has any say in the matter, she'll be there for a lot longer. Unless there's a reason as to why she can't - I presume he'll be looked into, too, but I don't know.

I told my friend's parents, because I wanted her to have some support when this is investigated. I don't know when that is going to be - I'm not going to be privy to that information, because I simply reported my concerns. It's up to them now. Usually, when she's not been told she's insane (see Bobby how abusive that accusation actually is, and why I don't appreciate it being flung at me, even by a stranger who - like me - is concerned about 3 children's welfare?) by the husband she is still in love with, along with claims that she's given him PTSD (can you be given it? I always thought it was something that you developed...), and her fears of being made homeless when he divorces her... my friend doesn't behave like this. Normally, if she thought there was something inappropriate going on between anyone and one of her children, someone would be scraping their remains off the walls. Which is how I know her mental health has taken a turn for the worse (not surprising, though, really).

The long and the short of it, though, is that 99% of this situation is beyond my control. I did what I thought best with the 1% I had handed to me. But how many of you hurling abuse at me, because you presumed that I was idly sitting by and allowing a child to potentially be abused by their stepfather, would have taken such information calmly and gleefully to a service without any proof? All of you? You'd trot along to the nearest police station and say "oh, my friend hinted that there might be this situation occurring..."? Because they'd laugh at you and do nothing. Must be nice to be perfect, I guess.

To those of you who understood and reassured me that I wasn't over-reacting, thank you. And to Bobby; I get it, I really do.

Or should I mind my own beeswax and keep my nose out completely?

I'm sorry, but how could that ever be an option? If any one has any sort of knowledge of abuse going on, it's absolutely their duty to report it.

I'm glad to see you have. I hope that poor girl gets the support she needs.

I cant work out wether you have embellished this story, hugely, to try and make this man out as an abuser so you can justify getting involved and paint your friend as a victim

Or if this man IS an abuser and you and the mother is ignoring it and you are considering just letting it go.

Both options are horrifying tbh

It isn't down to you to prove whether this man is an abuser or not. The 14 year old has made a disclosure of abuse and it needs to be investigated by SS. As I said in an earlier post, the change in her attitude towards your friend's DH is a red flag, but strangers online can't resolve this dilemma for you.

The whole family dynamic is toxic, though, so it can't be ignored. But now you've made the report to SS, it's down to them to protect your friend's DC. If they're not safe with your friend and her DH, then they need to be in care. Your friend can then get herself help to sort herself out.