Is a narcissist an abuser in your opinion?

[tobedtoMNandfart]

My father is a narcissist. In my opinion he's at that far end of the scale. He cares for nothing and no one unless it's in his interests.
As I am a nice person I have been to hell and back for 5 years to try to fix things, whilst continually being blamed as 'the problem'.

NC now for 10 months. I am nearly at the point now where I can confidently label it as abusive (emotionally and psychologically). In this way I can justify to myself why he and my mother no longer see me, my DH & my 3 DC.

He, and others, would never see it this way.
I realise it depends on your experience, your generation, your opinion...

So MN, in your opinion, is it 'abusive'.

As a very wise MN’er says - if they’re too toxic for you, they’re definitely too toxic for your DC’s.

I think this is true but to me it’s still very very hard to absorb. Feel massively rubbish about denying my kids that bond that they so crave

MrsNotNice - ahhh, but you didn’t! THEY DID!!!!
You put up with their shocking behaviour, kept everything nice, it’s not your fault! You’ve done the right thing by putting you and your DC’s first. Please don’t beat yourself up. 💐

@tobedtoMNandfart your feelings are definitely validated. A lot of people here will understand! Night.

Yes, I feel the same way. As an adult the enabler is even more difficult to understand because they have some shreds of humanity.

And sorry about yours too. But the best way of sticking two fingers up at a narc parent is to have loved and happy dc that will always come first so we, and anyone else that suffered the same have escaped and triumphed in the end.

We've had the health crisis phase, I suggested she look for residential care. Then the house emergencies where I suggested calling the relevant professionals. Most recent is mental health, which even she should have remembered was the absolute last thing I would support her with. That received the dial tone. It's been bliss since.

I read the full thread, you've had a horrible time OP, I'm glad you're finding ways to distance and protect yourself. Part of the experience of abuse is being made to doubt your own feelings, memory and experiences.

To answer your initial question, I think it would be very rare for a narcissistic personality disordered person to not also be an abuser, but they are likely only abusive towards a few people. Sadly that is often their spouse and children, while everyone else thinks they are charming because that is how they advertise themselves to the world.

This is not ment as an attack - just as a view from outside of the FOG X
You blame rightly your mother for not protecting you or intervening with your farther as you know it's almost as abusive as he was ! BUT you still as a mother let this abusive pair have access to your children ? Do you not see the parallels ? If they are too toxic for you they are too toxic for your children is not said over and over for nothing !
You need to have hard awkward conversations with your oldest children - you need to parent as your mother did not - wanting a relationship and a relationship being healthy are too different things.

Yes it’s abusive

But our minds are wired to see the best in people I think, so it takes a while to realise that.
I still remember the few good times. DM baking something I liked (till golden child dsis decided the smell of my favourite cake made her ill 🙄), the days when I didn’t get told off, made fun of it gaslighted.
The Christmas I got what I asked for not the ones where I didn’t (many more when I didn’t).
I won’t go into more detail as it’s outing.

Currently NC and it’s become evident how much I’m missed as some kind of punchbag

Emotional abuse isn't really an effective means of control without the "emotions" bit. I think that's why narc parents choose moments when they seem to be the kind of parents you'd always hoped for. It's switch and bait of the worst kind because it continually raises your hopes only to dash them down again.

TobedtoMNandfart, you deserved better. 💐

Well it feels like an attack @Gamble66.

They don't have access to my children. My F occasionally sends a text which is sometimes replied to. The world is not an ideal place. We do the best we can whilst taking into account the views of others directly involved : my DC & DH.

I have done a lot to protect them.

You feal attacked because you know deep down its wrong and that even limited contact has potential for abuse and escalation.

Gamble66 please don’t double down, the OP is clearly struggling with all of this, suggesting she’s complicit in abusing her kids isn’t going to help her.

Actually spelling it out might help her as she is still concerned about looking 'controlling' etc rather than understanding who gives a fuck what others think just do what's best for your children - When you have been subjected to narcassictic parenting it invades your whole thinking.

Gamble, OP really doesn't need it "spelling out". She knows and that is why she is struggling. I am the child of a narc parent and enabling parent too and I know just how conflicted my sister is as both a daughter and a mother. OP isn't alone in that.

You really are not helping, you know, so why are you doing this?

Because I have seen a child pulled into the narsasistic grandparent - alienated from her mother and farther through her late teens and twenties. She had a few MH issues but these became a full blown eating disorder which she was pursuaded needed no medical intervention and that her then imposed 'caring' responsibilities were more important than her own self care or her education. She is now mid 39's with a body damaged by long term Anorexia and was written out of thier will because she was hospitalised x

Gamble I’m really sorry about your experience, that’s horrendous.

The OP knows she’s the victim of narc/enabler parents, she knows the damage it causes. The guilt is horrendous.

Let’s all support each other?

I think it is reasonable and responsible to ask the OP to reflect on the boundaries that she has decided to put in place for her children. She doesn’t have to justify them to anyone - but other posters can share their own personal experiences or sign post to the current thinking around this issue.

The OP may have decided that it is only texts, phone calls, gifts, days out, sleepovers, holidays away (without her) and the frequency / quantity. It is up to her to decide where to draw this line considering the risk to her children, herself and the whole family dynamic and the energy required to be vigilant.

I've not read all the responses but on this first page you have said something I STRONGLY disagree with.

Your DM DID NOT create him. Hes manipulated her to such an extent you are blaming HER when you should he blaming HIM.

He has manipulated her. For years. A common tactic of the male narc.

I do blame him. I have sympathy for my M as he is abusive. But she has let me down massively.

@Gamble66 it might surprise you but you haven't actually told me anything that I didn't already know.
I appreciate that you have experience of this but I did find your first post aggressive. Thx to others for having my back.

He abused you. You don't need to label him a narcissist for that to be true. Or to try and give it more weight or validity. He abused you. End of.

Sadly our society doesn't understand abuse well, and understands domestic abuse by parents even less well. Good on you for pointing out your situation is domestic abuse. Sorry you've had to field such unhelpful and damaging comments instead of the support and understanding you deserve.

I actually think the tendency/trend to label every abuser a narcissist is really unhelpful and stems from the lack of understanding of abuse. It confuses matters and almost excuses their abuse like it's somehow not their fault.

Nothing you've described of his behaviour is any different to any other abuser. Just call it what it is - abuse.

He's not a narcissist first who's maybe delved into abuse, so "oh is it ok to still say he's abusive". First and foremost, he's an abuser who's committed abuse.

Any questions about narcissism are secondary to the fact he's abusive, and really irrelevant. It doesn't change his abuse and I can't see how it's good for you to give him this much headspace. The whole "narcissist" thing is just adding noise and confusion to something that is actually very simple.

Thanks. I hear you. The narcissist tag helped me initially to make sense of the situation. I realised, painfully, that whilst he pretended to he DID NOT CARE.
I am really trying now to shut this out as much as possible.

You are understandably still struggling to cone to terms with this - if you as an adult are confused about the boundaries - how do you expect your children to cope ? And unless you check every text as soon as they come in how do you think you can monitor exactly what is said and how often ?

Quite.