Manipulative or abusive?

[Feelingconfusedandunsure]

Bear with me because this is difficult to explain...

I’ve been with my DH for 12 years, married for 9, 2 young DCs. He’s a decent person, good job, loves his DCs, does lots around the house, etc. Our relationship has been rocky for the last couple of years, we are probably both to blame for not putting the effort it, not communicating well, etc.

The one thing that’s really bothering me at the moment is that I have been reading up about Emotional Abuse and sometimes I think he borders on it. I’ve spend the last few years thinking it’s something wrong with me but I actually feel like I have ‘woke up’ and the way he acts is actually very manipulative.

My question is are these things just the sign of a manipulator/control freak type or are they actually emotional abuse? I feel like there’s a very fine line between the two...

• Jumps straight on the defensive at any hint of an argument, looks to find some way to blame me/others.
• Twists everything around in arguments, for example the other day he overtook a car at a stupid moment and nearly trapped us between this car and a bridge at high speed (it was poor planning he’s not really an aggressive driver) the car pulled out into our lane right in front of us and I literally thought we were going to crash so I screamed (kids were in car so I panicked) - apparently he was fine and me screaming is what the problem was (even though that was after he tried to kill us....) - he eventually apologised as he saw how terrified I was but it was still an “ I’m sorry but”
• Can’t argue with him because he’s never wrong = circular arguments where I eventually give up!
• As above, never apologises or if eventually forced to it’s always an “I’m sorry but”, even to the kids. It’s like he thinks taking responsibility is weakness or something.
• when trying to prove a point he says “I’ve talked to other and EVERYONE thinks the same” when clearly he’s actually probably asked one other person.
• brings up things to make me feel bad if he’s losing an argument, for example we had a huge row about his family a couple of months ago and in the middle he decided to tell me I “needed to lose weight” (apparently just because he wants me to be healthy - I’m a size 12-14 and perfectly happy with my body) - completely irrelevant to the argument but he does subtle versions of this all the time.
• Walks off mumbling stuff when he’s cross, or mumbles stuff under his breath when he’s annoyed with me, even in front of kids.
• literally never listens to me the first time I say something, which means I repeat everything, even the mundane shit which drives me crazy!
• he’s like a dog with a bone about anything he wants to do, badgers me until I give in just to get him to stop going on.
• all this is worse if I’m ever ill/vulnerable, there is zero warmth from him.
• uses emotional blackmail about a seriously ill family member to make me feel bad about anything, even things seemingly unrelated.
• Zero sex - root of this is his PE problems he refuses to get help with or actually even acknowledge is a problem it’s my fault somehow - I’ve given up!
• picks on semantics during arguments and blows it out of proportion- eg “so that means you think I’m the shittest husband ever” etc
• talks to me through the kids - this is a weird one...I can’t quite describe it...a mundane version would be “mummy will take you to get dressed now” - no discussion with me I could be doing something...it weird.
• hates me to sit and relax, constantly has to come up with jobs for me.
• thinks he is Cinderella even though we do equal around the house - I should somehow be grateful he does it and my efforts count for nothing!
• if I call him out on anything I’m ‘nagging’ or ‘starting an argument’ - how can you communicate with that?
• denies he’s said or done something - sometimes straight after doing it but you can see he genuinely believes himself - it’s crazy making!!
• I feel like the worst version of myself when he is around...not sure that’s his responsibility but it’s how I feel most of the time...

Wow writing that down it sounds soooo bad!!

Is this just control freak/passive aggressive behaviour or borderline emotional abuse?

I’m not afraid of him, he doesn’t control what I do or ever stop me spending time with other people, I travel with work a lot he’s supportive of my career, family, etc. He doesn’t fall into an abuser box in any of those ways just the way he communicates is draining...

Any thoughts?

Yes definitely get that counselling going as soon as possible. And with your H, I'd try to disengage as much as you can. I don't suppose you and the children can get away for a few days? Your parents maybe?

If not, try to spend as little time with him as possible - take the children out, if he's in the living room you go and do something in the kitchen, for example. And practice grey rock - protect your own mental health.

I find fighting back and not tolerating the bullshit to be exhausting and frustrating. I didn't find it sustainable in the long term. Having said that, pretending not to be affected by him is equally draining I think all you can do is seek the counselling, and get yourself ready to leave. Starting to make the preparations to go does make you feel a bit better - knowing that there is an end in sight.

Thanks everyone, you are all right I need to stop engaging. As much as it destroys my soul to not stand up for myself it just wears me out and I need all the strength I can muster to get myself out of this situation.

I’ve been reading about cycles of abuse and this latest “I’m sorry, I will get help” saga (but still not even trying to understand what the problem is....🤔🤷🏻‍♀️) is just all part of it. It was almost comical when last night he asked if I wanted to lie with him on the couch...wtaf?! It’s like he thinks that I should forget it all now he’s said he’ll go and get some therapy....even up to a few months ago I would have probably fallen for this but I am not this time!

I didn’t manage to call the EAP thing through work to arrange counselling yet, I wasn’t alone yesterday so couldn’t do it, I will try and get in touch with them on Monday. He’s away a few days this week so that will give me some respite and time to gather stuff together...!

Is it weird that i’m a little afraid that I’ll see a counsellor and they’ll tell me that it isnt emotional abuse and/or that there’s something wrong with me, my reactions, etc? I feel nervous about it! I definitely know I need to go alone though.

Is it weird that i’m a little afraid that I’ll see a counsellor and they’ll tell me that it isnt emotional abuse and/or that there’s something wrong with me

I think it's a common feeling after being gaslit for so long. He has brainwashed you into thinking that you're the problem/you over react/he isn't as bad as some abusers/you're imagining things. It's very clear to anyone looking at this from the outside in that he IS emotionally abusive. If your counsellor cannot see that then you need to find one who does. I know it can be expensive but could you look into finding a counsellor that specialises in domestic abuse and trauma? I get free telephone counselling through work so get a different counsellor each time and it can be hit and miss.

Have a look at Lisa Romano as she has some good videos about responding vs reacting. and also about healing from abusive relationships. I think him going away for a while is a perfect time for you to really focus on healing yourself from the abuse, as emotional abuse can be just (if not more) damaging as physical (and I say that as someone who has experienced both).

I know its unpopular on MN to 'label' people but I think your P is a covert narcissist and theres lots of videos on this on youtube and how to deal with their abuse tactics and how to heal.

Little shamen is one of my favourites

Don't worry about the Counsellor thinking it's you. No one on here who has read the thread thinks it's you. I was with a PA covert narcissist for 27 years, my hair fell out and ended up really thin with stress and he still blamed me for everything. The adrenaline and heart racing is common too because you're so used to feeling like you never know when they are suddenly going to blame you for something. Mine even used to blame me that his hair was sticking up! I fucking believed this shit for years simply because I'd been conditioned to feel constantly to blame for everything. I'm 3 1/2 years out and I've never felt happier as an adult (was 17 when I met him). I had hypno-psychotherapy when I left which worked wonders for breaking the emotional bonds and allowing me to see clearly for what felt like the first time. Good luck 💐

Oh and grey rock really works.

Sounds like a narcassist to be honest. Your best friend one minute 'supporting you in your career' etc but emotionally abusive the next. You never know what person you're going to get. It's a losing battle trying to get your emotions across to somebody who never thinks they're wrong, or unwilling to admit to mistakes. Get out, get your children safe. It's not a healthy environment, for you or the children, sounds as if he has sucked every inch of your soul and in return you now lack serious self confidence, bottom line is nobody should make you feel that way. Good luck but put yourself and your children first, you deserve it!!

My DH is like this and I’m watching my limit. Don’t have kids but I want them and I’m in my late 30s so have been trying to make it work as otherwise I don’t think it will happen for me. Had enough now as you might be able to tell from my username!

Hi everyone, just a little update. We are still playing the ‘game’ of him thinking in his head he’s now wonderful and fully redeemed and me being grey rock and not engaging. He is astounded that I’m not suddenly jumping from the rooftops and ever so grateful. I literally cannot bear him to touch me, it makes me physically recoil, yet he still thinks he “just needs me to stop being cold and give him some affection” and everything will be hunky dory (wtf).

All this, but then telling me the other day after me trying to have an honest conversation about the situation that “he doesn’t have any feelings for me and doesn’t find me attractive anymore” then the next few days sending me endless text messages telling me how much he loved me (this is irritating me even more, why not just talk to my face like an adult?!). Then he come out with an absolute gold classic last night, he said “you are a hard person to love”, and not in a “I think you are...” way it was definitely in a character assassination type way iyswim. I just stopped engaging then and turned over and went to sleep (to the sound of huffs and puffs).

Seriously wtf does he want from me? He does things like this and then the next minute wants to carry on as if nothing has happened. He only seems to want to engage in talk about the relationship over text which is just weird so I’ve just stopped responding to that, which I think is what forced the conversation at bedtime.

As you can tell I’m just in a state of confusion and not really sure what move to make next really. Just finding it increasingly difficult to pretend to be fine. Ugh my heads a mess!!

The rhythm of the dynamic has changed and he is confused. He is used to yanking your chain to get you into conflict and anger in order to emotionally exhaust and erode you.

Now you are grey rock, detaching and not reacting as he expects he has become unsettled - and it looks like his nice / nasty cycles are coming closer together.

Interesting that he texts the “nice” stuff but reserves the nasty stuff for face to face for maximum harm. The “nice” stuff isn’t real. He is probably seething when he presses send.

Keep reading and researching abusive men. Then keep detached and stepped back to see the cliched classic patterns.

Then decide you intolerable this is to your MH and what this dynamic takes from your focus in your DC and decide what to do next and when.

Thanks @CIareIsland and yes I defo think he is confused! Now that I have had my eyes opened and have been educating myself on emotional abuse, etc. It’s almost comical (if it wasn’t so bloody serious that is!) how much he is confirming to the cliche And I can see it so clearly now, I can’t believe I have been blind to it for so long when it feels so obvious now!

I think you are right about the nice/nasty cycles getting closer together, it’s like he can’t decide which side of that fence he wants to sit on at any given moment. The nice stuff definitely feels fake, like it’s from a script there is nothing heartfelt or personal, now I’m not even sure he’s capable. But of course I get accused of being the ‘cold’ one! lol It’s ridiculous the shit that I have put up with!

He is away for a couple of days now and I am looking forward to relaxing without his black cloud hanging over the house, I’m going to try and pop home from work and gather some papers to copy, etc while he is away (getting those ducks in a row before they mysteriously disappear!)

Good for you. You have dropped the rope and stepped back to see it for what it is.

Step back so more. Keep reading and researching - knowledge is power - and you have all of the power now. Pace yourself.

You're brilliant OP, you have managed to keep your cool and I bet inside his head he is going crazy wondering why his manipulative bullshit isn't working anymore. I know you shouldn't have fun with a narc but I cant help but laugh as he tries desperately to swing between different emotional abuse tactics trying to find something that gets to you.

It's scary how similar these types are, it feels sometimes like they all went to the same 'how to be a bastard' school.

I hope you manage to get some peace whilst he's away and have time to clear your head (as it sounds hard to even think straight with him around)

“you are a hard person to love”

He's doing classic projection there. What a horrible man.

OMG the nice/nasty cycles - I didn’t know that was an actual thing - thought it was just my H!

I’m feeling positive today! I’ve been home at lunchtime brought all the paperwork back in to work, i.e. bank statements, pension statements, etc and scanned and photocopied everything, i’ve left the copies in a locked drawer at work, then put it all back away at home.

I’ve also phoned the work counselling thing and awaiting a counsellor call back tomorrow evening (will have to make myself scarce for that!), they offer up to 6 sessions covered by work so hopefully that will be enough to get my head in a better space.

Meanwhile his declarations of love are getting more and more desperate and more and more ridiculous, he’s obviously shitting himself that he’s not getting a reaction. I can’t tell you how much better I feel for having copied all that stuff, he won’t be able to hide that or use it against me now!

Looking forward to an evening alone with the kiddos as he’s still away until tomorrow night - result!

I am cheering you on feeling - the balance of power has shifted.
You’ve got loads done on a practical level - miles ahead of him. Enjoy that satisfied feeling. You are in control.

He has lost and is totally powerless now but doesn’t yet know it yet.

The emotional part is important now - so take care of yourself.

Well done! It’s ups & downs but you can do it. Cheering you on over here x

You sound like you know the truth deep down.

I spent so much time wondering whether my STBEXH's behaviour was bad enough to be called 'abusive', but now I think that's an unhelpful way of looking at it. The quality of our marriages shouldn't be a race to the bottom.

If you feel continually lonely, silenced, not-quite-yourself, uncertain and anxious, then the relationship needs to end. It is irrelevant what you describe his behaviour as.

Just read your last post - well done.
Keep being ludicrously kind to yourself - you're transforming your life.

Hi everyone, I thought I would leave a quick update as you all helped me so much!

Things have moved on and we have talked at length about separation/divorce and agreed most things about splitting house, kids, etc. He is still flitting between being totally obnoxious and totally reasonable but he has at least stopped the guilt trips for now... it’s been an awful road to get to this point though with some pretty horrible things said by him. I feel like that head start I had getting my ducks in a row has paid dividends now, he keeps throwing stuff at me about money/custody stuff but I have answers and proof for everything which is leaving him pretty flummoxed!

I am finally seeing a counsellor this week, I’ve been waiting since early September for someone to become available in the local area so hopefully I can talk through everything and get everything clear in my head going forward. I mostly feel ok about it all now but do keep having moments of feeling guilt (kids), shame (what will everyone think) and worry (what will the future hold) but I guess this is the kind of stuff I will talk through with the counsellor.

Hope everyone else is getting on ok? How are things with you @RogelioAndXo and @moffa?