How to manage tricky family/ narcissist in family ?

[SirVixofVixHall]

This is mainly for my DH, but also for me. Complicated, so I will try and sum it up, bear with me if it is a bit long !
Fil had a (diagnosed) personality disorder, and was a total nightmare to deal with, narcissism, manipulation, abusive behaviour. He is dead, but Sil is very similar to him, although more functional, she has a child and at the moment is managing well, although in the past she has been hospitalised. She is very deceitful, has a massive ego, and an inflated sense of her own abilities and importance. We don’t know if she has been given a diagnosis of a pd, but she fits the pic for a narcissist.
Mil shores this up by praising everything Sil does, and refusing to support DH , even when Sil (who is pathologically jealous of DH and competitive, and will lie etc to manipulate things to get her own way) has behaved terribly.
Dh has gone minimal contact with his sister. He does have contact with his Mum, but it is upsetting and difficult, as she favours SIl over him all the time. Small things that have mounted up, eg she will go to Sil’s dc’s party but not our dc, allows Sil’s DH to treat my DH badly etc.
He loves his Mum, and I also do care about her but have found her increasingly hard to deal with, maybe I have just reached my limit, I don’t know. However she is my dc’s only Grandparent, so I make an effort partly for their sakes, partly for DH. She has done the odd thing for dd1, paid for a school trip away, that kind if thing, but she does nothing else for our dc .
Mil is in her eighties, and worryingly, sounds more and more like Sil when we see her. She parrots things that Sil has said, and seems almost manipulated by Sil into decisions that also affect us because
there is a family business that they are all part of, and that is a huge part of the problem , as DH has to still negotiate with Sil and work with her at times, ditto his Mum.
DH is a very honest and straightforward person, but the more he is straightforward with his Mum, the more she seems to resent him. He has tried to talk in a calm way about how she treats him and Sil so differently, but she just gets annoyed. ( is impossible to talk to his sister at all , so he only speaks to her in a formal setting, at meetings, and avoids any other interaction).
Any advice on talking to Mil without making things worse, and on dealing with a narc in a family business setting ? DH is the least Machiavellian person imaginable, but I think he needs tactics ! Sil will absolutely do anything she can do undermine and damage DH, and she now seems to have an enormous influence on MIl, which means she could potentially have an influence on decisions which could have financial ramifications for us.
So two main issues , managing a narcissist without getting shafted by them, and talking to a parent who seems to have swapped one domineering narc (fil) for another (sil). Weirdly DH very much seemed her favourite when he was much younger, but she is not happy that we kept our dds away from Fil, and blames me in particular for this, even though Fil was abusive to me .

How is the business structured in terms of ownership?

Pretty soon it'll be your husband and his sister running it - how will that work out?

I would advise to walk away.Narcs are a nightmare and only get worse.The enabelers are a huge problem too.Your DH can;t win cos he is not like them. Cut your losses OP if yu can and leave them all would be my advice.I wouldnt want to waste my life on a constant evolving battle where you have no idea of the rules cos the narcs keep changing them.The only way you win is to walk away for your own sanity.

How will that work out ? It will be very difficult. There are other family members involved too, and non family professionals (who are great, thankfully ).

DH keeps involvement- with SIl in particular- to a minimum, but does want to stay involved, hard to explain here but it would be v difficult to walk away, nor does he want to be pushed out by a jealous sibling.

If I were your husband, I would want out of the business. Could they buy him out?

The bottom line, imo, is that you can't manage a narcissist, only your reaction to them.

For self protection reasons I would leave and find another job, sounds horrendous and mil and sil won't change.....

It isn’t his main job, hard to explain further without it being very outing . He doesn’t want to leave it completely, just to be better armed to deal with his dsis, and to talk to his mother and hopefully have her understand him better.

Your situation sounds v complicated. No particular advice just 1 thing I learned from dealing with narcs in my family: expect the unexpected. Even if you think: nobody will go that far (in terms of doing nasty things to others)...narcs will do whatever it takes to win. Do not look at them trough the perspective of normal, decent people because they are NOT.

OP, there is no way of reasoning with a narcissist. They are totally self centred and unable to see anyone else’s point of view. They have zero insight. Reality will always be manipulated in their mind to present facts in a light that flatters themself.
I echo a PP who suggested your DH should ask to be bought out of the business and walk away. Realistically, MIL won’t be around much longer, and SIL will be calling the shots. How would your DH possibly function in such a toxic business environment?

It won’t be Sil calling the shots exactly, thankfully, or it really would be impossible . Mil has a younger sibling, and there are also cousins involved, so her influence is diluted, but malign nonetheless. I am listening to all your comments and they are very helpful. My own family were (and are ) very trustworthy and kind, so this is an alien world.
DH is equally concerned about his Dm, he doesn’t want to give up on a relationship with her. He has accepted that his sister is impossible to have a relationship with, but understandably hopes for better understanding between him and his Mum.

Literally prepare for the worst behaviour in history if they have NPD.
Makesure you watch them on social media, it may be vomit inducing , with their fake lives but you will be able to keep track of anything underhand going on.
If negotiating, always go high so that it can be brought down to what you want(I don't mean to sound patronizing!).
They will lie, cheat, deceive and sell their granny to get what they want.
But you know all of this.
I wish you lots of luck . I am going through a divorce with my ex narcissist and his even bigger narcissistic/histrionic mother. It is a nightmare and has severely damaged my health!
Good luck.

She isn’t on social media, thankfully.
Good tip re negotiations.
The lies are the issue that ended the relationship. The tantrums , egomania, and spoilt behaviour were hard to take but could have been dealt with I think, but the lying is the thing that neither DH nor I could take.

I read a book about 25 years ago which says it’s possible to manipulate anyone and we fall into four personality types. Can’t for the life of me remember the book. Could it be Celestine prophesies, hive mind?

Anyway, you would think sooking up her arse is the best way. Flatter her. Make it seem genuine. Work out what she wants, work out what you want, manipulate by using flattering logic.

Eg say you (well probably her brother but you could too) have an ice cream van. She wants to do the Saturday shift as it brings the most money. She’s a crap salesperson so you don’t want that. You want her to do another day that has less potential for loss from her nasty behaviour.

You’d say “that’s great you want to do Saturday, thanks. I heard the weathers supposed to be drizzle so I wouldn’t want to do that day, but if you want to that’s great, kind of you to volunteer when that new hairdo you have, which looks beautiful by the way, could go all frizzy in the damp with the van window open. I do hope not, even the shine makes it look so healthy, wish mine (or my wife’s depending on whose saying this) was in as good condition they’ve done a great job, what did they use in it. Oh that the name of the product I must buy some, anyway if you want to do Saturday that’s great but only if you’re sure. You could do Sunday if you prefer and let John do Saturday. His hairs a mess anyway ha ha. Your hair really does look good, it’s totally up to you”.

She’ll mull that lot over and do Sunday. Mission accomplished.

Long winded but you get my drift. Play to her vanity.

Plan ahead. Use cunning logic. Pulling in the mother of needs be to back you up as she knows the mother is on her side so if you are saying the same as each other you must be in her side too so can be trusted as you notice how clever, beautiful, accomplished she is as you should do as she’s just brilliant, so her guard will be down.
Eg to the mother “isn’t sandras hair beautiful, they really have cut it well”. Mother will of course agree that her darling angel has fab hair.

Only prob is that you have to start sooking in advance so she accepts you are “genuine” and not taking the piss it being hateful and goes crying to mummykins. If she chins you about why you are being so nice you just say you are “just feeling really happy these days, (or I’m on medication from the gp that’s really helping me) thank you for noticing, that’s kind of you, how are you doing, you look great by the way”.

You get my drift. Build up the sooking in advance, try and work out a strategy prior for every thing she is likely to say that you don’t fancy so you can manipulate her subtly without her realising. She has to think the choices are hers and that you both are her adoring fan club.

The mother probably feels comfy around her as the dad is dead and she felt comfy round him so the daughter replaces the dad.

I can’t manipulate for long periods of time as I just want to kill the person and hate myself for flattering the fuckwit but it’s a means to an end if you need to get results!

I don’t ever see her, we have no contact at all, I have managed not to see her for years... DH tries not to engage, he does not get into any conflict with her any more, so no personal conversations at all, only board room discussion. When their father died he had to have the odd email discussion - she does this weird thing where if anyone has a good idea she will then act as though it is either her idea, or it is something that she has ultimate veto on, so she will email or say that she had been about to say that, or give her permission for this to happen, even if it is nothing to do with her, or not her call to make.
DH grey rocks. I can see she would absolutely respond to flattery, but they don’t have any contact where DH would do that.

There is only one way to deal and save your sanity - walk away.

Your DH needs to work on extracting himself unless everyone other than MIL and SIL are united with him.

Could he have a meeting with others and raise his concerns about both their mental capacity to hold their positions. Not to oust them but to lay the ground work when it goes tits up?

He couldn’t have a meeting with the others. To most people she seems capable, as although she is patronising and prone to dramas, she is very careful about her public image. With DH she would lose it, because as a sibling, he knew her too well and could challenge her on lies.
I think that a couple of other family members find her difficult but that is my feeling, rather than due to discussion.
DH won’t walk away, he has too much invested, in family connections and loyalty, financially, emotionally etc. He also gets on well with most of the other family members.
He wants to stay involved, but to be able to manage the situation emotionally.

Narcissists respond extremely well to having their egos massaged and being constantly validated.

If that is not possible, could your husband secretly speak to the other family members in the company and see about getting her removed, or gang up on her about situations, so that they back up your Dh and he backs them.

I don't envy your husband. I also have narcissistic siblings, but at least I can go NC with them.
Good luck!

My whole family have enabled my narcisstic sister - her behaviour was very damaging to me so I've left them all to it and gone NC. It's bliss.

She does respond to having her ego massaged and being constantly validated ! That is what Mil does.
DH doesn’t. He used to, to some degree, because she was always crying and saying how terrible she was at everything, so that lal the family would then say “ oh no, you are amazing and beautiful etc etc”.
He stopped doing that as he had reached his limit, and the dramas were too much. Not validating her made her behaviour worse towards DH, so he stopped any social contact.

Any tips on how to talk to MIl about this ?

You will have to tread carefully, Mil seems to see Sil as the golden child and is a flying monkey/enabler, so I don't think outright telling her the truth about Sil will work.

I would say something along the lines of :-
Sil has done such a brilliant job, but she seems a like she may need a break/ have a different role in the firm/ something less hands on. Something along those lines.

Or just outright say (insert name) has decided we are having a revision of roles within the company and Sil will be designated this role. (Tea maker/biscuit provider).

I tried to tell the truth about how my brother is going under with all the pressure my parents put on him to run the family business. That didn't go down well with narcissists!
So NC is the best way out of the craziness and dysfunction.

Once again, I wish you good luck!

DH grew up with a narcissist father, so avoids anyone who tries to manipulate him, or who lies/creates drama/threatens etc.
Unfortunately he does have to deal with Sil in this setting.
He wants to have a better relationship with his Mum, she is elderly, in great health now but he is aware that could change.
He seemed closer to her than Sil was, when they were in their early twenties. Sil tended to ally herself with their father.
However that has changed and now Mil is closer to Sil and actively puts her first. Sil is married to a man who schmoozes Mil , he is horrible, but Mil likes the flattery. I am nice to Mil, but more distant. I don’t ask her on holiday with us etc, mainly because she isn’t very nice to me, so going away together would be horribly stressful, and my life is stressful enough. Sil and her Dh go on holiday with Mil, so I can see that she likes that and is loathe to fall out with Sil. Hence she goes to far the other way, and does what Sil wants by pushing out DH.

Eg DH has suggested that we go to Mil every other Christmas, so she has Sil one year, and us the next, but Sil insists on going every year, so we never go, as the conflict would make Christmas horrible . This then makes us further out of things.

Family dynamics are difficult, but they are even worse with narcissists involved.

Can you invite your MIL around for boxing day?
Or New year's day?
Maybe just meeting MIL in a neutral place for a nice lunch somewhere or afternoon tea , then maybe you could talk to her away from Sol.