Very very long - whether to pursue this relationship.

[bougainvillaeax]

This is far too long - two posts long - so no worries if it will be not read but I just need it out of my mind and on paper and if anyone can skim or get through it any help would be greatly appreciated. My main questions are summarised in bold at the end of the second post but also bolded in this one.

In brief I am in my thirties and have not been in a relationship before/do not have experience in the bedroom etc so regarding both parts, don't know how to interpret the man's behaviour. On a thread I posted in 90 days a few months ago that I will mention further down, a couple of people thought I had ASD so bear that in mind as a possibility if there is something different about the way I am writing this, but equally maybe I am not writing differently from most other people.

There are a few things I don’t understand. I have been going over this in my head for so long I almost feel disassociated from it. Basically I have known this man about a year and there is a lot of conflicting info and I am confused.

He is early to mid forties.

Earlier thread - he works at a kind of tourism institution I frequented as a visitor. He would heavily flirt with me and in seemingly a meaningful way, divulging all his self criticisms, biography, fears, achievements etc. He also was nervous around me. He also did a few weird things - if I said something objectively neutral he would immediately interpret it as criticism and I would get this look that would kind of shut me down talking or giving opinions, so towards the end of us interacting I was pretty much watching myself to make sure I said agreeable things. Through all this it was clear he was romantically interested in me but after suggesting we continue to chat after the institution closed one evening which I couldn’t agree to because of where I had to be that night, he never asked me out. In the end I gave him my email address and he didn’t contact me, which is when I posted the thread in relationships about 8 months ago, I will link at the bottom of this post.

I returned about a month later and things got weird. I posted in 90 days about this, about 6 months ago, and still have a copy of my original post but not the rest of the thread. He works day shift with lots of people around and rarely nights with just one other person. Firstly there was one incident where I was explaining something to his coworker who I know - something detailed about land deeds that was taking me a couple of minutes to explain - he literally just cut in, like an embarrassed parent, and summarised (wrongly and in a facile incorrect way and a contemptuous voice) what I was saying with ‘she means ’ - I pretended he was right and it was ok but it sort of shocked me as people don’t speak to me like that. After the night shift had ended, to be brief, he started off saying he didn't email me because he had very recently got out of a relationship through work and absolutely would not consider risking his job. I asked what the previous six months had been about and he said, thats just my outgoing personality that you misinterpreted. I was clearly baffled and it eventually emerged he was recording the conversation, because - I’m close friends with a woman higher up in the institution than he is, and he thought I had been sent by her and other women in the institution to set him up and get him fired, that evening. when he established this was not the case, he said that i’d once observed he was cynical, and he was cynical about relationships as well as everything else, but when I suggested we meet to have a conversation about it he gave me his email address - I said look I won't email you if you don't want me to and he told me, if I trusted him and knew him like I said I did, I would email him. I posted in 90 days something like ‘help me understand this man’ and the general consensus was WTF was wrong with me, I needed help understanding myself and why I would put up with this, that is also where two or three people thought I might have ASD.

I didn't email him, but I returned to the institution a couple of weeks later again for a night event. I didn't know he would be there but if I am honest was half hoping he would be. I ended up going for a drink with him and his friend who is his colleague somewhere else and happened to be visiting, and there, he was flirting with the waitress, linking random events conspiratorially (my friend quit the institution for totally unrelated reasons and he though this had something to do with something else that’d happened), he told a story about a woman in the place he works with the friend we were having a drink with, who asked him to move out of a room so she could show some VIPs her work and he talked about writing an article publicising the artists but taking pleasure leaving her out as revenge, he said about her ‘fuck you bitch’ when telling the story; he talked with a kind of reverence about his sister, talking about how she is gay and hates men, and is the scientist in the family (he was sort of showing off about her job) so he can’t compete but will outdo her by having children, and that he was ‘looking for a womb’, at which point his friend asked ‘is that why you go on all these dates’. The men had had two beers each and I had a 1.99 lemonade, and when the waitress came round at the end from the silence it was clear we were splitting the bill, so I paid for my lemonade and then he asked his friend to pay for his beers as he was late making rent. As we left, he said women are manipulators, I said do you think I am a manipulator, he said no, I think I said something that vaguely challenged him then he said he did not want to risk pursuing anything with me as he was involved in a ‘major high profile human rights court case against a former employer’ (the implication I guess being we’d met through the institution and that wouldn't reflect well on him). I just left.

I was not emotionally over it but my head was over it at this point. A couple of weeks later, very randomly, I met someone the night before who also works at this place and gave me the opportunity to attend the only thing I hadn’t yet been able to attend at this place, which happens very late at night after most other events had wrapped up. I really love the institution and know i’d never get the chance again so agreed in principle, knowing I could more or less avoid the part he was working in. I will say I knew he had a shift that night as he’d said the last time I saw him. I turned up and had a great night, but by chance he saw me coming in, and I was all dressed up (first time he would have seen me like that) as I came straight from an important event. I did not go over to his area, but after he had finished he came and found me talking to my friends, and kept coming to talk to me even though I tried to end the conversation a few times and would walk away from him each time. He even said ‘I enjoyed that drink we had last week’ (!) eventually he left because he had to get public transport as his car had broken down, and I just decided to move on and the next week moved hundreds of miles away and more or less processed it and got over it.

At this point I found out from my friend that she thinks he had got fired from a previous job five years ago for I think ‘an inappropriate relationship’. We know the person had the same unusual first name as him, and also that he used to work there, but can’t be sure about that. (This isn’t the employer he’s suing).

Three months later I had to be back in the original town for just one day. For whatever reason, I ended up emailing him and we met up that evening and had dinner and spent the night. Coincidentally I found out from him that evening that the week prior he had contacted my friend, who he used to work with (and suspected of the conspiracy!) and told her to tell me to email him, but I hadn't been in contact with her that week. So, during dinner, there were a lot of things I did like as I was able to properly talk about myself for the first time since knowing him, but a couple of things I didn’t like; I was mentioning height as it pertained to how people think about themselves with reference to a historical figure, and separately mentioned wanting to visit an industrial town for research reasons, and, and he is on the short side for a male in his country, he said ‘why don’t you go to [that town], then you can hang out with all these construction workers, all these nice tall construction workers, and you can go out with them’, said kind of viciously. I was kind of surprised as I am also short and don't give it a second thought, so just brushed it aside. One other thing I wasn’t sure about was in the booth he was like mid way round our semicircular booth with just us in it and I was closer to one side, and three times he told me to get up so he could use the loo, but he could have left the booth the other side it would have been more or less the same distance. Of course that meant every time he came back I had to slide to the end and stand up once again to let him back in. The last time this happened he slid in and brushed ‘himself’ against the back of me, my bottom, if you know what I mean, as he went into the booth, and simultaneously gave me this deep invasive smile like he has done (the smile part) a couple of times before. I have to place this into context as though I am in my thirties I have not really been out with anyone and though I have kissed people have not done much more so I don't know what is normal. It might have been my fault as after I found out he had contacted my friend to try and get me to contact him (he claims he lost my email address), I became more comfortable in the situation and my knee was occasionally touching his of my own volition before he left the booth the last time, or maybe I was standing in such a way that he didn't have room to get in and he thought I meant him to do that. He insisted on paying for the meal, which I know was difficult for him as he literally lives on the breadline.
The other thing that happened was he revealed he has a tumour in his brain that he was diagnosed with a few years ago, and another tumour was removed from elsewhere. I think it is stable although he had treatment to shrink the one in the brain. He also told me about this big court case and he is suing an old employer.

He asked me if I wanted to go back to his house, he asked me before he came back into the booth that last time, but I had said yes, and did feel ok about that still. It sounds naive but I thought we might keep talking. I knew something else might be on the cards but in retrospect it was hard to quantify what that would be if such a thing hasn’t happened before. Anyway, he wanted me to follow his car with my car and was a little put out that I wanted to use my sat nav but anyway I got there by myself. He showed me around the place and showed me some of his artistic work in the spare room. He started talking nervously about the artistic meaning of his work but when I crouched down to get a closer look at it he told me ‘that’s enough critical analysis’ and I felt I had to stand up and we left the room. He made a point of telling me he was locking the door, and I joked was that to keep me from getting out or to stop other people getting in, but it all felt like kind of a rehearsed routine in retrospect; he had his dumbbells out in the living room which seemed staged but I don't know. Because of something I asked him he ended up telling me his dad was an alcoholic who was jealous of him since childhood and never kind to him, and his father used to destroy the house, so he bulked up as a teenager to restrain his father, and he hadn’t had contact with him in a decade. I said that’s got to do a person some damage and he said yes, it made him emotionally unavailable enough to record a conversation, referring to that time. I asked him about his other artistic work, not just his ‘best’ stuff that he showed me, which was to the right of the sofa, and he refused to show me any of it and said he was tired of discussing it. Anyway he kissed me on the sofa, and this is where I am a little confused too and possibly tmi. As it was my first sexual experience beyond kissing, I am not sure what is normal etc. I guess the word is french kissing, his tongue was in my mouth a lot almost immediately and quite deep and strong, and he used his hands a lot, so was squeezing me a lot all over. I have to admit I had a moment - it was very quick, like seconds, from him starting to kiss me to being on top of me - where I suddenly realised how big and strong he was (he is not short relative to me) and I thought ‘I’m in real trouble’ and had the thought he was going to rape me because he was escalating things so quickly and was so strong, but when I stopped things a couple of times and made a half hearted joke about ‘are these your moves’ he was quite happy to pause, but as time went on I supposed I became turned on by what he was doing, and this is where I am confused: I am not sure whether it was him who was actually turning me on or what he was doing, if that makes any sense at all? The thing that unnerved me a bit is he never seemed in the least out of control, or out of breath - he was his same very composed self at all points throughout. At one point when we were taking a pause, he told me he hadn’t had sex in 6 years since his last relationship ended, when I asked why, he said because it wasn’t an important thing to prioritise after he recovered from his tumour treatment 5 years ago. I told him I hadn't done it before, and he said because I was leaving tomorrow it wasn’t a good idea, and I said I agreed. I asked him about his friend saying he went on all these dates, but he said because he was ‘ill and wanted kids, he was kind of choosy’. Because he was squeezing quite hard and also (tmi) smacking, I asked him (genuinely) if he was a sadist but he found that funny and said of course not. He asked why and I said it was because he was strong, he said ‘you’re weak’ quite defensively. Anyway like I say this is tmI but he lifted my top up and did stuff, then put it back down, at this point I was sitting on his lap, but somehow we got to him lying off to the side of me on the sofa again and I said something about preferring him to be on top of me, and he said well he would like to take my top off, and it sounds silly but because he had already lifted it up, I didn’t feel I could say no right at that point so I took it off. Also he told me to take his shirt off, he just kind of told me, so I did. I noticed something on his shirt was also written on a piece of art in the room, and he was really pleased about that, the fact that I'd noticed, but it felt almost like a parent being pleased, and like I had passed some kind of test.

Contd in next post:

I sincerely hope Mumsnet doesn't remove this thread but it really is getting darker and darker.

Dig deeper in to your own self. Don't waste energy figuring him out is what I mean.

He sounds like a bit of an arse but I have to be honest, you sound incredibly vulnerable.

Which is a terrible combination.

It would serve him and destroy and erode OP.

Get out! Get out! Get out!this will only end in tears - and will be worse the longer you stay involved. He is telling you an incredible tale of woe, And playing the hard to understand artist game. Yet you heard he dates. A lot? He sounds like he is totally stringing you along. No way should you feel frightened by his strength. Please read Lundy Bancroft and look up the freedom programme. And do not call him. And listen to the mns who have experienced men like this and are giving good advice.
He is an utter creep.

*I meant to add, OP... that I spent a great many of my younger years repeating familial patterns and forming emotionally abusive romantic attachments that became physically abusive in some cases. They are not fixable. You can’t fix other people. I ended up changing my patterns and have a really stable relationship now. My kids have a secure and safe family with people who are nice to each other. It’s very different to the way I was brought up, but it’s a very nice way to exist!

Well done @justilou1 - you're proof it can be done .

OP, what you said upthread about wanting ro run him a bubble bath and try to turn him into the 'nice guy' you've seen glimpses of. I spent nearly all my twenties and half my thirties with an abusive man trying to do just that. I very nearly paid with my life.

This is why I keep recommending the Lundy Bancroft book: one of the key messages is that women like you and I (because of our own trauma) are convinced there's a 'nice guy' trapped inside and we think that facet to his personality is the 'real him'. We think the unpleasant side of him is a 'false self' that we can heal him from and get rid of.

Lundy Bancroft has spent his career working with abusive men and he has news for us: the unpleasant, dangerous man is the real him. Sorry. The 'nice guy' is the act - that's why we only ever see brief glimpses of him: it's an exhausting act for them to keep up - they just need to do it enough to keep the tiniest spark of hope alive in us and we're hooked. Whereas a non-traumatised woman would rightly recognise straight away that he's a dangerous arsehole and run a mile.

There are various red flags for me here too - the fact that one minute he's charming and kind the next he's hostile and rude is a real no-no. It's a classic abusive technique to keep women confused and emotionally disorientated. It's called 'gaslighting'. There a lot of useful stuff about it on the net - look it up.

The fact that he calls women 'manipulative' shows he's got some anger issues. The fact that he at times appears to cross-boundaries shows a lack of respect. He got fired from a previous job for an inappropriate relationship.....

I honestly think that he is a nasty piece of work. I appreciate that it must feel very overwhelming because it was your first sexual experience - but this is not a man you want to build a relationship with. He'll destroy your self-esteem piece by piece. Walk away, OP...

OP, I agree with everyone who’s said this is a deeply damaging and potentially dangerous situation, and that you should seek help and never get in contact with this man again. Can I just ask, though — am I right in thinking you and he live in different countries? He works at a tourist institution in one country, you live in another, and you only meet him when you travel there for events?

Jesus wept - That’s 15 minutes of my life I’m never getting back.

Just stop giving this headspace and stop talking to him. There is really no need to write pages and pages on the internet about this. It’s not helping you. End and move on, think about something, anything else.

Focus on what you DON'T LIKE about him.

If there's more of that stuff than there is about what you like, really, genuinely enjoy about his company, then, chuck him.

The stuff you don't like will never, ever go away - you just have to accept it, and find a way to live with it if you are in a LTR.

Clearly, accepting the negative stuff this eejit has to offer would be an act of self harm.

Think about yourself and what you want, there's loads of great advice on this thread. It'll do you good to give yourself time to consider what you actually want from a partner.

OP I do hope you'll listen to everyone and leave this guy!

Yes to what @RuffleCrow said. You can see the two sides to his personae - but you want to believe that the good one is the real one. It’s not. It’s really not.

Sorry OP.

Yes I have loads of resources I can share with you.

The trauma project is excellent.
I would read into complex PTSD as a pp has said.
Look at family scripts and attachment theory - particularly anxious avoidant.

I have had three major traumas in my life, I was raped at 11, I was in a physically abusive marriage and lost a baby. I have had to do a significant amount of psychotherapy, trauma therapy, EMDR and DBT. But the thing I've found most helpful, soothing and difference making is studying the shit out of human behaviour and psychology. So you can do this on your own if you have an enquiring and curious mind and the motivation to focus on yourself and understanding yourself. You do deserve to not feel this messy or anxious, you know that don't you? If you get to know and be able to recognise what YOU need your focus on this man's behaviour will dissipate. You'll realise that he's the red herring and actually you are anxious and trying to analyse yourself but are so disassociated from what you need your brain has the lens on him. Turn the lens on yourself and I guarantee you will feel better.

Aryan, just wanted to say, omg, hugs, and also what good advice.

Bancroft Lundy's book 'Why Does He Do That? docdro.id/py03
Is the link to the book off another kind mn Er. Not sure how you keep it as a link when you copy and paste though!

I logged in just to respond... If you're still in any contact with this man, my urgent advise is to leave and go 100% no contact .

The red flags are insane especially the physical gestures of gripping you and wanting to dominate you, pseudo strangle and smother you (and 'joke' about 'you're trapped' --unreal)

I had similar concerns about a neighbor (not personally involved and only 20% of what you describe) and feared he was a sociopath predator. Well 1.5 months ago he committed a brutal brutal murder-suicide on his family including pets.

Yet your guy sounds a lot more scary than my neighbor. This type gets off on manipulating and emotionally abusing you, and may be inclined to commit horrific violence on you. The deep confusion you feel is a symptom of major grooming via gaslighting. If I were you I'd move 1000 miles away.

Thank you @mamakena. In what ways do you think this guy is worse? I go in and out of clarity and today it’s not obvious to me. To be honest I had a good few days but am really struggling with it all this past day or two. I am glad you bumped the thread as I felt kind of ashamed to move it to the top of the board again - like there is something wrong with me or defective about me especially with some people taking the mick, which I know is a small minority and I shouldn’t take to heart, but it kind of echoes what my sister thinks of me, that I talk too much and am somewhat impaired. Also to be fair there seems to be a consensus that this is the case.

Like I say I am doing a heck of a lot better and honestly this stuff occupies my thoughts a good 40% less than it did but occasionally like today I am really struggling with it all. I haven’t contacted him, to be honest I haven’t checked my email since I posted the thread (I have more than 1 email address and don’t need to check that one) and I do go back and reread the thread to remind me why not to but I am really struggling. I read up a bit on the trauma bond (probably not enough) and when I reread this thread and read about that and sometimes see other threads with OPs who are further down the line with a person like this, I have great spells of clarity but then a few hours or a day later I feel very compelled inside it all again. And also didn’t want to post as I felt I’d be letting down all the people who have helped me, if I revealed that feeling.

Personally, I am normally over empathic if anything and terrified of offending people but this last couple of days something has just broken and I don’t care what anyone thinks of me all of a sudden. I almost feel quite cold, like I am a psychopath or something (I know that sounds really odd).

I thought of a few other things he did that bothered me and I thought it might help me to write them down seeing as I’m writing everything else down and there doesn’t seem anything to lose anymore by doing so as my pride is shot with everyone knowing what a hash I have made of things. That sounds self pitying but maybe it’s quite freeing.

As I say this stuff is occupying my thoughts a great deal less than it was before I made my thread, but me being me I make notes, and jotted some things down as and when I remembered, I’ve gone into more detail here as I started to write them out so don’t think I’m going over this in my head repeatedly or anything but wanted to note it down.

One I forgot is after I had taken my top off and was lying with my back flat on the sofa and he was lying on top of me but still wearing his t shirt (that was under his buttoned shirt), he put each of his hands behind each of my shoulders and really suddenly and unexpectedly in one quick move pulled me down on the couch a good foot or more so I was way down under his chest rather than being under his face, again he had that really invasive grin. My expression when he does those grins is just to look bemused, but maybe smile benignly, but I am still confused about why he did those smiles.

But one thing in his ‘favour’ that is honestly probably the main thing making me doubt myself is - his main profession was actually as a teacher for over a decade, and he has multiple qualifications to teach the whole age range. I feel surely such a person, a teacher, can’t be like this?? Like it implies that I am misreading the red flags and he should be given the benefit of the doubt? Or, if he now is like this, maybe the tumour in his brain is what made him odd more recently? Or, can even a teacher be a nightmare to work with (and likely a misogynist) like he is at all his current employments (always getting into arguments with management and filing grievances). And I know he has had at least one serious relationship so he can’t have been like this during it? So having been a teacher (I have a way of checking that shows he didn’t leave teaching under bad circumstances) and still working with kids, he can’t have any record of violence or have been unbalanced like this whilst teaching, or can he??? My older friend, the one who emailed me inappropriate things, when we talked a few months ago thought the reason this man kept doing the new qualifications for teaching in the different age ranges was because he was trying to reinvent himself and was blaming circumstances for his lack of success or something, also explaining why he then left teaching.
I have seen him present to a group of 5 year olds and he didn’t handle them well, I felt the kids were all on eggshells by the end as every time they all shouted out enthusiastically he told them they were scaring him and he acted scared, and by the end hardly any of them wanted to put their hand up.

Another thing is this idea I have that he’s this rare paragon of honesty. His smiles - you know not being able to add that up - was he thinking he was manipulating me? Pulling one over on me?Also that light voice like he used for ‘you’re trapped’. He just suddenly switches it on sometimes, a couple of times when we were getting to know each other. When he paid for dinner I said something to protest it, but his answer back was not quite the appropriate response to what I exactly said, which made me feel it was a rehearsed response he had said before/says on dates, or something. @Therebythedoor

There is also something about the way he stands that is somewhat off? He is very, very still and has this wide-legged stance. See my bouncer comment below.

During the night just before we tried to go to sleep we were lying on our sides looking at each other. I know he was trying to give me a loving look but I know he was trying but unable, or something like that. It was hollow and something didn’t add up. I wrote earlier I only got one tender kiss during the night - that too was somewhat rehearsed, it didn’t feel loving, but like what you should do in that part of the night, but executed to the best of his ability, so not with malice, but just not quite right somehow.

When we woke up I had been lying on his arm for a while and asked him am I making your arm go to sleep, he instantly turned it around and said, huffily and coldly, ‘way to say you don’t find my arm comfortable. That’s fine’. I was kind of stunned - I actually loved sleeping there but didn’t understand how he could have misinterpreted it so didn’t say anything and moved off his arm.

He made a joke in the morning about having stubble and having given me stubble rash, I joked and said it would be my trophy, he immediately got surly and defensive and said ‘great, I’m already your trophy’. (??!!)

He has said my name once the whole year I have known him, when he was telling me over dinner he wrote to my friend ‘tell B to email me’

He dresses like a teenager - I thought he was years younger than me when I met him and my friend who worked with him for a while was also shocked when I told her his age. Not sure what if anything this means. He also dresses quite intimidating, I once joked he could be mistaken for a bouncer. This is also something to do with his stance - you know how they stand outside a club with that posture as if they’re waiting for someone to hassle, with that cynical expression. That’s his default stance and face, when he’s not doing the invasive smile or charming light voice.

We have only walked together on one occasion, but he walked way faster than me and I had to scurry to keep up.

Once during the night he tried something that is probably like second base or something and very common, but being unfamiliar with it, it did hurt me so I told him and he immediately apologised and stopped. But, he tried it again the next morning, and when he wasn’t able to get to where he wanted due to my not being turned on enough or experienced enough, got rougher with his movements to try and accelerate me being turned on I guess, and he then tried that exact thing again, and it hurt so I told him, and he stopped again, but that physical pain lasted for a good week afterwards. What bothered me was when he was bringing my body over to his side of the bed to do this thing in the morning, I wasn’t sure what he was doing or what way he wanted me to turn, so I turned the wrong way a bit, but he just kind of moved me like a doll, not exactly impatiently, but in that manner, pulled me over.

During dinner he said for the second time (first time was when we were having a drink) that women are manipulators, he then rhetorically said ‘why do women wear make up’ as if that proved his point.

Something worried me and maybe nothing to worry about but he asked me what side of the bed i wanted and encouraged me to choose one side over the other because it was closer to the loo, but now I think I am actually being paranoid, but when he was humping me with the smile is there any chance he could have been filming it because i suppose if it was on tape it would have looked like he was doing more than that as his lower half was under the covers.

When he was taping me (voice) and was pretending he had no idea about our flirtation for the purposes of the tape, he was lying to my face, wasn’t he? so he is clearly capable of doing that. I remember having the thought I can never trust this person again because he can flip a switch so easily - he was so calm and collected (and convincing) telling me that and I don’t know why but I later told my female friend that something scared me about him that evening - I felt he had the capacity for physical violence, not that he would use it then and there but just that he had it in him, he just felt quite a menacing presence standing there, and I haven’t felt that before as normally I am actually very hyper vigilant and isolated so don’t get into situations like that.

@sh0na that is really insightful of you to notice that I do feel like it is a criticism that I would benefit from therapy - you don’t show weakness in my family at all and it feels like weakness. Despite the fact I can see how it would benefit other OPs of threads very clearly. I am greatly encouraged that you can see results in 8 sessions. I thought it would be more like two years. It sounds opposite to the thread but truthfully I find it impossible to trust people which is why I have let go of almost all of my friendships - it makes it all the more odd that I would let him so far in. (Which is why I would find it terribly hard to trust a therapist). Ironically my email he complained about was very out of the norm - I disclose the details of my life to no one (outside this thread!) yet he punished me for it.

@Aryaneedle thanks so much. I also realised when I posted it about being outside of my body, how odd it was and you noticing it means it reduced about 80% after you pointed it out. I do drift back there occasionally though. Is that the trauma project on facebook? I have bought a couple of books about CPTSD to be read on kindle, one is ‘from surviving to thriving’. One thing I wanted to know - even if it be via therapy but preferably via books - like I say although you wouldn’t know from my post, I really am thinking about it/him a huge amount less - and have those moments of clarity where I realise there is something not right about him. But can you explain to me how it would happen, the process, and @sh0na too - like, would I think about my sibling relationship, and you know you said you would now ‘get turned off by dynamics like the one you describe’ - is it literally having that intellectual recognition that you are replicating this trauma bond and eventually head begins to take over from ‘heart’ or whatever is pulling you towards it? And eventually even ‘heart’ is repulsed? @justilou1 that point at which your patterns are changed - is it just time, and introspection that leads to it? Is the tendency to choose the wrong person something that has to always be consciously kept in mind or does it melt away?

@Inanothertime do you mind telling me a little bit more about your brother. The idea that there is something about this man’s actions I can never hope to alter is like I say quite freeing. I suppose other traits. Or maybe something I wrote in this post echoes.

@Therebythedoor please see where I tagged you above - actually what you said was a big breakthrough moment for me, that the expressions don’t match up - it made me realise it has happened a few more times. Does this mean that he is a normal person who is trying to manipulate, or is it that there is something psychopathic about him

@75Renarde I can’t imagine such a normal relationship. Thanks so much for telling me about it. When I first met him thought he was kind and normal (actually my very first impression was that he was too self consciously trendy to know too much about his subject area!) but he grew on me, and I found him attractive on a normal basis. But as it/he got weirder and I stuck at it, I almost feel like I’ve done myself some damage by going this far with it and that I won’t be able to have a normal dynamic with someone now. It feels like I’ve done that amount of damage, honestly.

@RuffleCrow re the bubble bath - I’m glad i posted that now despite feeling foolish for doing so - your response helped me extinguish the imagery for a good bit. It is drifting back a little now. I read Lundy as well as the Pat Craven book when I was trying to figure out my sister. Thank you for the book recommendation, I read ‘toxic parents’ a few years ago. I didn’t realise the re-reading part! Sounds obvious - I just thought I had to read them once and that was it… clearly not!

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria sounds odd but.. what do normal healthy people want from partners? I don’t think I ever really wanted one before and now can’t even imagine it at all.

For the avoidance of all doubt - he would definitely be a misery to live with, and what would you say is the percentage chance he could be violent to me or a future child. I just need to know for the avoidance of all doubt.

I know that post sounds all doom and gloom but actually I think I’m generally doing a bit better - it’s on my mind really a good bit less and I've had like I say those moments of absolute clarity, and I’ve been able to get on with other things. You can imagine being over analytical I have actually written detailed notes for myself re every post :) it really helps so much to have the thread to come back to and reread.

Also - it bothers me hugely that I could be ghosting him - is there any other way out of that - or could I honestly fairly interpret that the question in his last email was rhetorical and he was giving me the brush off

Oh goodness. He is a dickhead! I don't necessarily agree with previous posters that he must be dangerous/sociopathic (although if this is what your instincts tell you, whether now or in the future, you must trust them) but he is, at best, a clumsy and inconsiderate shag, a social oaf and not at all nice to you.

I'm so glad that you find this thread helpful and that you are giving him less and less headspace. If by thinking it through and reflecting on the advice you're getting here you are finding the strength to keep your distance that's great.

Honestly, MANY men are MUCH nicer and not dickheads. Stay away from this one.

@Therebythedoorplease see where I tagged you above - actually what you said was a big breakthrough moment for me, that the expressions don’t match up - it made me realise it has happened a few more times. Does this mean that he is a normal person who is trying to manipulate, or is it that there is something psychopathic about him

I think you might be focussing on the wrong thing here. A 'normal' man who manipulates you is not necessarily a slightly less worse option than a psychopath. The benchmark should be a boyfriend or partner who doesn't employ manipulation at all! I don't think you should be pondering over that man's personality type, but rather focus on how his behaviour made you feel so that you are more alert to worrying behaviours in the future. Use this experience to bolster your 'sounding out' senses for future relationships. It's all a learning process. Likewise, don't focus on whether an ambiguous message from him is him ending things. There's no need; you're not pursuing anything with him so it's irrelevant really.

He's not a 'keeper' but a swerve job.

Thank you! The tumbleweed after my last post kind of worried me Honestly when I first posted I never envisaged having this type of clarity about the situation and indeed my own part in it. It does wax and wane though (the clarity!) I will say even after my last post I had a great deal of peace and was able to have a really productive few hours!

I thought of a couple more things. This really bothered my ego - I wear glasses and never take them off but wasn’t wearing them in bed. At one point he emerged from the loo and he had taken his contacts out and was wearing these thick glasses and said something self conscious about how he looked in them as he walked in the bedroom door, and I said of course you don’t need to worry as I can’t see you from here because of my own eyesight, and he said ‘you wear glasses?’ There was a pause and then he said ‘oh yeah!’ - it bothered me because he’s an artist and supposed to be visually perceptive but hadn’t seemed to notice!

The second minor thing was when we were having a drink with his friend and he was flirting with the waitress with smiles and intense looks: she was clearly uncomfortable with it and had painted a fixed smile on and was much more comfortable interacting with me.

Thank you @Therebythedoor , great point. I am worried because of what pp have pointed out about my childhood I may have passed up many promising interactions because they didn’t replicate the ‘trauma’ of my early attachments which is why this first experience comes relatively late in life, and indeed worry that I don’t know how to be attracted to someone who treats me normally or interpret what I am feeling with a kind person as attraction, if that makes any sense. I do feel good though about the fact that when i first met him there were many fewer red flags and so this was technically a somewhat healthy basis on which to form an initial attraction.

OP he sounds abusive and manipulative. I haven't read the second post, the first was enough. He doesn't seem to like women very much. I think you're attached to him because he reminds you of your family and you have very clear awareness of this.

I don't know anything about ASD, so I wouldn't be able to spot the signs. I can spot when someone is being abused, manipulated and taken advantage of though. You seem to have very little sexual experience but it seems as though he did respect your sexual boundaries, pausing or stopping when you seemed uncomfortable.

I would keep away from him. One piece of advice I can give is that when someone makes you obsess so much, they are unhealthy for you. People who are kind, decent and with the best of intentions towards you are not 'difficult' or anxiety inducing.

If you take anything away from this, remember how he makes you feel, with this obsessing and anxiety and keep away from people who make you feel like that.

OP in a nutshell, if someone does something that scares you or hurts you, and KNOWING this, they then do it again anyway, then that’s not a nice person. He did that to you in bed.

This has gone past your emotional or mental health. It doesn’t matter whether you are clever or worldly wise or innocent or shy or loving.
HE is the one who is to be feared, he’s weird and not nice. I would not date him even if he made me feel great in some ways, because he would make me feel bad in others. He scares me just reading about him. It is better to have no boyfriend than him.

Do not feel sorry for him. He brings it on himself by his own actions. He is not a child. He’s an experienced man of the world. He knows the consequences of his actions. And proceeds anyway. You cannot change him no matter how many loving cuddles or candle lit bubble baths you give him. He will not one day wake up loving you. From his behaviour he could even have an underdeveloped bit in his brain about pain/guilt etc the way serial killers do. That just cannot be changed.

You will not find a single person on here justifying his behaviour because we are more experienced in relationships and know he isn’t nice. You shouldn’t need to be afraid of anything he does. He shouldn’t need to remind himself how big and powerful he is. He should NEVER have his hand around your neck. I honestly can’t remember a boyfriend doing that to my neck. It’s not normal. In fact they said on one of these tv murder programmes that murderers start by doing things like that and then actually hurting a bit, then hurting a lot and then go on to murder their victims. Who have usually been told by all their friends to leave him but they don’t want to. As though they think he’s better than nobody. Or that he needs them or something else that’s nonsense.

Please just stay away from this man. There are plenty nice guys out there who will be running bubble baths FOR YOU! You have a lot of love to give and he doesn’t deserve it.