Stuck on holiday with toxic FIL

[LittleAndOften]

I'm on holiday for a week with PILs and I'm struggling. MIL is lovely but FIL is difficult. I'm struggling more and more to be around him since DH revealed how much he bullied, emotionally and physically abused him as a child and teenager, the effects of which have recently come to the fore as DH has finally started to work through his past traumas. FIL also abused elder SIL, to an even worse degree and she has permanent MH problems as a result.

FIL has a dark, oppressive presence. I learnt quite early on that he wears his right wing daily fail politics on his sleeve and doesn't question what he reads. He used to make snide remarks about public sector workers (DH and me) but stopped after a drunken rant at me for which he was made to apologise by MIL. He didn't understand why, though. His beliefs and values remain at odds with ours. This week he has been making subtly snide remarks about what I eat (I'm 30 wks pg). I'm struggling to bite my tongue.

He's complaining a lot on this holiday. He has the news on tv all day and just sits there, dominating the main living space space but not interacting. He has no social skills and frequently says the wrong thing, including being insulting (he thinks he's being funny). He's a very angry man inside and I am constantly vigilant around him and ds (3), despite them having a good relationship (so far). We've had to intervene a few times when FIL has made inappropriate/heavy handed remarks to ds. This concerns me going forward. He's not an outwardly nasty man, I think he does try, but having been abused himself as a child (DH recently told me) and having become a very young parent as a teenager, he is clueless when it comes to relationships and human interaction. I'm finding the constant vigilance around him and ds tough going.

PILs have been together since they were teens (pregnancy forced early marriage) and are co-dependent, despite evidently disliking each other and bickering all the time. They can't live with each other, can't live without. DH adores his mum and would never go nc because it would leave her isolated. The PILs have no friends, do not go out and do not socialise. Everywhere they've been so far this week they've been negative about (even though they didn't even get out of the car at several of the places they went to!). They constantly snipe and wind each other up.

We went out all day today and deliberately chose activities they wouldn't like so we'd have time apart. But the evenings are so tedious and the atmosphere so negative. FIL is staying up really late and getting up late in the morning, making it difficult for us to get out anywhere before midday if we try to include them. He has no clue how his behaviour affects others.

FIL has also been in poor health for some time (heart and digestive conditions) but he isn't proactive about his wellbeing which is frustrating as DH is medical and FIL takes advantage, rather than managing his own needs properly. Feeling unwell is probably making him even more grumpy, tbh.

So I'm seeking advice on how to cope with the rest of this holiday (5 days left in a cottage together) and also how to be around FIL going forward (they live around the corner from us). I find it increasingly hard to be near someone who has caused DH so much pain and the atmosphere here is awful right now. I've got myself to the point of being nice and civil, but not inviting interaction. I don't trust him around DS and my hands are tied with regards to DH's family's dynamic.

Whose idea was the holiday??
It sounds hellish. Carry on making plans that are very child-focused, require an early start, and present it as a fait accompli - "we'll be going off to Wherever at 9.30, though we understand that might be a bit early for you! " , keep it bright and breezy and hope the ILs don't join you. Stop biting your tongue when your FIL makes mean comments to you, do the classic of repeating back what he said, in a loud voice, raising an eyebrow. Both go to bed really early as you are SO tired. Then seriously discuss whether it's possible to move house well away from them.

Thanks @maslinpan it's MIL's treat for us before baby 2 arrives! She booked it about 6 months ago and has been so excited but the reality is v different from the dream.

If we moved house they'd follow us. They've moved after DH everywhere he's lived. I think they are both afraid of what will happen when the other one dies. They'll be expecting DH to pick up the pieces for the one left behind, it's clear as day to me.

Thanks for the tips, it's softplay early tomorrow for us 😂

Softplay should be a very useful deterrent! But it sounds like this problem is part of something much bigger and darker, if your DH had such a wretched childhood and is unable to achieve any separation from his parents. It's awful that they have followed him with each house move, how on earth does he deal with that? Is he able to talk to his mum with any honesty, or has he been ground down over the years?
For a week, you can grit your teeth and get through somehow, but it sounds like there's no respite in sight.

He's actually had two heart to hearts with her about his upbringing in the past few weeks. So much has come out that he never knew and thought was his fault, it's heartbreaking. He found out how much she tried to protect him, and part of that was her holding back information (she acknowledges that was a mistake), but she has been controlled by FIL since she was 16, she's no idea how to be without him. Better the devil you know, I suppose.

This history is all still pretty raw for DH and by proxy, for me. I knew bits before, but not this much. It's shocking. I think DH in part feels protective of MIL, and doesn't want to leave her isolated with FIL. My only hope is that with DS being 3 days a week in nursery now, and baby due shortly, we won't have much time to see them. They don't look after DS much anyway due to their health, so I guess that's something..

I think it's good that the two of them have talked honestly, although it is obviously painful. However, if your DH is a kind son who wants to protect his mum, it is worth asking at what cost. Does it mean he will always feel obliged to remain geographically close to them, which by the sounds of it means seeing both of them if they are so co-dependent? If so, that's a huge burden for him. Ok, his mum may have been controlled by her husband over many years, but that doesn't mean she wasn't aware of the various abuses and didn't do enough to get away from the situation. As a parent, you need to protect your child from harm.

You're absolutely right and DH has said to me on many occasions they should have divorced years ago. I'm sure with MIL it's fear that's kept her there - of the unknown, of independence etc. I find her incredibly frustrating as she could do so much more but has built a prison for herself. SIL has put herself out of reach through her own ill health and subsequent unreliability, so they all look to DH and he feels it.

We've always had plans to move to another part of the country (once dcs are older), so I guess time will tell on that front. I wouldn't put it past the PILs to follow as DH is their prop. Maybe we should become travelling hobos...

he is clueless when it comes to relationships and human interaction

This is a telling line in your post OP. Biting of tongues and being civil, while secretly seething inside only makes everyone feel awful and continues to enable your FILs behaviour. I'd go the opposite way, and politely bu firmly call him out every single time.

DH and I have discussed how we manage FIL as DS gets older and more challenging. We're both extremely wary. MIL has assured DH that when they do have DS she never leaves him alone with FIL and DH has told them if anything ever happened they'd never see DS again. So that's something. Stuff has come out this holiday though that makes me uneasy (FIL shouted at DS when he dropped his ice cream tub on the floor twice. FIL thought it was a behaviour thing - it wasn't and I said so) I'm going to do what I can to minimise contact when we get back. I just won't suggest anything.

@Userplusnumbers I honestly don't know how to do that. I'm naturally non-confrontational and so much is subtle and hard to pinpoint. I might ask for the news to go off tomorrow... God why does that feel terrifying?!

Is there any chance that MIL could do the Freedom Programme? Or download the books on a smartphone from Amazon? Would Mil be open to go for counselling herself?

A very kind and capable psychotherapist once told that 'hurt people, hurt people'. In other words people who have been abused and hurt and have rationalised/internalised/denied the abuse often go on to abuse others - or "sins of the fathers visited upon the sons, even unto fourth and fifth generations" according to the King James bible. It applies to mothers, too. It explains why abused people can go on to abuse others. When I asked her why all the people who were abused don't go on to abuse in their turn, she told me that healing is always possible if people are ready/able to face dealing with the abuse they suffered and haven't buried it out of reach.

I was really glad to hear that, as both my dm and her dsis were abused. Only difference is dsis didn't have children for fear of turning out like either her dsis or her dm, and my dm procured both my aunt and me to be sexually abused forming part of a paedophile ring in Prenton/Birkenhead in the 1920s/30s as the family moved there in 1926/7.

Looking at the dynamics of abuse is horrid, I know for a fact that on the maternal side of my family, it goes back to my ggm born in about 1850, and stopped with me in my generation and my aunt in the one before as she made sure she didn't have any children for fear of turning out like her dsis, dm and dgm. Thankfully, my 'd'gm died the year before I was born - to think of her egging on my dm would have been a nightmare.

I did think of becomming a psychotherapist myself, but life decided otherwise and DD was born and when she was 9 we left the UK. The therapy I did with the psychotherapist went so deep that it was eligible for accreditation as part of training - she'd been an ICU and theatre sister and really knew her stuff.

They're probably dated now, but John Bradshaw's book on codependency is really readable, and Charles Whitfield's book called, I think, Boundaries and Relationships and also Healing the Child Within.

One of the 2, can't remember which gives the factors which make up narcissism and there's a healthy version and unhealthy version. My 'd'm got 100% for the unhealthy version with I think the verdict in the book that it's impossible to have a healthy relationship with someone so extreme. Got me off the hook as she'd disowned me 4 years earlier. Round about this time I spent about £1000 on books dealing with all the things that had affected me, however from my own experience and may not apply to anyone else reading this, I found understanding with my head wasn't enough, it has to come from the heart - and that's beyond difficult.

There's also the Penny Parks books on healing the inner child, but they aimed at survivors of sexual abuse, so probably not appropriate. Its about the adult self writing letters to the inner child and the child writing back, possibly using the non-dominant hand for the letters from the child. At the time I couldn't get into it, as personal circs didn't allow it.

Wow newtb. I am in awe of what you have achieved in bringing this cycle to a full stop in your family. An extraordinary achievement.

Thank you @newtb and I'm so sorry you've had to go through so much trauma. You sound incredibly strong and knowledgeable, I'll certainly look up those resources (although I'll signpost DH to them and suggest he does it for MIL, as MIL and I don't have that kind of relationship).

It's interesting what you say about the generations. DH is petrified of turning out like his dad and is doing everything he can to take control of those character traits he sees in himself. He found out that FIL's parents were alcoholics, the father left and the mum abused FIL, telling him repeatedly hed never been wanted (he was the youngest) and palming him off on relatives. So it seems FIL had no experience of positive family relationships, then finding himself a young father he just did the only thing he knew how - extreme discipline, fear and total control. Apparently when SIL had therapy this all started to come out and FIL was totally oblivious to the harm he'd caused.

Another day, another snide comment about my eating. Honestly, we went out for the whole day, then went out again for dinner and as soon as we get in the door in the dig comes, like FIL had been waiting all day! What a fuckwit.

Stop keeping quiet when he is rude. You don't have to placate him at all.

@Disfordarkchocolate I don't know how to respond without sounding over-sensitive. He said "have you managed to fill yourself up" which could be innocuous if seen from a different light. It's easy to deny from his pov. What would you say?

Stop biting your tongue and going along with it. Every time you do he thinks his stupid remarks are valid.
He has an illness, doesn't mean he can't be civil.

He said "have you managed to fill yourself up"

Say no actually I haven't, I'm eating for two you know.
Give what you get.

Bloody hell, your FIL is an arsehole. Don't be nice or restrain yourself at the next bitchy comment - let rip! Or if you are less stroppy than me, just repeat what he said, slowly and clearly, looking a bit puzzled, and pause, then say, I'm not quite sure what you mean, FIL, can you explain? Make him own his words, and make everyone else appreciate what he says. If he ensures he only does this without an audience, then still let his words hang in the air for a bit. Think of it like rubbing a puppy's nose in it's crap when it's had an accident and you are training it.

This is horrific!

You and dh would really benefit from reading up on narcissism and toxic families and abuse generally.

I recommend

outofthefog.website

Have I read that right that you leave DS with them? Without you or dh there? Why?!

Even YOU are extremely apologetic and minimising of all that's happened and excuse BOTH of them. I don't understand that.

"DH has told them if anything ever happened they'd never see DS again." I'm sorry but quite honestly I think you and dh are being MASSIVELY irresponsible here!

I have an abusive father too, my dd has NEVER been left alone with either him or my mother and that included my mother has never babysat dd (she's 18 now) as quite honestly I don't trust her because she did nothing to protect us! By the time he "does something" the damage to your child is done!

I appreciate all the rest is difficult but I really don't think that's acceptable to take the risk of him hurting ds.

Re the rude remarks I'd just say "how rude!" "That was unnecessarily harsh" don't let him away with that crap!

Thanks all. I don't disagree with you @graphista, all of FIL's poor and abusive parenting happened a long time ago and the extent of it has only just come to light. Whilst he's shown glimpses of the character underneath, I've never felt he was a threat to DS, possibly because he's physically quite frail, and because he defers to MIL when it comes to DS. Recent revelations are definitely making me reevaluate PILs having DS though and I will be discussing it with DH when we get home.

As for standing up to the comments. I'm not sure how, but I won't be letting the next one slide...

I’m sorry , he comes over as an utter prick and has been enabled by a woman being spineless. I think you have to ride it out and make sure you don’t go on holiday with them again. Have you tried taking your MIL out on her own yourself woman to woman and having a kind but concerned word? Say you are concerned, is she ok , be honest say your FILs behaviour towards her upsets you at times, phrase it nicely, don’t say he is an utter right wing arse etc. She may get defensive, she may be greatful anyone has even noticed and let it flood out, who knows.

Definitely stop biting your tongue. You say he doesn’t take care of his health so I’d think of a few pointed comments there ‘are you worried about my healthy eating? Really you should focus on your pack a day don’t you think?) and have a few eating specific responses prepared. Have you filled yourself up? -No, not even remotely. Is it so hard to realise you don’t understand being 8 months pregnant? Or, no not even remotely. I’m starting to worry that you starved mil while she was pregnant.

FIL is a bully. When he says something snide, ask him What do you mean. He will get fed up with trying to answer and not sound too nasty. You can say it in a very quiet and reasonable way if you don't like confrontation - just keep saying it.