Stuck on holiday with toxic FIL

[LittleAndOften]

I'm on holiday for a week with PILs and I'm struggling. MIL is lovely but FIL is difficult. I'm struggling more and more to be around him since DH revealed how much he bullied, emotionally and physically abused him as a child and teenager, the effects of which have recently come to the fore as DH has finally started to work through his past traumas. FIL also abused elder SIL, to an even worse degree and she has permanent MH problems as a result.

FIL has a dark, oppressive presence. I learnt quite early on that he wears his right wing daily fail politics on his sleeve and doesn't question what he reads. He used to make snide remarks about public sector workers (DH and me) but stopped after a drunken rant at me for which he was made to apologise by MIL. He didn't understand why, though. His beliefs and values remain at odds with ours. This week he has been making subtly snide remarks about what I eat (I'm 30 wks pg). I'm struggling to bite my tongue.

He's complaining a lot on this holiday. He has the news on tv all day and just sits there, dominating the main living space space but not interacting. He has no social skills and frequently says the wrong thing, including being insulting (he thinks he's being funny). He's a very angry man inside and I am constantly vigilant around him and ds (3), despite them having a good relationship (so far). We've had to intervene a few times when FIL has made inappropriate/heavy handed remarks to ds. This concerns me going forward. He's not an outwardly nasty man, I think he does try, but having been abused himself as a child (DH recently told me) and having become a very young parent as a teenager, he is clueless when it comes to relationships and human interaction. I'm finding the constant vigilance around him and ds tough going.

PILs have been together since they were teens (pregnancy forced early marriage) and are co-dependent, despite evidently disliking each other and bickering all the time. They can't live with each other, can't live without. DH adores his mum and would never go nc because it would leave her isolated. The PILs have no friends, do not go out and do not socialise. Everywhere they've been so far this week they've been negative about (even though they didn't even get out of the car at several of the places they went to!). They constantly snipe and wind each other up.

We went out all day today and deliberately chose activities they wouldn't like so we'd have time apart. But the evenings are so tedious and the atmosphere so negative. FIL is staying up really late and getting up late in the morning, making it difficult for us to get out anywhere before midday if we try to include them. He has no clue how his behaviour affects others.

FIL has also been in poor health for some time (heart and digestive conditions) but he isn't proactive about his wellbeing which is frustrating as DH is medical and FIL takes advantage, rather than managing his own needs properly. Feeling unwell is probably making him even more grumpy, tbh.

So I'm seeking advice on how to cope with the rest of this holiday (5 days left in a cottage together) and also how to be around FIL going forward (they live around the corner from us). I find it increasingly hard to be near someone who has caused DH so much pain and the atmosphere here is awful right now. I've got myself to the point of being nice and civil, but not inviting interaction. I don't trust him around DS and my hands are tied with regards to DH's family's dynamic.

He is a bully. Just spoke to DH and we might go home tomorrow (thank god). I'm struggling physically and he's not happy. We certainly won't be repeating this holiday.

I can also see a serious conversation with DH and MIL coming up where we have to be open and honest about FIL. Thank you all for pushing me towards this. DH needs to see that allowing FIL access to DS, even with MIL present, exposes him to this toxicity. If she's still not standing up to him, and still not picking him up on his behaviour, aside from her own part in their constant bickering, it's a massive problem. Bigger than I realised. I hadn't fully grasped before to what extent the family facilitate his behaviour by their silence. They're still afraid of him, even now. Having seen this week how negative, how grumpy, how snappy, how incapable he is of managing any social situation, let alone a child playing up, I cannot put DS into that environment. Even if DS loves him and they play nicely together, what happens when I'm not there? And what happens when DS is challenging? It makes me sad to say it, and it will be even sadder and more difficult for DH to hear, but I can't trust MIL to protect DS.

No way should you let them do childcare, mil can’t protect your ds 100% of the time.

Honestly, how have you not just confronted fil and told him to shut the fuck up?

Maybe this will be the prompt for your MIL to leave FIL

Eugh he sounds like a horror. Whilst it is clearly an effect of his own abusive upbringing, his time has passed to make serious changes to his behaviour, he won’t change so there’s no point fighting that lost cause. Personally He would have been told to fuck off a long time ago if it were me but I’m not you, cantankerous old people,don’t wash with me I can’t stand them especially if he is as toxic as you say.

Just be very careful to not be seen as the driving force behind how you and your DH and DS interact with the PILs because as soon as he senses it you’ve had it. Your poor MIL having to put up with this monster all these years.

Well we came home a day early and the relief is palpable! MIL wil never leave FIL, they're both in their 70s and not in good health - independence is way off their radar.

I actually had a run in with FIL this morning. He shouted at DS and I defended him (Ds was putting something in the kitchen bin as I'd told him to, we didn't know there was no liner in it as FIL was changing it). FIL had just kept shouting no, no, No, stop! NO! at DS, louder and louder, but not explaining what or why. I ran into the kitchen, saw what was happening, stopped the shouting, explaining DS didn't know about the liner, and it wasn't his fault. FIL was so surprised at my reaction and said 'it's alright, it's not a big deal' he genuinely seems to have no idea how loud, aggressive and scary he is, or how unacceptable it is. I think I might be the first person to question his angry shoutiness in 50 years! I also noted that MIL didn't bat an eyelid - that's pretty revealing. FIL was grumpy with me the rest of the morning. It's clear to me as never before how important it is for me and DH to protect DS. I was seething. I don't care why he does it - I won't have it!

Operation open-their-eyes starts this weekend with DH. And a talk with MIL will have to follow but it might be best coming from DH. I'll make excuses for not visiting them in the meantime.

You need to see this situation as totally toxic 100% of the time - 24/7.

You are all hyper alert, walking on egg shells waiting for, or trying to avoid, the next eruption from that vile bully c**t of FIL who controls you all and dictates the hanging black atmosphere with his mood.

It is polluting all of you - including your unborn baby - even when he is asleep you are anxious about when he will get up, even when you are out you are stressed about coming back.

Your toddler (and unborn baby) will see, hear, feel, absorb and internalise all of this - without the adult rational mindset that you have.

This will be causing them deep emotional injury - they will be scared of this man and will sense and be confused and distressed that their Mum and Dad are on tender hooks.

Don’t expose your precious children to this polluted, toxic atmosphere.

ClareIsland I don't think there is any need to make OP feel bad about herself like that; I feel your post was uneccesarily harsh, considering that OP is clearly evaluating the situation in a very clear-sighted and determined way.

Sadly all children (and us before them) will get and indeed have been exposed to a bit of toxicity - OP is dealing with it, but you know, they'll all be fine. She's on it.

Will they? Headlines today:

“Stress in pregnancy 'makes child personality disorder more likely'”

We need to stop the inter generational emotional trauma.

www.itv.com/news/2019-09-06/stress-in-pregnancy-heightens-risk-of-personality-disorders-in-children/

The OP doesn’t need the large scientific study though as it is right here in this family:

FIL also abused elder SIL, to an even worse degree and she has permanent MH problems as a result.

My intention was not to make the OP feel bad - but the raise the alarm so that she does not end up learning to tolerate and absorb this situation which will have consequences for her unborn child and toddler.

By not saying anything to him directly, it's enabling him. He can carry on his actions and no one is questioning him. You've mentioned a few times about sitting down with DH & MIL; your FIL should be there to. This is about him and his behaviour. He is a bully and he needs to be tackled head on so to speak. A lot of excuses are made for his behaviour. He is an adult, he knows right from wrong regardless of what has went on his life. It's time to shut it down.

What would you say?

"No I haven't had enough yet but it is very sweet of you to be concerned!"

Everytime he says something like that, reply with innocence - it will really get his goat if his barbs haven't hit home!

Well done for tackling him OP. But it’s clear he doesn’t like being corrected.

Did you feel better and less stressed after having dealt with him?

You could choose to have zero tolerance and call him out on every single thing.

You don’t need to have a unique answer for every challenge - just something generic

What do you mean by that?
Is that what you think?
Did you mean to be so rude/angry/irrational?

Just hold a mirror up to him....if you can be bothered. And he doesn’t get too nasty....

Well done OP for taking the first step - it does sound as though you've had a bit of a light bulb moment.

Unfortunately you've all become conditioned to FIL (and MIL) and it will take a lot of stamina going forward, but you've seen that he CAN be corrected and stopped in his tracks by standing up to him. So what if he's "grumpy" with you afterwards - you need to start protecting your family from this man, even if it means sidelining your MIL to some extent. She may have known nothing else since she was little more than a child, but we all have choices.

So much strength to your dh and you.

Well done for finding your voice with this abusive man.

I'm always reading this on mumsnet. Posters going on holiday with toxic people.. why the fuck did anyone think this was a good idea.
Wild horses wouldn't get me on a holiday with my parents. I see them rarely on my terms only. Sod that.

I've come across threads on here where the OP is holidaying with the PILs. Is that a usual thing in the UK? We would never holiday with our ILs, it just seems very inappropriate, and no one would even think to do that anyway. I cannot think of a worse way to spend a holiday than with ILs - no matter how much I love them and get on with them. I think chewing broken glass or having a root canal without anaesthetic sounds better. Probably because at least you won't be chewing or having dental for 24/7 days straight. I just don't get it. I certainly would not be going on a holiday with them again (or with anyone apart from DH and DC tbh). I also question why you and and DH are so close to them and allow them to see your DC so much. I would be far too scared to leave DC in the same room as FIL, tbh I would limit contact between DC and them.

I love my parents & MIL (saying nothing about FIL) but I'd sooner take an angle grinder to my feet than go on holiday with them.

Its pretty usual imo - houses and households are small in the uk but holidays are culturally prioritised. A holiday is often the only time there's space for the kind of time with inlaws that in other cultures would either happen by living with inlaws or visiting them.

I did ten years of hols with the inlaws and didn't enjoy them much but they are nice. Never holiday with this lot again.

OP, please ignore the harshness of my post. I had not RTFT (I am making a habit of this today ), if I had, I would not have written the bit about your DC with him that way, since there was only around 40 posts I 'winged it' and wrongly assumed there wouldn't be and developments in that time I'm sorry.

Good luck with how you proceed, you and both your DH appear to be on the same page, and that is the most important first step.

(Now I'm off to force myself to write out 20 lines: "I must RTFT before responding")

*any developments

@SaraNade no worries, thank you for being honest. No developments yet, but will update as and when.

We wouldn't normally go on holiday with either set of GPs. We went caravanning in June, just the 3 of us. When MIL invited us for this week away, we overlooked, or underestimated, FIL's impact on the week, in spite of us being out as much as possible. Won't be making that mistake again! Establishing distance going forward will be tricky as they live so close to us, but today I've ensured DS has activities Mon-Fri for the term ahead, so that's a start. We're going to be very busy!

Glad you're home.

Physical distance helps to establish an emotional one but it can be achieved without.

I'm Nc with my toxic sister and for the 1st 3 years of that we lived 2 streets away from each other and Would often see each other in town or on bus etc but I had made it clear I wanted nothing more to do with her.

I was very nervous at first as she has acted criminally excessively at times, but when I told her and parents mum said to me she was threatening to come to my house and "batter down the door if I have to" to make me speak to her (I gave her the reasons why absolutely no need for further discussion) I've been (as many of us are) pretty passive in dealing with her in the past and I'm not generally given to involving authorities but I stated quite clearly if she DARED turn up and certainly if she acted aggressively (one of the reasons was repeated physical assault) I would not hesitate to call the police. And I think that stopped her from trying to speak to me or approach me in public.

People who've not had to deal with this kind of shit often give it "but they're your mum/dad/sibling/faaaaamily" 🙄

No! Just because I'm related to someone doesn't mean I have to put up with being treated like crap by them!