Resolving issues with MIL

[Andromeida59]

So as not to drip feed. I went NC with MIL a few months ago due to her controlling, narcissistic behaviour. She has acted up in various ways but DP has done a fantastic job of keeping her away and standing by me.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the peace that the NC has brought. I don't get the calls/messages. She hasn't been at the house (although she has demanded it to DP).
FIL now wants to talk to me about the situation. I'm happy to speak to him.

Has anyone been in this situation and resolved it? I know she's not going to change and I'm not willing to put the effort in to try and get her to change.
DP goes round to theirs, FIL comes to ours to help DP on the house. Their relationship has not been damaged.

I guess I'm looking for tips on having an "arm's length" relationship.

No, do not talk to FIL, it will not go well for you. How do you think such a conversation is going to go?. It will be a one sided conversation. He will basically try and strongarm you into complying with his wife's demands because he is her secondary enabler. He is also not interested in hearing your side of things, he just wants a quiet life because he is in all likelihood getting an earful now from his wife. He'd gladly continue to throw you under the bus so as not for that to keep happening.

This situation is not going to be resolved because neither she or for that matter FIL will change. This is who they are and its not your fault they are like this. She is the instigator and he enables her, those roles will not change.

If your partner wants to continue to have a relationship of sorts (it is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist) with them then this is up to him. You do not have to and besides which you have enjoyed the peace in not dealing with his mother. You have established boundaries here; stick to them. Both his parents will likely use their son or try to going forward, to target you because he is the weak link here.

I do not agree with Attila's response.

For the long term sake of family harmony, it is necessary to be able to spend short amounts of time together without strife.

I had a similar situation with my MIL many years ago, but I always got on well with my FIL, (I think he had similar problems with my MIL tbh).
Anyway bottom line FIL and I had a long talk where I explained my problems with MIL., taking care not to slag her off but nevertheless making clear how uncomfortable she made me feel. I don't know what he said to her, but after that she and I could at least be civil to each other. It's worth a try OP. If it doesn't work out at least you will have tried. There's nothing worse than bad feelings in a family that will always have to get together from time to time.

Your FIL actually listened puss, there is no guarantee that this will happen in this scenario.

As for "family harmony" that ideal is flawed because his mother (and for that matter his father too) caused this to happen in the first place. Is it really necessary for the OP to spend time with her man's mother or he for that matter for the sake of "family harmony"?. No.

I often also ask whether this behaviour would have been tolerated from a friend, in most cases that answer is no too.

What do you want long term?

Do you have kids? I'm guessing not. I think as part of thinking through what you do want longer term, put that into the mix.

Personally, I don't think an 'arms length' relationship is likely to work for you long term really and that goes triple when you have kids. I would be super wary of having a routine established where your partner goes to them to continue their relationship with you not there. Pretty soon MIL might come to realise she quite likes that - she can't come into your home and control things, but she can quite easily reframe the situation to see you as having been 'got rid of' and no longer welcome in her home - but her boy can come back to mummy and be fussed over. And with you not there to hear, if your DP likes to keep the peace - he might think he's done pretty well at following your wishes at keeping her away and so will be more willing to turn a blind ear to sarky comments about you (what you don't know won't hurt you) and might think that telling his mum this and that about your life in order to make her think she's got more input is worth it if it shuts her up. Things you'd rather not share... but you're not there to hear him mollify her.

It's ultimately very divisive and corrosive for your marriage. Here's an example. You're redoing the bathroom. MIL is full of it on your DP's visits with advice on what tiles to use and where to go and she knows best of course. Your DP treads a careful line with 'Yeah thanks Mum we'll bear it in mind'. FIL is pulled in, before you know it peacekeeper DP is accepting their advice on tiles in order to stop the tide of interference, you aren't there so least said soonest mended - you end up with tiles MIL has effectively recommended but you have no idea of this until a year later when she sees the bathroom and smugly comments on 'Oh I knew the tiles I chose would look perfect.' Trivial and so not trivial.

You won't know what she's saying to him and if he's a peacekeeper he won't tell you it all.

That's before kids. No aspect of this arrangement will work for a second if you have children - you absolutely will not want them to see her without you there. And you shouldn't, because the subtle undermining and 'Oh we don't have to listen to silly Mummy's rules when you're at Grannys! That's why silly Mummy doesn't come here, we have fun here and she doesn't like fun does she? Shh don't tell Daddy now' - that kind of shit very soon hits that particular fan and well, it ain't good for anyone.

So. What to do. Are you prepared to talk through with your DH about what happens if you have children, and how he'd feel about her not seeing them? That effectively if you're going to be a proper partnership, there cannot be a dynamic where he continues to be part of a family that you are NOT part of?

None of this can work long term. The two answers are that you see MIL and FIL together as a team on controlled visits, that FIL is still welcome to yours to see your DP separately, and that you maintain the same when kids arrive. The other answer is that he cuts contact. The third answer is that you move far enough away so that contact is controlled via the distance.

Attila, a friend is massively different from a family member.

Dynamics within a family often have a ripple effect on several members who often feel responsibilities towards some of the 'group' , whilst friends are mostly just the two people involved.

Thank you for the responses.

I do get on with FIL and I do feel that he is a victim of her behaviour. There's so many things he's not allowed to do because she won't allow it. I think he's just given up. I have no issue talking to him to get my point across plus, at least on his part, it will seem like he has tried.

DP and MIL have never really got on because of her behaviour. She has tried to interfere in the past (in regard to decorating) but it doesn't stick.

We don't have children, yet, (although I did have a miscarriage earlier this year) but one of the biggest worries was how she was going to be.

He is doing his wife's bidding here.

He has chosen his wife and stays with her for his own reasons. You can try talking to him by all means but bear in mind it may not go well for you. Will he really listen to you and will he go back to her and tell her all that you actually said; I doubt it. He will want to come out of this meeting looking as good as possible because it takes her flak away from him and back onto you. Is his son going to be present at this meeting too btw?.

If DP and MIL don't get on, then there seems little point in him potentially undermining his relationship in order to keep contact with her. I would be clear to him that if you had kids there is no way she would be having a relationship with them. Get his thoughts on that and start that discussion on whether he wants to maintain contact at all.

So the aim of the meeting is to enable fil to feel like he's tried... your DP doesn't want much to do with her neither do you ... FIL still has relationship with ur DP so am not sure there's any point

I don't think it would do harm to talk with your FIL. You have good & valid reasons for your position & have the support of your DP on it.
If you think it would add to your peace of mind for the future, eg if you have DC & wouldn't want DP taking them to PIL's house without you, perhaps you could look at having a monthly(?) meet-up in a cafe/restaurant? If even that ends up unworkable then you & DP could go full NC with MIL. FIL could continue to come to your house if he's prepared to but there'd be no contact from either of you with the MIL & all discussion on it permanently closed.

OP, FIL is a spy in your camp. I agree with Attila's analysis and have been in a similar situation myself.

I learnt this: MIL (and FIL as the flying monkey) will try to chip away at DH's resolve in protecting you, and shortly - because things aren't going her way - MIL is going to become 'ill'. In my case exMIL was also building up a Divorce Fund to restore her accustomed control of her son with me off the scene. I very much hope this doesn't happen in your case.

Manners and civility are appropriate towards everyone, family or not. War rules mean they get abandoned by the unscrupulous.

I’m on the fence. I think it’s good you took a stand and refuse to visit MIL. BUT if/when you have kids if it was me the kids would be seeing MIL over my dead body without me present to supervise and make sure no toxic nonsense is spilled into their head.

The only solution I can see is that you and hubby become a tight team. You go to visit MIL as a couple. You and hubby agree that as soon as MIL becomes difficult you both leave together. And repeat.

I think with kids involved I’d only be comfortable with NC as long as kids also are NC

I know she's not going to change and I'm not willing to put the effort in to try and get her to change
So what is there to discuss?
FIL is a flying monkey and his job is to soften you up and convince you to give her yet another chance.

He is also her enabler because not only has he CHOSEN to stay with her despite her abuse of him, but he is also now helping her to abuse you.

NC means NC - and it also means that others are not allowed to 'discuss' the situation with you.
Decide what your boundaries with FIL are otherwise he will eventually wear you down with 'his' repeated attempts.
You also need to make it clear that MIl will have NC with any children you have in the future - just in case either of them think otherwise.

Narcissists don't give two shits about 'family harmony' so don't fall for that line.

Thank you for all of your responses.

The issues with MIL's behaviour is that she only behaves a certain way when no one else is around. She even turned up unannounced a few months ago. She would demand to come round every weekend and get really difficult if she couldn't come round.

I do like FIL, I've always got on with him. I still do see him as more of a victim than an enabler. FIL has always talked to me about things. We've even talked about DP and I having children. Whenever I spoke to MIL about having children, she always put me down.

I do want to speak to him but when he's at ours. I feel I owe him that much. I'm not expecting him to side with me. He's not going to choose me over his wife. I just feel that if I speak to him, I've done my part.

I think you're doing the right thing Andromeida.

Slightly different situation. More my mother! And she sounds like your MIL. Put up with her behaviour for years which eventually resulted in her trying to assault me. Have contact but low level now and as a result sees little of grandkids. DF tried to use husband to strong arm me but doing her bidding and she clearly sees that none of this is her fault

So the lesson is and I agree with some others, it won't go well. He will probably be conciliatory but the reality is that he is doing her bidding and short term she will probably try and control herself. She will have future grandkids in mind but the reality of people like her are that leopards don't change spots so you may as well accept it and set the relationship now as you need to carry on

Good luck..isn't easy

FIL do not always support Mil. It differs from case to case. Everybody has their own stories and experiences which colour their view of the issue, and rightly so, but I think it's good in this case that the OP is going to try find a way that is not destructive to the family as a whole.
If it fails then it fails and she and her DH will have to decide their next steps, but both will know that the OP has done her utmost for family harmony.

Your FIL supported you pusspuss thank goodness but many such men will back down and not be so brave. What happened to you is certainly sadly not the case for all women in this situation. This man seemingly too has not done anything to try and rein in his wife's excesses of behaviour to date so what has really changed?.

OP needs to tread very carefully here re her partner's dad because he has shown to date that he cannot be relied upon. He is his wife's secondary enabler. Women like this always but always need a willing enabler to help them.

OPs partners family has already imploded big time and this has been going on for many years and certainly prior to OP meeting her partner. He certainly drew the short straw when it came to his dysfunctional parents and now OP is paying for being involved with such people at all. There has never been a semblance of any family harmony because his family of origin is both emotionally unhealthy and dysfunctional.

These people have not and will not play by the "normal" rules of familial interactions. His mother is the main protagonist here and she is planning on not going anywhere nor thankfully attending. Emotionally healthy people do not behave like his parents have done. What price then for supposed family harmony which is tenuous at best so not achievable?.

What will such a meeting achieve, probably very little if anything. OP seems to be doing this out of she thinking he is a victim too and therefore feeling obligated to give him a chance (those are poor reasons to agree to meet him) .

I sincerely hope I am wrong here and he turns out to be another exception to the rule like your own FIL was. But it would not sadly surprise me if he towed the party line.

Congratulations on NC with Narcissistic MIL.
My ex narcissistic husband was enmeshed with his narc mother. There were no boundaries and he even gave her a key to our house so she would just turn up.
My FIL was like a dad to me, but he was her enabler/flying monkey. My ex never had my back with her and he would actively let her rip into me and the children and not defend us.
Don't let her near your future children, my son was threatened by her when we went to look at a puppy for my very ill daughter. She was going to punch my 9 year old son for walking into her study while she was on her computer, my son and daughter hate her.
My FIL was bullied and abused throughout their marriage and only tried to stand up for himself when he was diagnosed with a terminal lung disease. He would confide in me, as my MIL made his life hell and my ex and SIL were her flying monkeys.
I wish I knew then about Narcs, what i know now.
My ex MIL financially controlled my ex husband and my FIL, I was then financially controlled by Ex narc. A huge mess.
I saw my Ex MIL last week after 4 years of not seeing her, I felt like I was going to vomit, my legs turned to jelly and I began to shake. That is the fear response she put in me.Nasty, spiteful control freak old woman.
That said.:

1. If you meet FIL prepare for anything said to be relayed back to MIL. Prepare to go NC with both of them at least you have the support of DP. I didn't.

2.Don't let your future children anywhere near her, unless you are there to defend them. Good luck..

@AttilaTheMeerkat
These people have not and will not play by the "normal" rules of familial interactions.

I agree it seems DH's mum seems not to play by the 'normal' rules of familial interactions, but we don't know about the FIL. You speak with such certainty even though you don't know them that I wonder how much experience you have had in real life interactions? I mean this kindly, not insultingly. I've had much experience with people in my job over many years and I know that the last thing one should do is form opinions without much prior thought and observation. Often when you talk to these 'bad guys' you get a different opinion, or at least a glimmer of where they are coming from. This is not for one minute to excuse bad behaviour, but is does help in finding a way of understanding each other and being able to at least be civil to each other.

I did say in my previous post that if OP's attempt to find a way through this via FIL doesn't work then she and DH will have to decide their next steps .

The OP has done her utmost for family harmony

Why is it her responsibility? Sounds like everyone’s expected to accommodate the MIL just for a quiet life.

because the OP has asked for help in establishing an arm's length relationship with her MIL.

There is no establishing an arms length relationship with someone as disordered of thinking as OPs MIL. Its not going to work and narcissists really do not give a fig about family harmony either; it is their way or no way as far as they are concerned.

I have had a great deal of first hand experience with narcissists; my MIL and late FIL being two such people and my BIL is another disordered of thinking person. I came to realise over some years that FIL was on the same team as MIL by enabling her as he did. It also suited him to do so and these people really do have no empathy for others. At the same time he wanted everyone else to feel sorry for him because he felt hard done by (and in the early days I did feel a bit sorry for him) but he was really just as culpable. I have also learnt that it is really not possible to have a relationship with such disordered of thinking people. People this disordered of thinking really do need a willing enabler to help them. And now my BIL has stepped up to become my MILs enabler.

I have also worked with narcissists and they really can do an awful lot of emotional damage to the workplace in terms of morale.

In the OPs case OP has done everything possible to protect her own self from her partner's mother (a person whom OPs man here cannot abide either). Self preservation is necessary here to protect yourself from being further abused. People would not readily tolerate this sort of stuff from a friend, family are no different.

If OP goes onto have children his parents, particularly his mother, should have no direct involvement in their lives.

I would like some advice - my son is in Australia on a working visa and his Australian girlfriend is pregnant. The impression I get is that she and her family are happy and my son is in the process of working for his 2nd year visa. How involved should I be with my daughter in-law to be and her family. I plan to be there for the birth so any not to do stories would be helpful. They are both very young - financially insecure and have only been together for 6 months.

Does FIL want to talk to you alone? I'd be inclined to listen to him if DP were also present but not otherwise. I'd first get DP to talk to FIL alone about what FIL wants to achieve from the the talk with you.