Re my husband and his mess

[Frazzled2207]

A bit of an Aibu but Don’t want to post in there!

Back story- when I first met dh I was really worried about the amount of clutter/mess in his house and if I could live with someone that thought that was ok. I then realised that his parents home was just the same. He then moved into my house and tbh was pretty good about tidying up etc
(I am not a neatness freak at all, I have plenty of clutter around the house but normally insist on having all floors at least clear!).
We then got married about bought our house jointly and by and large be has been good about tidying up clutter/mess in all but one of the rooms albeit with a prod here and there.

However. Husband works from home (office type job so not one that makes a mess!). He used to work in the Boxroom but once we were expecting baby no 2 we decided to spend a lot of OUR
Money on a loft conversion. That would be his (now much larger) office, ensuite, and the general agreement is that once kids are at high school one of them will get the loft and husband will probably be back in the boxroom but not for at least 4 years. We might actually move before then anyway but that's another thread.
Because it's so large the loft doubles as an office and also guest room. We've very rarely had overnight guests though partly because of the problem I am about to mention.

The room is a state. Stuff everywhere, bits of computers, Cds, books, goodness knows what. His whole family are terrible hoarders which is part of the problem.

When he first moved up there we sorted it all out together and it was all fine but that was 5 years ago and he's put virtually zero effort into keeping it clean and tidy. I dare not enter the bathroom but pretty sure it's never been cleaned, definitely not properly. I have hassled him and hassled him about tidying it up and he's always had some sort of excuse, no time is the usual one and he doesn't want to spend any more time in there than he does working (?). He otherwise can't explain his totally inability to to sort it out. I can't explain it but it really upsets me that part of OUR house is such a state and although it's mostly used by him it's OUR loft extension. I would love to have guests to stay occasionally but never invite them because I couldn't trust him to tidy it up first. I have made it clear how much it upsets me that he can't sort it out and the fact that he doesn't seem bothered upsets me more than the mess itself. He tries to argue that it's his room and I need not go up there if I don't like it. But I'd like to be able to invite guests as I said and also not be utterly disgusted on the occasion I take him a cup of tea like I did tonight. We've just had another argument about it and I can hear him stomping around doing a bit of tidying now but he won't get it properly sorted and even if it did he would have zero motivation to actually keep it reasonably clean and tidy. We had our last argument about it about 2 months ago and since then he has made an effort to start selling stuff on eBay and I've done a lot of post office trips with stuff he's sold but he's still done ZERO Effort to actually clean/tidy.

I am prepared to have arguments with my sons about keeping their room tidy but not a 42 year old man ffs.

To clarify I don't expect completely clear surfaces etc none of our house is like that. But a clear path from the door to the desk is surely not too much to ask?

Aibu to want him to tidy up his bloody stuff? And if Ianbu what can I do?

Moving back to he box room is not an option at present as it's currently my office (not as tidy as I'd like it to be but perfectly ok!). And the fact that the mess is right at the top of the house which I rarely have to visit is much better than having it on the floor with the other bedrooms.
I could probably do it myself or do it with him and I but why should I have to. And as others have said he will just revert to what is normal to him in time. Since his dad (major hoarder) died my long suffering DMil has managed to get rid of an awful lot of stuff tbf but her house is still a mess. It's clearly just ingrained as 'ok' in their heads.
I do think there is a mild mental health issue as well, he just can't get himself motivated to do a lot of things. I have asked him in the past about seeking help but he just won't. Not anytime soon because i have to say he is a terrific father to our kids but i worry that at some point it will be the mess or our marriage.
He doesn't NEED the vast majority of it, none of it is related to work which is all on the computer. But it's stuff like old CDs (he only uses spotify), books, bits of PC (which tbh he is slowly selling), various things that 'might come in use one day'. But what is most puzzling is his desk which (like his mums) is just covered in post it notes, chocolate wrappers, old postcards from 2003, random cables and coins, old mobile phones etc. I honestly don't understand how anyone can work like that but he clearly can, is pretty senior in his wfh job working for a major multinational.

If you cant stand a tip and you are with someone who lives in a tip ... you are always going to have to be overlooking it or cleaning up extra.

I think when you look back on life some of the things our mothers said to us are true, though, in our knowing better stance we took no notice, including:

*Possessiveness or jealousy (red flag)
*Smoking, drug taking, alcohol
*Lack of education
*Strange family background eg hoarding

Of course the exception proves the rule

@Bluntness100
I think what you suggest is best, I have little faith that he would keep it up but at least if I made it clear that I expected him to do it, if he agreed (?) then at least I could refer back to that agreement.
He would not be happy at all about having the cleaner up there but I could give him a grace period before I sent her up the stairs. As it stands she would run a mile and never come anywhere near the house again!

Is pretty senior in his job working for a major multinational
All his effort goes into his public persona, he invests in in himself as a professional person, presumably in his professional role he has underlings to deal with menial tasks, I would suggest that's why he doesn't do any tidying at home... he thinks that the underlings should deal with these menial tasks

@Hepsibar
Yes you are right. I think it will boil down long term into either me accepting I will have to do it or just overlooking it. Which i have managed to do for quite some time by just not going up there if I can help it.

@Onthemaintrunkline
yes he knows exactly how upset this makes me. Tears on several occasions. And I've said to him that knowing it upsets me so much yet doing nothing makes me more angry than the mess itself.

My dad is a hoarder and I have tenancies though it's contained to cupboards etc whereas my dad has years worth of stuff in his house to the point rooms are now unusable. It is a psychological issue. However my dad is now 85 and not physically well enough to sort it out and won't let us either through shame even though he knows we will be the ones to sort it when he's passed. For him it's linked back to loss in his childhood. It's a very sad situation 😞

My DHs office is disgusting. It was meant to be my dining room. I just close the door and refuse to go in there. Retro consoles and games. It's grim and he rarely opens the curtains.

I wfh and my desk is a state. I genuinely don’t feel I have the time to tidy it as part of my working day, as I have too much to do to spare the time. Then on weekends etc there are more important things to be done. And it seems like an overwhelming and time-consuming project involving the need for systems and filing and ... urgh.

The logical grown-up thing to do would be 20 minutes every day. But I don’t.

Really, help him sort it out one weekend. I would advise you accept some ‘clutter’ but get a system for storage (maybe partition off a bit with some IKEA shelves that you can store boxes behind) and then insist his working area-desk part of the room remains a clear enough surface for the cleaner, and the floor is clear. And she should do the bathroom!

Otherwise - swap offices with him. He gets the box room again, you get the loft. Minimal stuff in the box room office - desk, computer, bare minimum office supplies. The cleaner comes to clean his office religiously every week.

You use the loft as office/guest room and storage.

I can see how that could happen, DP has similar tendenacies. I keep it under control by saying it has to be tidy otherwise the cleaner complains. He was in once day when she came to clean and she's pretty outspoken and said to him "Ah! so you are the one with mucky desk eh?" he was mortified! ha ha I think helping him get on top of it is the only way!

How about he hires an office and you clear upstairs? Or swap offices with him and at least you would have a nice clean office with a clear guestroom

OH is the same.

When he moved into my (now our) house he brought with him 20 years of cds, dvds, books etc I have slowly been sending off to music magpie and what they don't want ends up at the tip. I don't keep things I don't need especially dvd and cds " in case" I want to watch/listen to them again. He hasn't even noticed or if he has he hasn't said anything lol!

Dh is a bit like this but not to that extent. I bascially went through the entire office and anything I didn't know what to do with I held up and he said what it was and I put it into a pile/drawer of that. He can decide if he needs it etc, but he couldn't do the organising part which I can. Teamwork.

He geniunely gets overwhelmed, but he let it get too big and then just couldn't deal. He has always been like this, it is the same with tools, he will get it out but then not put it back where it belonged, just put a pile of what he had used in the garage. Then by the time you go to find the tool you want, it isn't there and I have to go through piles and piles of things to find it.

But it is only those two areas that are affected. Every other room in the house is used by everyone else so it doesn't build up but it would if I let it.

I realised a long time ago that this was really his one annoying habit. In every other way the man is perfect, so I just help out, without judgement.

If your Dh worked in an office he would be told he needs to keep it tidy. I would have to tell him that either we worked together on it or he would find I did it by myself.

DH is similar.
Our son has just got an ADHD diagnosis.
I think they have similar traits.
They both need some support and some pushing to keep on top of stuff.

All useful POV thank you.
We've had a no arguing chat about it just now to clear the air. Have agreed that we will try and sort it out between us a bit this weekend and I will help where I can with tip runs, eBaying etc. But once sorted it's his responsibility to keep it up. He gets that but won't commit (unsurprisingly). But has committed to cleaning the bathroom before cleaner next comes which is a big win. I've said that if he doesn't then I am sending her up there next week and he knows that I mean it and he really can't stand the cleaner going through his stuff.
He says he does feel overwhelmed with all the things he has to do generally and I get that, his job is v demanding but at least well paid. He also has to fit in school governor, allotment, exercise, kids, socialising, hobby, general chores and does all the fixing/diy etc around the (old) house. I do most of the general chores/school stuff but then again I work p-t so that's reasonable IMO.

He takes on board that if we get it sorted together for now then keeping it tidy-ish on an ongoing basis ought to be less time consuming and less of a chore. In theory anyway.
Who knows what will happen long term but am pleased we have a bit of a plan for now.

I'd take the 'treat like a toddler' approach. Next time he gives you a bit of eBay to post, praise him to the hilt for how well he has done in clearing stuff and intimate you're thinking of inviting (named) friends for Easter so will be sending the cleaner up in February/towards the end of February to get the bedroom side of things spick and span.
And agree with @NoSquirrels, sort out a room divider type storage, (IKEA Kallax with boxes?) so he can hide his clutter behind/in it.

@TreeClimbingCat
That's very helpful and positive thank you. Definite similarities between them I think.
He is a very good husband and father in almost all other respects.

I honestly think he CAN'T do it. Has he ever actually sorted and tidied something up before? Moving into your house sounds like he just moved some stuff in and tossed other things out, not the same.

I suggest you help him, but make sure HE is doing the work. Start with a small area, such as a cupboard, and tackle a shelf at a time. Direct him, but make sure HE does it. He is to learn how to do it. And you might have to accept it will get a bit worse before it gets better.

He has to learn how to do it, and also learn (emotionally) that it can be done in bits, and that it isn't this overwhelmingly massive job that it currently seems like.

Something like the basic - throw 5 things into the bin. Find 5 things that are too good to throw out but could be given to a charity shop/can be recycled.

Get a box for all cables because if he has lots of computing bits, you will have no idea which cables you need until the end.

I'm feeling sorry for your husband. Please consider swapping offices with him at let him have the box room. Surely the new upstairs would be a nicer office got you. The small size of the box room would keep things under some control, I would think. Make him keep the door shut so you and the cleaner can see the mess.

How do you arrange your finances?

For example, if you have an account for joint Bill's then you each get £X per month in your own accounts as personal spends, explain to him that you will be hiring a de-clutterer plus a cleaner to come and sort his room once a week and it will come out of his spends.

If it means you need to cancel Sky Sports/ give up his gym membership/stop going to the pub to afford that then so be it.

If it doesn't affect him he will carry on as is.

I empathise OP. My husband seems to be a magnet for exactly the stuff you describe. He uses the loft room as his office and there is no way I would want the cleaner going up there. He says it's his space and thats it. His desk is vile. I hate it. Fortunately it doesn't double as a spare room but can only imagine my frustration if it did. He also leaves bits throughout the rest of the house along with my children and it drives me nuts. We now have a box that I can dump their stuff in and a tidy up time after dinner that we all join in with - put music on and a timer etc.

Sounds a good idea to tackle it together and maybe future interventions before it gets too bad again? I suspect you are fighting a losing battle keeping it to your standards so some longer term compromise would be helpful.

Sounds like my OHs office I walk in with the hoover, hoover the strip of carpet I can see, open the window to let some air in , empty his waste paper basket and retreat, then I shut the door, he is tidy round the rest of the house so to me if he wants to work in a pig sty that's his prerogative and ive given up cleaning it tidying it and him making a mess again,

He sounds like a hoarder, which is why he is does not mind that it so upsets you. Hoarders have a huge emotional investment in their stuff and he may feel he is more upset than you are about the threat to his hoard. This does not mean that is does not need sorting - it really does in a family home, and the children of hoarders don't need the encouragement of seeing dad at it. Just saying don't feel bad that he does not take on board your distress in this instance.

Hoarders have a huge emotional investment in their stuff and he may feel he is more upset than you are about the threat to his hoard
this man manages to function in a high powered job, surely he can rationalise what's going on here and see that he's being unfair?