So Is Counselling Making Any Difference?

[Plurabelle]

A few months back, I told my husband that I felt we needed help from Relate.

Though we've been together for sometime - ups and downs, but okay a lot of the time - our relationship began to unravel when he retired. I think I'd wanted him to become more helpful around the house and more emotionally available. (He'd been doing a demanding job, while I'd been doing bits and pieces of work to fit in while caring for children and an elderly father in law.) I also felt that his retirement would free me to do more paid work, with the family essentially grown up and gone.

But my husband had been so focused on his own needs and wishes - wanting to reinvent himself as a businessman in a hobby business based in our house with me providing admin/IT/marketing support- that he simply assumed things would carry on as normal with my enabling him to do what he wanted to do, and me fitting myself in around the edges. He'd cook meals - to 'do his share' - but expect me to tell him what to cook and what to get from the shops and how to deal with any queries while assembling the food, and then forget to put half the things on the table.

I felt that I'd spend a certain amount of time talking to him about the kinds of changes I'd like and what I needed, and he would say, 'Oh yes, I'll do that'. And he'd spend a few days being more attentive, and then would go back to being his old self.

The counsellor has been quite astute though we've not had that many joint sessions - three joint ones, and a couple of individual ones. She has pinpointed that while he does care about me, his upbringing has made him very self-sufficient. He just charges around trying to get as much done as he possibly can and this leads to my feeling not listened to. (He sort of listens to me, but only half and resolves to make operational improvements, but these resolutions slide as soon as he gets distracted by something he's interested in.)

What he has been unhappy about is the lack of sex -which constitutes emotional intimacy. The combination of menopause and his self-absorption means that while I can still find him an interesting companion at times, I don't really want to open myself up to him because it's then very wounding when he just charges off and forgets everything I've said and thinks that emotional intimacy can be achieved by having a quick shag even though he's otherwise pretty unaware of what's going on with me.

Anyway we've had a couple of weeks where he's tried really hard. He's been attempting a kind of low-level intimacy - hand-holding etc. He's tried hard to remember what I've been doing and to ask me about it. When he's asked me questions he's mainly listened to the answers, rather than just drifting off to his own thoughts or interrupting. But somehow it's always my fault. I've not made things sufficiently clear in some way, and that's why he's misunderstood/'got hold of the wrong end of the stick.'

Almost I was beginning to feel he could change. But then one or two things - nothing urgent or crucial - means that things to do with his hobby business (which he's meant to be winding down) have taken a bit more of his attention. And suddenly we're back to square one. He's asking me the odd question, but forgetting everything I said.

On a day when I was really busy and tired and hungry and had been out at work I came home and, he presented me with a very small baked potato and asked me for advice on fillings and forgot to make any salad and wanted to know what to do for dressing because we were out of one kind of vinegar. (We have four other kinds in the cupboard.)

I tried to keep my cool. (One of the things is that is hard is that if I get angry or upset he gets very defensive and that makes everything worse.) I got up and made us some dessert because I was still hungry. We discussed what we'd do later on. He wanted to watch the Johnson/Corbyn debate. Because I was so tired and thought it would be depressing and predictable I said no I couldn't face it and I suggested Masterchef on the other channel. If he wanted to watch the debate, I'd see Masterchef on the iPad. He said, 'Well it doesn't matter that much really' or something along those lines. And then we had a long conversation agreeing about how the predictability of Masterchef is enjoyable, so it seemed he was happy to watch that. I wanted us to do something relaxing together after a day when he had been charging about. The meal hadn't been that relaxing or enjoyable

So just before 8 I switched the TV on, wandered off for a minute and found he'd changed the channel. 'But we're watching Masterchef, we agreed' I said.' But he - who didn't seem to have been listening at supper said he thought I'd come to watch Johnson and Corbyn with him.

I am sorry this such a very long posting. But I do feel that going to see the counsellor was my final throw of the dice. And it now seems to me that he is what he is. I can try and behave in a civilised way to him. I can try not to be destructively angry towards him. But the way in which he behaves frustrates me and this means that I retreat from him emotionally.

I have posted on AIBU in the past but people there have often been quite vicious, though others have said insightful things. I thought I would try here and see if the response was bit more considered. Really I'm trying to work things out in my head before the next counselling session. (She cancelled yesterday - presumably she's unwell or there are family problems.)

What did the counsellor think you needed to work on in counselling?

OP that sounds rubbish and I can understand why you're not happy.

It's not totally clear from your post what your question is! Will your husband change? None of us know that, but it sounds like probably not. So I guess it comes down to two choices - stay with him and accept that this is the relationship dynamic; or separate. And only you know which of those two options is more appealing.

But if you want to stay together is there anything you haven't tried? Joint hobbies? A shared project? Something that will help you connect as a couple and you'll feel mutually invested in.

I think the counsellor was saying is that what my partner wants/need out of the relationship is more physical connection. (Though to do that he needs to work at making me feel cared for.)

And that I need not to feel taken for granted. So that I need - paraphrasing here - evidence of that care. This could be him showing interest in what I do. It could be shown via practical things - ie. doing stuff around the house which shows that he is validating my need to feel supported on the domestic front.

I think one of the difficulties is that having sidelined my own independent working life, I am very low waged and as I am just over 5 years away from retirement, I don't feel there is a lot I can do to turn this round. My standard of living will undoubtedly be better if I stay. But I am not sure that he can behave in a way that will mean I can feel any kind of renewed desire for him. I don't think he's a bastard. He just is who he is and can't be anything different.

I think it's your expectations that have changed here. You've spent the whole of your marriage running around after your husband and whatever he wanted to do. You now expect him to miraculously change into someone entirely different. It seems as though he really is trying but is very set in his ways. It seems as though you've lost yourself within the marriage and you are now claiming your space but it's too late. You've enabled this and can't suddenly expect someone to anticipate your needs.

It sounds as though you two haven't communicated properly in years. Was there any discussion about what would happen when your husband retired? Or did you just expect him to know? If you both discussed it and you clearly set out your expectations, then I find it really strange he decided to set up a business without communicating that with you. You're not a partnership, you're two people living together, elbowing each other out of the way.

I wouldn't want to sleep with someone who doesn't listen to me or consider me either. Why would I? You really need to put your foot down here if the marriage is to continue. Your needs and wants are just as important and he's going to have to listen to you and respect your wishes if he wants to stay married. That is what is at stake. I would make that clear and be prepared to follow through.

That's interesting and to the point 12345.

I think my husband was working so hard up to retirement - he was successful in his field - that he didn't have much time to consider this and it's not something we discussed. I think I had vaguely talked to him about voluntary work of one kind or another that might use his skills but he didn't seem interested.

His hobby business was something that he just sort of announced. It fitted in with interests that he'd had when younger that had to be put on one side. He now acknowledges - this came out of of the counselling - that it was partly a reaction to his partners in the firm telling him that he was expected to retire. (He'd not really wanted to.) It was a kind of 'Sod you, if you don't want to be X then I'll become Y. He was inventing a new identity for himself to short circuit

I think because he was very good in the field he worked in, I expected that he would make a success of his new business idea and that it might provide an opportunity for me. In retrospect it seems to me that there was no proper planning, that he lacked some of the skills needed to make the new venture work - marketing, some kinds of admin, networking - , and was disinclined to take advice on this point and learn what it was he needed to do.

This is when our marriage started to unravel.

I had initially felt hopeful that counselling was making him really see the impact all this had on me. But I do think old habits are dying too hard. It is extremely hard to change. I suppose my sense had been that retirement does offer an opportunity to reflect on the past and become less driven - maybe blokes can even drop some of the kind of masculine persona they have to wear in the workplace.

Hi OP

I understand your frustration. You've spent your whole life giving and now want something back and that's fair. Also being listened to is a basic level of respect and i can see how it would be difficult to be intimate with someone who isn't respecting you.

But from his point of view, he has been living this way his whole life and presumably thought you were ok with it. It's not clear from your post but reads like you may have just expected these changes to happen without fully discussing it.

To me, it does sound like he is actually trying. I imagine it must be very very hard to break habits of a lifetime. Active listening is a skill and will take a lot of work and practice to master. He is going to relate (a lot of men on here seem to refuse). He is trying to be more affectionate. He is learning to cook. And it is a process - think back to when you started cooking, for me it wasnt instant and I had some disasters along the way and it took me a while to get portion sizes right etc. He is planning to downsize his business.

It will take time and work and patience on your part. It sounds like you are running out of patience and I'm not sure what the answer is. Do you think there is anything that he can do that would mean that you would be happy to be with him going forward?

I totally agree with 12345

Most people dont really inherently change who they are. What they want might change, how they are living their life might change but who they are won't. I think it was quite a known phenomenon for wive's to expect the focus to shift on their husbands retirement only to find something else (hobby etc) replaces the gap and actually nothing much changes. In the years where people didnt split i think the first years of retirement were often quite rough whilst a new equilibrium was achieved. Nowadays its a key point of reassessment

FWIW (probably not a lot) The TV thing could be him not listening but sometimes really easy to to think you have an agreement when actually youve both assumed the other agreed with you. I've done it before over text where i could have sworn something had been arranged one way, only when ive re read it from the opposite assumption ive found it reads equally easily the opposite way. You cant rewind a conversation and double check. Ironically it often happens in long standing relationships because you are more likely to short hand the communication (both in text and conversation)

and it's not something we discussed.

So at no point did you two sit down and discuss what would happen when he retired and the change in your roles. How was he then expected to know?

It seems as though you didn't make it clear what your expectations were upon his retirement. He carried on as usual, doing his own thing, expecting you to fit around him - and, why not? After all, that's what you've been doing your whole married life.

He's not psychic.

Also, give him responsibilities in the house and they remain his responsibilities. He's now responsible for shopping, cooking and meal planning for example. If someone had always planned the meals, cooked, shopped, I wouldn't know what I was doing either.

If, for the past thirty years, he's never had to think about making a meal because you've done it all, he is going to struggle when he suddenly has to do it. Most people would. Just as, if for the past thirty years, he'd always sorted out the finances and one day tells you to get on with it, you're going to struggle. That's perfectly natural. After a couple of months, you'd soon get the hang of it, I'm sure.

Don't help him out with the business, just let him get on with it. He can't set up a business without discussion and expect you to work for free. Tell him to employ someone.

Yes, I see what you're saying about the TV thing and shorthand Volcanion. But I had just gone on at such length about how depressing I find politics at moment - how much I hate the BBC coverage on both TV and Radio (he has Radio 4 on a lot) I simply cannot understand how he thought I wanted to watch the debate. A feature of our relationship is that I will say things time after time after time. And it still somehow doesn't sink in.

Re food, it's not as if there was an absolutely rigid him earner/me as SAHM division. He's actually a very competent cook when he makes an effort and would always cook at least once at the weekends. (As a single man he cooked for himself, he cooked for his children/my stepchildren after his earlier marriage ended and he was living on his own) He's got a range of dishes he can make and is quite capable of trying new ones, though this takes him longer.

It was just odd because for 20 years plus, there's been an understanding - partly because of the children - that meals contain fresh veg/greens/salad. So it's not enough to make spaghetti bolognese, you also make a side salad. It was therefore really weird that he suddenly produced these little baked potatoes with grated cheese and some chopped up smoked salmon. (He'd asked my advice because he always makes them with chives and then found because it's winter the chives in the pot outside aren't edible.) We also have this agreement that if I'm working till 5.30 he cooks unless he's doing something that means he'll be out of the house till later than that. He wasn't. So it had been a bit jarring that the day before he'd asked 'Would you like me to cook for you tomorrow?' (I mentally think well of course you're cooking, and this isn't something you're doing 'for me'.It's for us)

And then he produced this tiny little meal with my help and without any salad - he then threw salad stuff together at the last minute - and had clearly not checked in the morning to see if this was any lettuce.

If it had happened six months or a year back, it would have been par for the course but this is at a time when he is meant to be trying really hard to change because of having, supposedly, committed to the counselling.

i agree with the communication styles issue. I say something to my DP which I think conveys my wishes, but he interprets it as a question about his preference.

It sounds like you’ve assumed an agreement whereby he’s been prioritised, but now things have changed practically he’s not understanding how this might change, or even acknowledging that you’ve subsumed yourself for his benefit.

The food issue is infuriating because it feels so inept. Do you feel that a nice meal is an expression of love and care? Hence a small potato is a weak half-hearted offering.

Is there enough there to make you want to stay and invest in your joint future? Or is it time for change?

Also we did talk quite a bit about what his retirement meant for me. That he would keep more of an eye on my daughter who was then in sixth form. About the needs of his elderly father who was then alive, and who I had been taking to hospital appointments. About how his greater availability for them meant I'd have more time both for paid work and for an interest of mine that had been rather sidelined and which can generate a bit - not a lot - of money.

His 'business' went on for 5 years. I expected that after a year or so of trial and error he would learn how to run it more effectively - and gave him plenty of very sound advice, which he didn't take. What happened is that he started to develop new interest and enthusiasms, so the business was not nurtured properly. It did still however, because it was based in our home, disrupt my life considerably.

About eighteen months ago I told him I was no longer prepared to be a partner in it.

I may not always have communicated as clearly and constructively as I might have done - which of us does? But by God, I have tried.

'Our daughter' I should have said.

So he’s been self centred all his life, he does what he wants and you have to fit around it.

You had hoped that this might change just a little when he retired. You discussed this with him and he said “ yes yes “ but in fact nothing has changed.

He wants everything to continue as normal - you continue to earn money, do most of the housework and provide sex when he wants it, without him having to waste any time and energy having an actual relationship with you. More like a free housekeeper who also provides sex.

You don’t want to live like this anymore. For years, you had excused his behaviour as being created by his job, but now you realise it’s just him and who he is.

You are angry and bitterly disappointed, because you know deep down that he will never change.

You now see that he doesn’t care how you feel as long as you do what he wants and STFU.

Is that right ?

I think youre missing the point.

Counselling won't fundlementally change who a person is. It can give you new coping and communication strategies, but generally people are who they are.

Counselling can allow you to think about how you see a problem, it can help you look at something from the other persons perspective, it can help you decide how you feel about something or if its important to you. It can help you decide things that are unimportant to you and you want to let them go.

It cant mold your husband into the ideal man, or indeed any man other than the one he is. It can help you decide whether you want to live with that or not.

You are at a key point of reassessment. If you want to do something, you need to get on and do it. If you want to work more, work more. Either your DH will adapt or he wont. The same goes for the relationship.

I think there's something in that KristinaM but it also seems more complicated.

He appears quite gentle - not a macho type - and I believe he does care about me.

There is something I don't understand - something rigid and programmed and very much directed to 'self- which makes him behave like this while at the same time declaring very sincerely about how he wants to make me happy, that he'll go to counselling and 'do whatever it takes'

I don't think he is consciously lying or stringing me along - it's more as if there are two parts of him and they just do not connect.

I certainly have plenty of material for the next session with the counsellor.

And yes Volcanion the question is what do I do?

I suppose I am sick of the rows and of how my husband behaves if I am upset or angry. He is distressed but in a way that seems to make him more rigid, if that make sense. So I'm just in withdrawal mode right now - talking to him about functional necessary stuff. I don't want to sulk though and obviously I do have to speak to him about my disappointment at some stage before the next appointment.

Sorry I realise I didn’t answer your question.

Yes counselling is making a difference. It’s made you see things more clearly. That even though he says that he wants to meet your needs, his actions don’t back that up. Because he’s not willing to put in any effort, he just does the bare minimum to shut you up.

Perhaps you thought it was a communication issue, and that if he just heard and understood, he would act differently. But through the counselling you have seen thats wrong. It’s not that he doesn't understand, it’s that he doesn't care.

He doesn’t care that you are unhappy, as long as you still function.

You now know that he's not going to change. Why should he ? It’s all working out fine for him, he’s happy and if he can just get some more sex, everything will be perfect.

So now, through the counselling, you realise that your alternatives are more of the same for the rest of you life. Or leave.

And leaving after decades because he’s always been selfish but you over looked it before .........is hard to contemplate .

So you feel stuck.

Of course he wants you to be happy. Why wouldn’t he?

I want you to be happy too, I truly and sincerely want you to be happy. I’m not lying, I truly mean it.

But I’m not willing to make any changes in my life for you.

I think what I had thought is that my husband somehow couldn't listen to me, but that if I said this was so problematic that we had to go for counselling that a) it would make him realise how much I needed better quality attention and b) the presence of a third person would change the dynamic. It's as if we almost stop listening to the person who is always around, but that the insights from a counsellor really can encourage people to think again.

I don’t think he’s lying or stringing you along at all. I’m sure he sincerity believes that He’s changed. Because he’s going to counselling, holding your hand once in a while and putting a potato in the microwave.

You used to get 1% of his attention and energy and now you are getting 5%. He can see it’s a five fold increase and he’s bemused that he’s not getting his reward .

You expected, what, 20% and you feel short changed

He thinks that saying “ yeah yeah whatever , let’s talk about me now “ is listening to you.

You hoped for a real loving intimate connection.

There’s a chasm between your expectation. You want him to WANT to be with you and spend time with you.

He wants you to STFU ( in the nicest possible way ) and get on with functioning as normal so he can do what he wants. Just like he’s always done.

I disagree that this is entirely one sided. Problems in relationships are rarely one person's fault unless there is abuse of some kind.

If we use the business as an example. The husband set up a business in the OP's home and she worked for him, for free. It disrupted her home life and yet?? At which point did she tell him that this wasn't on? The discussion beforehand? He surely talked about it. When he started handing her photocopying and calls to make? When it disrupted her life?

At which point did the OP communicate her feelings about how she felt about a. Him starting a business that she didn't want him to start. 2. How he was going to make more time for her needs whilst running the business. 3. That she didn't want to work for him or assist him. 4. That the business was disrupting her life.

At some point you have to take responsibility for your own inability to communicate your needs. How did he manage to get her to assist without her consent?

I think I would see it more as about shifting goalposts combined with lack of discussion.

My husband was hugely enthusiastic about this new venture and at that point I probably overestimated his skills or the transferability of them.

When initial problems came up I assumed that by getting business advice, enrolling on courses etc that he would address them. But he didn't implement the advice he was given, or seriously seek to improve his IT/marketing skills.

The pattern that then emerged is that I was left to do all the jobs that he was less skilled at - he would make promises about doing them, but broke those promises repeatedly. (My initial assumption would be that at the start I'd help him with copywriting, use of social media, networking etc but that as he got more used to what needed doing I would gradually step down and have more time in which to pursue my own individual interests.)

My lack of knowledge about how he would function in this new field meant that I did not ask him enough hard questions at the start. And my unwillingness to give up on him meant that I gave him the benefit of the doubt too often after the business had started.

My hope had been that because he is now meant to be winding the business down, that this - along with the counselling - meant that we could move to a better, less stressful state of affairs. However, because the business is only being wound down, because my husband is about to embark on something else that is extremely time-consuming, it is unlikely that the mere fact of the business no longer being in operation will sort out the issues.

I think I'd also felt guilty about not having done well-paid work during our marriage. He'd very much been the breadwinner. So I had thought, rightly or wrongly - and I now think wrongly - that I 'ought' to support him in this new venture. That I owed it to him, because he'd spent long hours working to keep a roof over our heads. The money I'd earned had more been about covering my own personal expenses, though it had also been used to cover the cost of one-off things - such as holiday, major household items, home improvements.

You really need to get on with living life. He hasnt actually stopped you doing anything
He didnt make you work for him and hes not done anything to stop you working more hours now.

If you want to work more, work more. Either the relationship will adapt or it wont. What do you actually want?!?!

Well I am trying to get on with my life. I think my daughter's having left home frees me up. I am doing more paid and voluntary work and also making some new friendships. There are activities which I enjoy

I suppose that there is simply(?) the question of whether I should 'work at' the marriage to see whether communication will improve. On the basis that the communication is pretty stuck which means I have no desire for my husband, should I stay in a sexless marriage for financial reasons? Or go away more and more? Go for a trial separation???

Clearly Mumsnet can't provide the answers. I am just trying to articulate the choices to myself more clearly now.