How do you deal with this?

[keyboardpoi]

Dh has an annoying habit of picking me up on a raised voice when we argue. This derails the discussion and it becomes and argument as I defend myself. (This is really simplistic.)

But absolutely refuses to acknowledge when he does it. So paints a picture that I "always shout" and therefore angry, and he's never angry, which is complete bullshit.

He does by default then DARVO. Or we are arguing about me being angry - which makes me angry, of course.

It's petty and gaslighty but basically fucking annoying and irritating. It has in the past driven me to despair, now it's simply causing a stupid clog in our relationship. He also sometimes laughs which winds me up even more. He says he finds something amusing and genuinely didn't understand why I found it passive aggressive and humiliating the other day. He was then hurt I'd said that's how I felt when he'd laughed!

I know some of it's because his mum never ever raises her voice, is extremely meek and mild and his dad would have done being the patriarch, a prison guard and both being extremely set in traditional gender roles, though he now cooks.

I find sharp comebacks really help. I'm crap at this as in my family we discuss the actual issue, with raised voices, cos that's rather a human thing, without getting dragged into other personal accusations.

I will be using "I'm not angry, just really disappointed" next time he tells me I'm angry.

"I'm not going to be distracted by other issues"

"I don't respond to being spoken to like that" (when he's snapped.)

Gah he's infuriating. The only way to be is to absolutely never loose my cool which is impossible as he often acts like a twelve year old.

It's all the petty crap. Dishwashers and laundry. I can't justify LTB. When I read other stories here and. Have the pat craven book, I don't see him. But I get dragged into stupid arguments trying to unpick accusations and DARVO and lies.

I apologise quickly in arguments. He doesn't. So there's an inbalance there too. I've forced my self to stop apologising. But started to again in order to demonstrate how to apologise! He knows I find this an issue. Was genuinely clueless, now says I don't give him a chance which is probably very true! It's just that he expects apologies and has been rather over the top getting our son to do so in the past.

Even if no replies, it's helpful to write it down!

How often are you arguing? It sounds exhausting.

Yes it is.

I'm getting some counselling to try to alter my reactions and I have some ongoing anxiety I need to deal with.

Once a fortnight at the moment. But they drag on.

Unfortunately there were a lot of issues after ds1 was born linked to pregnancy and his birth, he had iugr. I had long term illness. This affected Dh and I badly and there's been a whole other pile of stuff that went on, now very much past, but I think it affected many things. However, this arguing style existed before and I used to crumple into tears and apologise profusely and he never did. And we moved on.

He is extremely bad at hearing my POV. I've worked on how to communicate this. We are arguing more as I'm calling him out more when he's been unreasonable in the argument. Unfortunately I probably am quite cross so I'm trying to work on assertively stating it.

One thing I may need to change is that I have felt his lack of apologies are avoidant and I've felt my issues are unrecognised. But I think that's how he works.

Why don't you sit down and split out the chores (dishwasher/laundry etc) and make them someone's responsibility? Just agree that one of you will always do each specific chore then there's no need for the argument?

You need to be able to converse without getting angry too. I know it's not always easy but if that's the only stick he's got to beat you with then take it away.

Yes we do that now.

After many hours of me pointing out that I work 3 days and have preschool kids and while I will do most of it, he can't do nothing.

I hired a cleaner.

We have actually come very far.

It's the injustice of him thinking he can behave in ways he then attacks me for. He gets angry and displays it and says things I don't feel are fair. But denies it! And rarely apologised.

But you're right. I need to just not rise to it.

As mum would say "I should bang your heads together!" (We May be both as bad as each other.)

You're not as bad as each other because you acknowledge and address your flaws

Have you considered relationship therapy? You might find this helpful:

www.relate.org.uk/relationship-help/help-relationships/arguing-and-conflict/i-cant-seem-stop-arguing-my-partner-what-can-we-do

Giveher

I feel I do. I feel he doesn't. I feel I have to spot what's damaging in what he does and spell it out. So I'm having to do the work for both of us.

Yes, we went to counselling a long time ago, when he simply wasn't listening/ agreeing with me on a number of points. It was the first time I got to get a number of issues off my chest. He got fed up but did change a lot.

He's since said it was just me doing a 'monologue' which I feel is dismissive. And so won't consider it. I'm now wondering if he meant he couldn't get a word in.

He cuts across me when I try to give my POV. I never get a chance to give my POV.

I'm going to work on how to assertively communicate that I would like to discuss something in relation to a disagreement and ask when he's ready to do so.

12345

That's a really helpful link. I may approach the idea again with him.

The four things listed as not a way to argue are what he does. I do the last one definitely, but sometimes that's because he really isn't seeing a bigger picture.

@keyboardpoi sorry that's what I meant - you're nowhere near as bad as him because you can actually be an adult about it!

What is DARVO? I have asked in a previous post but can’t remember. And I feel exhausted just reading the OP!

DARVO = Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender.

He sounds like a royal pita.

He'll prematurely age you/ cause you stress rated health issues.

Could you manage financially separated/divorced.

I can't justify LTB.

Do you love him?

Sometimes I feel so empty and hopeless I can't answer that.

But I've been poorly recently; a phase of hypothyroidism. Always makes things worse, partly as I can't think straight. I probably get more paranoid which probably makes me picky or panicky about things.

Its trying to separate the normal daily stuff partners bicker about from some much deeper things associated with the birth of our first child, blame etc. Plus character type etc. And now habit arguing. But the main issues are, for me, the 4 key things in that article. I think they're related to the 4 horsemen book?

I've been feeling better over the last week and when I try to do over arching reflecting I do love him.

He's not any of the shit stuff you normally read on this board. Eg porn, affairs, physical etc. No financial stuff - he's very generous and we have always managed that very well. Made plans and project managed them well. Kids are great.

I know he had a harshish but loving upbringing which doesn't help.

I'm sorry, but your marriage sounds insufferable. All this constant fighting and bickering is ridiculous. I couldn't stand it. I think you would both be better without each other. It's very sad that your children are learning this part of a normal relationship. There's nothing normal about it.

Yes it's tough.

We had a wonderful period after my second son. It was lovely.

I've tried to point out we are stretched to the max constantly. He always thinks we aren't trying hard enough and everyone else is doing the same as us and better.

The truth is he works very long hours, I do on my work days, also both sometimes at weekends. We are managing our two old flats - mostly him while I look after the kids. We have enough money but not as much as many Friends/ people in our area. We've done very well to do up an appalling house just before and while we've had kids. Still ongoing a bit. Plus I had an extreme long term illness for a few years. That with a small child was a big strain.

Fucking massive drip feed sorry.

Helpful to gain perspective.

He sounds like an exhausting arse.

Maybe I am getting through.

A couple of things happened last night where he clearly was considering how he responds.

You've of course got the full worst stuff here, plus I'm being "he always" when it's not nec always always.

@keyboardpoi you have my sympathy - my husband does this to me, too. I get accused of 'shouting at him' during arguments, which basically is a way of shutting me down because he doesn't want to hear what I have to say. Ironically it only happens when I'm picking him up on something he's done wrong

Anyway - I have no advice. It sucks, though

you have my sympathy - my husband does this to me, too. I get accused of 'shouting at him' during arguments, which basically is a way of shutting me down because he doesn't want to hear what I have to say. Ironically it only happens when I'm picking him up on something he's done wrong

Same here. It’s exhausting when you’re already upset, you try to talk it over and then end up being told your tone/timing/approach is all wrong and that he’s now upset because you’ve insulted him etc.

FWIW I had a similar incident the other evening. It ended (as it always does!) with me saying I’m not continuing the conversation if he’s going to swear at me, which he then says is patronising and that I’ve “lost it” and he’s not continuing the conversation until I calm down etc.

We both took some time to cool off. The next day we had a calm talk about it and he said this is just how we do things. He always acts the exact same way, so do I. We have our ‘roles’ that we play and the argument is pretty much always rooted in the same thing (me feeling that he’s neglecting me/our relationship in favour of work/friends/other family/hobbies when I’m down and need some support). His take was, we never manage to resolve anything at the time, we just go through the motions of this same fight time and time again. The next day we both realise we could have acted differently and then we let it go. It’s almost inevitable. I think seeing it like that does help a bit. If nothing else, to shorten the argument.

If you can accept that at the end of it, he won’t suddenly see the light and agree with you and vice versa. You will both continue to feel the same way about yourself and each other. If you want to stop the argument you have to address the root of it - not the washing or whatever, but the feeling of being taken for granted or for him the feeling of being told what to do etc.

I read a book called The Games People Play, which is about transactional analysis and the way we relate to each other as children/parents/adults. When you ask/tell him to do the laundry etc he’s seeing you as his mother and reacting like a child. Whether his actual mother was like that is irrelevant - in this narrative you’re relating to him on the level of a critical parent of a child who’s not doing as he’s told (the “I’m not angry just disappointed” line feeds right into that BTW so I wouldn’t go with that!!)

You need to find a way to talk adult to adult, with no parent/child dynamic in there at all. Which is hard to do because I know my DP automatically slips into child mode whenever I ask him to do anything around the house, but becomes all parental the minute it turns to an argument! It’s rare that we’re both able to get back into adult mode and discuss things on a level. But when we do, it’s the only time anything gets resolved.

Luckily he’s as invested (if not more so) in self-improvement - although his focus is on being better at work, it does help at home. It can also make him a bit evangelical about it and means he can call me out on my bullshit while steadfastly ignoring his own! but things have definitely changed for the better over the years.

3 books that have helped (because we’ve both read them)

The Chimp Paradox
TA today (this ones a bit much, but the Games People Play is a more accessible version of this)
The Power of Now (he’s loving this one and trying to convert everyone at work to read it!!) which focuses on this moment and not what’s happened before or might happen in future.

As a fellow hypothyroid sufferer, I am prone to anxiety, exhaustion etc and he also has chronic health issues, so we do need to work out how/when to let things go when we’re not at our best.

Sorry that’s so long! It just resonated with me - hope some of it is helpful!!

Thank you both, and sorry you have partners with rubbish arguing styles.

Extremely helpful post 30, I've actually bought the chimp paradox child's version for ds (and I was interested fit work) and I have the actual one on audible but haven't had time to properly listen to it all. Ironically my friend gave me an old copy of the games book years ago - will have to hunt it out.

I expect I can come across as bossy sometimes - teacher mode. He goes in to authoritarian mode. So we both grapple for power.

It's the passive aggressive comments that will continue post argument that really upsets me, however now I've identified it (and bought an amazing book) I know I can call it out which he'll respond to.

I suppose I really struggle with calming down as he's repeatedly managed to avoid taking it through when we are calm. Manages to avoid it or conveniently forget what was said and his part in it so I want to clarify and end it there and then.

Dh won't read any books though. He's actually quite a slow reader and doesn't read for pleasure at all apart from occasional newspapers. He was interested in the chimp one from the story behind it POV though.

If you can accept that at the end of it, he won’t suddenly see the light and agree with you and vice versa. You will both continue to feel the same way about yourself and each other. If you want to stop the argument you have to address the root of it - not the washing or whatever, but the feeling of being taken for granted or for him the feeling of being told what to do etc.

Absolutely which is what is in the relate article upthread.

"All behaviour has a reason"