Am I right in thinking this is inappropriate?

[contrary13]

(Apologies in advance: this is longer than I thought it was going to be - but I'm trying not to dripfeed and still trying to wrap my own head around it, to be honest.)

One of my oldest friends admitted to me last night that, when she was breaking her heart over the breakdown of her marriage, her (hopefully soon to be ex) husband abandoned her to the care of their 6 year old child and disappeared off into the bedroom of her (not his) 14 year old daughter. Where he stayed, door shut, for an hour or more.

A 14 year old who has repeatedly told her mother that she hates her stepfather and "wants him gone", and who, because of her mild learning difficulties, is (to quote my friend) "naïve" and possibly an easy target for abuse. My friend struggles with her own MH and has 50/50 custody of her oldest child - whose father was extremely controlling and emotionally abusive to my friend during their entire relationship. We didn't see her by herself for the entire time they were together - he had to insert himself into our every meeting, whether it was for a quick coffee and a catch-up chat, or a trip out with the children. Her current husband seemed so very different when they got together - he'd stay with their two children when they were babies so that she could meet with us, when we did see him, he'd actually make an effort to engage us in conversation, and yet... I don't know. Something about him has always seemed a little off-kilter, but my friend seemed happy, so I ignored the niggle at the back of my mind. I figured it wasn't my place to get involved.

But now I'm extremely concerned. An hour alone with an impressionable 14 year old, in her bedroom, whilst her mother/his wife is in floods of tears in the garden, being comforted by their 6 year old? After he'd told her that he's "sick of saving [her]" and apparently has PTSD as a direct result of her "being mad". The 14 year old "hates" him and "wants him gone" - throws tantrums when he's around, my friend says, and does her utmost to have her mother's attention all to herself... and both of the younger children have behavioural issues which always seem to surprise my friend (her youngest bit her teacher, for example), and which she brushes under the proverbial carpet, very quickly once she's told us.

My friend told us that the marriage was over... maybe a month ago. We all thought that meant that he'd moved out, and she was living with the children in the house which she inherited from an extended family member before they got together (when her first marriage ended, husband #1 kept their marital home and she moved into the house she'd inherited - she said at the time that as much as she missed her family member, she was grateful for the house). Seemingly not. And this isn't an amicable end to the marriage at all - which, again, he seemed like a decent bloke whenever he was around us, so we all just assumed they were working out who has their children, when, he'd moved out, and so on. My friend's been upset, but nothing out of the ordinary for a woman whose marriage has just come to an end. They'd been together for almost a decade and had two children by the time they got married - 3 years ago, and last night she said that the argument which occurred immediately before he shut himself into her 14 year old's bedroom, was about how she'll have to sell "their" house - before descending into a tirade of abuse aimed directly at her.

Everything's her fault, she's mad, she's given him PTSD (which a few of us have raised an eyebrow over, I'm not going to lie - my friend said that this was the first she'd heard of it), and she'll have to sell the home in which 3 dependents live, 2 full time and 1 part time. That all seems like emotional abuse, to me, never mind whatever is going on with her 14 year old.

I have tried to gently convince her to take her 14 year old to their GP over concerns about inappropriate behaviour, but right now, she's still defending him. She still loves him, can't understand why he married her at all if she was such a nutjob (her words, not mine), and actually? She seems quite angry that her 14 year old child has somehow stolen her husband's affections away from her - even if nothing is going on, he should not be shutting himself away in the child's bedroom alone with her for any period of time, though, should he? - and I have a horrible suspicion that he's alienating her own child from her somehow.

Her 14 year old has pretty much come out with the text book "mum, he's abusing me" - and my friend has ignored it. Her younger children, never mind the oldest, should not have to witness and overhear tirades of abuse being hurled at their mother, reducing her to floods of tears and them feeling that they should be comforting her, instead of her reassuring them (coupling that with their behavioural issues, I'm now wondering if this is something they've grown up witnessing). And, deep down, I do think he married her to get a 50% claim on her assests - ie, a house which, without her having inherited it, they/she/he would not have been able to afford to buy, themselves (the house is mortgage free, too, which really helped my friend when her first marriage broke down, as she'd been on maternity and then sick leave for a while at the time).

I want to support my friend fully through this - she's a lovely, kind, intelligent woman who is like a sister to me - but at the same time I want to shake her, because she's allowing him to do this, not only to her... but to her children, whom she seems to be doing virtually nothing to protect from their marital breakdown. Or from him. And I don't know if it's my shock at the way all of this came spiralling out (she began the conversation with "please don't hate me, too", for crying out loud), or the fact that I know she's just as culpable as he is for their arguments (or... is she, if he's gaslighting/being emotionally abusive towards her?), but I cannot shake the fact that this is wholly inappropriate behaviour from him - and I don't know what to do. If we lived closer (there's over 200 miles between us), it'd be easier to help her, or to suss out what's actually going on between him and the 14 year old, but we don't. Our other friends and I're having to do this through 'e'mail and telephone calls, really. Hence how she's been able to keep this under wraps for so long - that and the fact that she admits she's ashamed and embarrassed by a good 90% of it all (which is nonsense, these things happen, and she's not the only one amongst us to be on their second divorce!). I am more worried about the children, though, to be brutally honest - the 14 year old in particular.

So, wise Mumsnetters... how can I convince my friend to actually find out what is going on between her (hopefully soon to be ex) husband and her 14 year old daughter, and to take him to the cleaners, rather than it being the other way round? Should I contact her first husband (we're still "friends" on Social Media) with my concerns about the inappropriatness of this situation regarding the 14 year old (she is his daughter, too, at the end of the day - and I know that if I were him, which thank everything I'm not, I'd want to know for the sake of my child's wellbeing and safety)? I'm not worried about my friend finding out that I've broken her confidence over this - she knows me well enough to know that I will do the right thing by the child over her, and I wonder whether this is why she picked me to tell. How do I help her to help herself and her daughter, essentially? Or should I mind my own beeswax and keep my nose out completely?

I'm at a junction: which way do I turn?

Mittens - I'm so sorry. I understand. I was told that if I told anyone what my uncle had done to me, no one would believe me - by my grandmother, when I was 6 years old. He was a pillar of the community, the revered youngest son/brother... and abusive as fuck. He died a few years ago and even though, by then, I'd told my father what he'd done to me... he still went along to the funeral. All I could think was: "he was right; no one believes me". It damages a person, and no amount of therapy can take away the fact that that individual's life was irrevocably changed - because of abuse. And if you trust someone enough to confide in them... and they do nothing? You lose your ability to trust. For them, it's either sexual perversion/gratification, a power-trip, or a combination. For those of us who have survived it? Even if we go out of our way to prove that it's not affected us (which, of course it has), it's life-altering.

I'm so sorry, OP, I understand where you're coming from. My DM was abused by her uncle, as I said, not long after being taken to live with him and her aunt shortly after her mum died and she never saw her dad again, he died 3 months later. So I get why she didn't spit what was going on with my F. She said to us once when we were DC that she loved him more than us, and she never stopped him when he smacked us too hard (though she herself said she did).

Now she's broken; she absolutely believes my DSis and me, which has helped (though she always bursts into tears, which definitely doesn't). My F died 20 years ago and she always thought he was a loving husband and father, he brainwashed her. She's coming through it; we visited her parents' grave and she said she wanted to be buried there under her maiden name. Would she have believed us at the time? We'll never know.

But if you report it to SS, they're duty bound to investigate, so no one is going to disbelieve you. It isn't about you, it's about these children and helping them. No 6 year old should be looking after her mum, who is in floods of tears.

You're not helpless now. You're an adult who knows that these children are not safe. You must make that call.

Have you had any therapy? If not, you really should; it really can help you come to terms with what happened.

Sorry, you did make the call. You can continue to support your friend and encourage her to get the help she needs.

Penny - sometimes I forget that you can't read a sarcastic tone of voice over the Internet. My bad. Of course I wasn't going to keep my nose out (see my last post and you might understand why)

Kirkman - did you read the post where I explained that I have alerted their nearest social/children's services? I haven't "let it go" (for a start because I'm nothing like Elsa), I have done what I can to help all of them. I haven't embellished - I have simply repeated what my friend told me. I have confessed to feeling awful for ignoring a niggle of unease in my gut when I met him for the first time - but I'm human. I am just as fallible as the next person. If my friend has ignored abuse, and if there is an abusive situation (because, as I have stated several times - there might not be!) between the 14 year old and her stepfather? Even though I know my friend is struggling with her own issues right now (seemingly the end of her marriage, possible emotional abuse from Husband #2, possible abuse by Husband #2 of her oldest child, and... as I have again stated several times... her shaky mental health), then I'm not entirely sure I could ever look at her again and not think of how she failed her own children in a multitude of ways. Having said that, she is (maybe was by now; I don't know) my oldest, best friend - we grew up together, I was MoH at her first wedding, she's godmother to both of my children - and I don't want her not to receive some additional, professional help and/or support with whatever the fuck is going on/she's going through. Up until the other night, I liked Husband #2 - as I said in my opening post, he's always seemed a nice, easy-going, friendly bloke. We all thought he made my friend happy - and if/when that all changed, she didn't feel able to talk to any of us. Not just me. Her parents. Her other old friends.

Actually, I am hoping with pretty much every fibre of my being right now, that my friend is simply having a breakdown and has made all of this up. That her 14 year old hasn't/isn't being abused (although all the indicators are there, sadly, that she is - but that might not mean Husband #2 is the abuser; it could be someone else), that there is no emotional abuse being levelled at any of them by him, even that her marriage isn't in difficulties. But I'm not there. I simply don't know.

However, given that I foolishly asked for guidance; a reassurance that I wasn't over-reacting, on a forum intended to support parents and... hm... oh; yes - advise them when they're at a junction and don't know which way to turnm or are uncertain if they're seeing things which simply aren't there, I ought to have known better. And some of you went "nope; that is really inappropriate - you're absolutely right that you need to step in and do something, Contrary13! Now, get to it!" - and that was greatly appreciated, because I didn't feel so completely out of my depth. Others of you have called me insane. Accused me, despite knowing from my posts above that I am a survivor of childhood sexual/emotional abuse, of abandoning a child to such a fate and blithely turning the other way. If I were going to do that - I wouldn't have posted. I would have been head-deep in my freezer defrosting it, rather than getting my friend to put in writing, so that I have concrete evidence, either way, that I'm not making this up if she tries to claim to a social worker or the police, or whoever, that I am. Her parents are already on their way down (I came home from the supermarket to discover two dogs having a mild disagreement about who gets to sit on the dog bed, and a very bemused 15 year old), so whatever happens now - it's up to the authorities to sort the wheat from the chaff and her parents to support my friend and/or her children. But I defy anyone to be placed in a situation by a friend, like this one, and not be shocked and wonder if maybe you're not over-reacting because of your own experience(s). Just if you are, maybe don't turn to others for support - deal with it alone and by yourself.

Just don't ignore your gut.

Well done OP.

Really. Well done.

You have one hundred per cent done the right thing.

I called the nearest Children's Services/Social Services to them, that I could find a number for. They are going to look into it. It took so long, because I don't live in Wales, and I had to use my son's Google-Fu to find their number. I have spoken to someone. It WILL be followed up on.

I realised you'd contacted social services but I wasn't sure if you'd explicitly ntild them this 14 yr old had said he's abusing ger, and that her mother is being excluded grom.hef room while he's in there with her for an hour at a time etc. I wasn't sure what the certainty of any investigation/contact would be .... I hope you can follow up.in this to make sure they definitely investigate and help this girl.

You have absolutely fine the right thing and you have not overreacted in the slightest. Your friend dues not sound capable of safe guarding her children from possible (sounds likely?) abuse at this time - unfortunately everything else comes second to that.

Very sorry to hear yourself and others posters' experiences .

You did the right thing. Unfortunately there are no winners here and you won’t get thanked, but you did the right thing under difficult circumstances. The child is the most vulnerable person here and hopefully everything will get better for all involved.

You need to report this to social services immediately. It's not for you to find out if he is actually abusing her daughter or not. You've been given enough information to suspect and if you suspect you report and let them do their jobs.

I missed your updates. You've absolutely done the right thing. First loyalty should always be to the innocent parties, the children.

But I defy anyone to be placed in a situation by a friend, like this one, and not be shocked and wonder if maybe you're not over-reacting because of your own experience(s

It is understandable - I haven't had such experiences and I would still think "could that really be happening?", "Am I runnung away with my imagination here?" Etc etc.

I think it's do beyond the boundaries of any well adjusted person that you struggle to believe someone would do it. That's one of the reasons so much sexual abuse has been disbelieved. There are still people who firmly believe an adult man who had access to an adult woman for sex could never/would never sexually abuse children or adolescents.

she's a lovely, kind, intelligent woman erm… no she isn't, she's an awful, cruel and stupid woman if she's turning a blind eye to her troubled daughter being abused by her step-father, and as that's what the girl has stated is happening it's likely that it is.

she's a lovely, kind, intelligent woman

erm… no she isn't, she's an awful, cruel and stupid woman if she's turning a blind eye to her troubled daughter being abused by her step-father, and as that's what the girl has stated is happening it's likely that it is.

Yes, I'm sorry to say that you need to accept the truth about your friend, OP. A mother's responsibility is to protect her DDs not ignore it when they disclose that someone is abusing them and allow it to go on whilst she's crying her eyes out and expecting her 6 year old DD to comfort her.

I know she's your friend, but it sounds like she's too damaged right now to care about her DC and needs to face up to this.

You've done the right thing.

@contrary13 I apologise OP, I didn't realise you were being sarcastic.

You've absolutely done the right thing. Always better to be safe than sorry, lets hope they can get help.

I’m concerned for both of the children. It should NOT be a 6-year-old’s job to ‘comfort’ the parent. Ever.

I’m concerned for both of the children. It should NOT be a 6-year-old’s job to ‘comfort’ the parent. Ever.

Exactly. I'm struggling with everything I went through at the moment, and mentally fragile, but when my DD2 (7) comes into our bedroom having had a nightmare, and wants a cuddle, I hold her close to me until she's settled and gone to sleep. I do my crying when she's at school or asleep. It isn't her responsibility to make things right for me.

There's a 9 year old boy (my godson) in the mix, too. Whilst all of this was going on? He'd plugged himself into the X-Box and his noise-cancelling headphones - and was the one assaulted by an upset 14 year old the following morning.

Friend's Mum has called this morning to let me know that Friend is in hospital, Husband #1 is aware, and she and Friend's Dad have the two younger children in their care (the 14 year old is in her Dad's care). I was worried that although I'd reported possible sexual assault of a child to the relevant authorities, it wouldn't be followed up on. But it has been. Now, I guess, it's up to them to figure out if Friend has made it all up, or Husband #2 has abused her daughter. Either way, I think she may have lost custody of all three of her children for a long time. I feel like shit - but this isn't about me; it's about protecting 3 innocents.

And, just for the record, Husband #2 has no family, which is why Friend's parents (who are determined to protect their grandchildren and help their daughter, apparently in that order) have temporary custody of the 9 and 6 year old. I don't know whether that means Friend's parents will end up staying there for a while (which means I have their dog for an extended stay, which is fine), or if they'll bring the children back here. I'm hoping they'll keep the children where their schools are, to be honest. Less disruption those poor kids have to suffer, the better. But that's not up to me.

Husband #1 was made aware, according to Friend's mum, when a police officer rang to arrange a soft interview with the 14 year old. I assume that's procedure. He's allowing access to her, so whatever is going on, hopefully professionally trained/prepared people will get to the bottom of it.

Friend may have imagined it all. We don't know. She's being assessed in hospital concerning her own MH right now. I don't know what happened to Husband #2 - he wasn't actually mentioned during the "the kids are okay, how is my dog?" conversation this morning whilst I was trying to juggle my own life.

Mittens - you're doing the right thing. My 15 and 23 year olds have no clue as to the extent of the abuse I suffered (sexual abuse at 7 led me straight to an abusive relationship as a teenager... which created my oldest child). They won't, if I have any say in the matter. Apart from my concerns about the oldest, I was also incredibly concerned about the youngest. But I'm also horrified that no one - including their teachers - put 2 and 2 together and went "erm...?!" about the whole thing.

They're safe now - all three children and friend. That's what matters, surely? And what happens next is beyond my remit. And, y'know, my own abuse ought to have trained me to feel guilt about reporting this - but I'm not going to. Instead, I am going to hope that those children (and my friend) get the help that they need, and can develop healthy relationships as they move through life.

And I'll look after Friend's Parents dog for as long as needs be (he was Husband #2's dog, incidentally, but was "too much" for him/Friend to take care of - so Friend asked her parents to have him. He's flourished since being in her parents' care - he's like a different dog.)

Your posts are very long and complicated. Most if the information in in them is irrelevant
The important bit is you think a man may be abusing his 14 year old stepdaughter and her mother is ignoring it. You say you have reported it and alerted the Granparents, if so then you’ve done the most important thing. If you keep trying to get your friend to recognise what’s going on she will shut you out and her daughter will have 1 less person to help her
Make sure the report is taken seriously and followed up

Hang on, skipping over the ignoring of the very likely fact this child is being abused. You say her mother is jealous of how close the 14 yo and the step father have become, yet you say the 14 year old hates him and wants him out of the house .

@Hoppinggreen I interpreted it as the friend's DD used to be close to her stepfather and there has been a change. That figures. As I said, I was abused by my F and others from an early age. It was at the age of 13/14 that something inside me snapped and I started avoiding him and deliberately not sitting next to him. My DM saw this but interpreted it as me being unkind to him and told me off for making me sad.

When I was in my last teens, we had screaming rows.

Imina:-

"You say her mother is jealous of how close the 14 yo and the step father have become, yet you say the 14 year old hates him and wants him out of the house confused."

They were close, as far as I knew, whilst she was the ages her younger siblings are now. The first I knew about this no longer being the case (ie, the comments about hate, etc.) were the other night. It's not like I see them every day and could monitor this with my own eyes. There's a good 200 miles (maybe even more) between us.

Mittens - For 30 years after my situation, if you'd asked anyone in my family who my "favourite uncle" was - they would have said it was my abuser. Appearances can be deceptive, and people see/comprehend only what they want to. I avoided my uncle like he had the plague from 7 onwards. My grandmother refused to leave him in a room alone with me (her way of "protecting" us both, I guess) from the age of 7 - even up until my own daughter was 2 and we were all gathered for my step-grandparents funeral. She wouldn't leave me, as a then 22 year old, alone in the room with him - and neither of us would let my daughter near him. No one questioned it. They just got on with their lives. "Nothing to see here, folks!", sort of a thing.

Yes, my DSis and I would have been said to be 'Daddy's girls' but I started to really experience discomfort at age 7. The problem for us was that he also smacked us very hard, so standing up to him wasn't possible until I turned 13/14, which is why I was able to avoid him then.

But definitely, your friend being jealous of her DD's closeness to her DH is also a sign that she's lost sight of the fact that a mother is supposed to keep her DC safe, not see them as rivals.

What a useless mother she is.

Why have you reported this to social services rather than the police? The child has all but said this man is raping her and his highly questionable behaviour corroborates that allegation. Social services is for a dirty home and missed school. Child raping is a matter for the police.

The problem is that the OP has heard it second hand, and her friend would probably deny it. The 14 year old has learning difficulties and will very likely clam up. So I don't think there would be grounded for the police to arrest him. Even if they did they'd have to release him on police bail. (I know too much about this from the police investigation into my historical abuse.). And unfortunately, his wife will stay with him, most likely.

Whereas SS can act, as they don't have to have enough evidence for the CPS to charge an offender. A sexual abuse allegation is always acted on immediately by SS; they can place the children in foster care whilst they investigate and they will involve the police; the girl will be interviewed by officers trained in this area.

SS and the police always work together on cases like this.

Well done for getting SS and her parents involved. Even without the abuse it sounds like a toxic,volatile environment which can be very detrimental to the children. They need to be safe and have a stable home.

A lot of posters seem to think the 14 yo has said she has been abused by her step father. Is that actually the case or did you mean that her behaviour and change in attitude point to being abused?

She did say so to her mum, who told the OP. Her mum ignored it, though, and her H shut himself in the bedroom of her DD for an hour whilst her mum was in the garden, crying her eyes out, with her 6 year old DD comforting her.

It's definitely a case for SS, and they will remove the DC and place them in foster care whilst they investigate.