Manipulative or abusive?

[Feelingconfusedandunsure]

Bear with me because this is difficult to explain...

I’ve been with my DH for 12 years, married for 9, 2 young DCs. He’s a decent person, good job, loves his DCs, does lots around the house, etc. Our relationship has been rocky for the last couple of years, we are probably both to blame for not putting the effort it, not communicating well, etc.

The one thing that’s really bothering me at the moment is that I have been reading up about Emotional Abuse and sometimes I think he borders on it. I’ve spend the last few years thinking it’s something wrong with me but I actually feel like I have ‘woke up’ and the way he acts is actually very manipulative.

My question is are these things just the sign of a manipulator/control freak type or are they actually emotional abuse? I feel like there’s a very fine line between the two...

• Jumps straight on the defensive at any hint of an argument, looks to find some way to blame me/others.
• Twists everything around in arguments, for example the other day he overtook a car at a stupid moment and nearly trapped us between this car and a bridge at high speed (it was poor planning he’s not really an aggressive driver) the car pulled out into our lane right in front of us and I literally thought we were going to crash so I screamed (kids were in car so I panicked) - apparently he was fine and me screaming is what the problem was (even though that was after he tried to kill us....) - he eventually apologised as he saw how terrified I was but it was still an “ I’m sorry but”
• Can’t argue with him because he’s never wrong = circular arguments where I eventually give up!
• As above, never apologises or if eventually forced to it’s always an “I’m sorry but”, even to the kids. It’s like he thinks taking responsibility is weakness or something.
• when trying to prove a point he says “I’ve talked to other and EVERYONE thinks the same” when clearly he’s actually probably asked one other person.
• brings up things to make me feel bad if he’s losing an argument, for example we had a huge row about his family a couple of months ago and in the middle he decided to tell me I “needed to lose weight” (apparently just because he wants me to be healthy - I’m a size 12-14 and perfectly happy with my body) - completely irrelevant to the argument but he does subtle versions of this all the time.
• Walks off mumbling stuff when he’s cross, or mumbles stuff under his breath when he’s annoyed with me, even in front of kids.
• literally never listens to me the first time I say something, which means I repeat everything, even the mundane shit which drives me crazy!
• he’s like a dog with a bone about anything he wants to do, badgers me until I give in just to get him to stop going on.
• all this is worse if I’m ever ill/vulnerable, there is zero warmth from him.
• uses emotional blackmail about a seriously ill family member to make me feel bad about anything, even things seemingly unrelated.
• Zero sex - root of this is his PE problems he refuses to get help with or actually even acknowledge is a problem it’s my fault somehow - I’ve given up!
• picks on semantics during arguments and blows it out of proportion- eg “so that means you think I’m the shittest husband ever” etc
• talks to me through the kids - this is a weird one...I can’t quite describe it...a mundane version would be “mummy will take you to get dressed now” - no discussion with me I could be doing something...it weird.
• hates me to sit and relax, constantly has to come up with jobs for me.
• thinks he is Cinderella even though we do equal around the house - I should somehow be grateful he does it and my efforts count for nothing!
• if I call him out on anything I’m ‘nagging’ or ‘starting an argument’ - how can you communicate with that?
• denies he’s said or done something - sometimes straight after doing it but you can see he genuinely believes himself - it’s crazy making!!
• I feel like the worst version of myself when he is around...not sure that’s his responsibility but it’s how I feel most of the time...

Wow writing that down it sounds soooo bad!!

Is this just control freak/passive aggressive behaviour or borderline emotional abuse?

I’m not afraid of him, he doesn’t control what I do or ever stop me spending time with other people, I travel with work a lot he’s supportive of my career, family, etc. He doesn’t fall into an abuser box in any of those ways just the way he communicates is draining...

Any thoughts?

When you start getting your documentation, advice and so on together - the practical stuff - you'll probably feel a bit better; like you're taking back some control. I think, once your eyes are opened that they are manipulative, abusive, etc., then it's really difficult to go back to whatever you had before. Once you realise, it kills your feelings and really the only thing you can do is either stay knowing full well that he's not good for your mental wellbeing and be miserable, or do the hard thing and leave.

(We also have a big holiday in December, and the new year is my goal too - we really are living parallel lives! If you want any support, feel free to DM me.)

“I fee so angry now for putting up with this!! I like to think of myself as a strong independent woman...clearly not”

Exactly how I feel. The more I talk about things he’s done for 14 bloody years the more of a mug I feel. How did I not recognise this?

Reading your post I recognised elements of my husband. It can be really infuriating.

I think in the instance you gave of the walk, where you were worried about the boggy terrain and he wasn’t - I don’t think that’s emotional abuse.

I think that your position as the maternal part of this dynamic, naturally, is to be cautious and protective of the children. He was in a different mindset of not worrying about mud and bogs and wanting to explore instead.

Remember when we were kids and how boys used to climb trees and take risks that us girls thought were silly and dangerous? I kinda see that is what happened there in that interaction.

You’re both coming from different places. What I personally feel is sad about it, is that neither of you could see that about the other. That there was value in your cautious approach and that there was value in his adventurous approach.

I feel that perhaps the connection has been lost in your relationship. Perhaps he was someone who always used certain tactics to get his own way, perhaps he wasn’t. I really don’t know, as I’m not you nor him.

Whatever you decide to do. I wish you all the best.

Ignore Cloudy, he's been trolling a lot of relationship threads and telling women they are ridiculous for perfectly reasonable responses.

Yes OP, this is horrible, no one should talk to you like that. Someone who was saying something out of kindness or concern would not approach it like that. I've been with guys like this - they will break you. I am so much happier now!

Sorry - posted on wrong thread! (Disturbing how many emotionally abusive men there are out there).

@RogelioAndXo I wonder if we are married to the same person...lol. I agree, how can you possibly go back once your eyes have been opened? Hope all goes ok for you too, feel free to catch up on DM anytime too

@twentyeight12 I understand what you are saying and I know I can be stubborn too. I suppose what I was trying to say is sometimes I feel like he likes to almost ‘set up’ an argument so he can look like the good guy and push me out of the foursome iyswim. I’m probably not saying it very well over this, it comes across petty but in real life it very much feels like a deliberate attempt to push me out.

@2020ismyyear I guess beating ourselves up isn’t going to help! And I suppose in reality it isn’t all bad all of the time in any situation so easy to just carry on with the status quo...I’m hoping the anger will push me on! I hope all goes ok for you and he doesn’t make it too difficult for you

@RogelioAndXo
A few of my friends have recently divorced difficult H’s... and I am currently in the process.
Just wanted to tell you - if you have a medium/longer term marriage - there is NO way for your H to escape equal sharing of assets.
They all start out talking big and throwing threats. Then they sometimes hire very expensive lawyers. Then they try to bully you a bit more.
But eventually - reality sets in.
You just need to keep calm and wait out the process.

The boys dad ticks all those boxes, the 'EVERYONE agrees You're a bitch and poor me' song is weirdly irritating. We don't know any of the same people since I moved but he still does this.

It's cowardly self absorbed bullshit once you're able to blot it out, you need to start ignoring what you now know is the repetitive whiny script.

OP, make no mistake, he is emotionally abusive and treats you horribly.

I don't agree with Twenty about the walk being down to different perspectives.

"no we can’t have an adventure kids, mummy doesn’t want to"

This was said to undermine you in front of your children, to gain their affection over yours and make you feel guilty for not complying with his way of doing things. There are plenty of none manipulative (and more mature) ways to express differences in opinion to your children. I'm sure you have many more examples of him doing this type of thing as it's very common for abusive men to use our children to really hit us where it hurts.

Google 'grey rock' technique (sounds like you are already doing this to an extent) until you're able to leave. Don't give him any emotion, good or bad as this is what he feeds off. If he makes one of his comments, just say something to the effect of 'it's a shame you feel that way' and walk off to another room. If he keeps using the children to vicariously diminish you then all I can suggest is completely ignoring it and try to distract the children immediately, like saying "oooh did you see that bird in the tree, wow!). Obviously you cant keep it up long term as it will ultimately damage your children watching their mother being systematically destroyed by their father, but it may make things slightly more bearable until you can leave.

2020ismyyear thanks. I will survive, I'll be ok, I have to be my kids need me to be. H has certainly been making me miserable but the biggest issue right now, what I'm struggling with is constant overwhelming pain. I have a couple of chronic illnesses. Im really sick and H doesn't care enough to step up. I've started new treatments and hopefully that'll help. I'm just focusing on the kids and my health right now, trying to do grey rock with H. There's no space for anything else with how sick I am. Im giving myself nine months to see if I can get my conditions back to a manageable level first.

He sounds really toxic & manipulative. When you disengage & stop biting back, it infuriates them because they sense they are losing control over you. They will escalate their behaviour & when it sinks in you are really leaving they often change tactic & plead, promise you the world, sometimes threaten suicide to coerce you into staying. Good luck getting out & onto the other side, the world is a lot more pleasant without toxic personality types dragging you down

OP you pretty much described my exH . He also would set up traps for me so that I seemed like the baddie in front of the kids- whatever I did, react or not, I was in the wrong and he loved it when I cried with frustration. I have divorced him, it wasn’t easy. He still tries to be a pain in the arse, lies to the children and then denies it.
I think now you have acknowledged what he’s done to you, there is no going back.
Gather your information and plan your future.

@Jsku thank you, that's useful to know and very reassuring. Yes it's a longer-term marriage - we've been married for 14 years.

Feelingconfusedandunsure I also think the comments to your children are a method of undermining you (Mummy doesn't want an adventure). Your H sounds extremely passive aggressive and this is just another manifest of that. The whole pretending not to hear you when you say something and you having to repeat yourself numerous times (My H does the same thing), the ramping up of low-level hostility when you refuse to engage with his games, the circular discussions where he constantly (deliberately) misses the point, the walking away muttering and refusing to have a grown-up rational conversion with you. It's all a game because he can't communicate normally so it turns into internalised anger which he expresses non-verbally in little acts of terrorism and hostility.

I recently read on someone else's thread: stop asking yourself 'Why is he like this?' 'Why does he do that?' And instead accept that this is who he is; he's showing you loud and clear by his games and actions who he is. Start asking yourself instead 'Why do I accept this?' 'When am I going to leave?' That really struck a chord with me as I've wasted years trying to understand my H, posting on here about him, trying to get him to be reasonable, when all along what I needed to be doing was looking to myself to get away from the situation and leave him.

Someone linked me this article when I posted on here about my H once and I found it an eye opener at the time:
lynnenamka.com/anger-management/anger-management-articles/the-boomerang-relationship/

Wow that link @RogelioAndXo is a real eye opener! You are absolutely right it is just who he is, I can’t change that. I’ve been googling passive aggressive personality too and honestly it describes him down to a T!! Ironically I actually think I have become more passive aggressive though in recent years, maybe in response to every other attempt at normal communication being shut down... I have found myself matching his silent treatments and sarcastic comments - what an awful way to live!! This needs to stop! Is going gray rock passive aggressive though? Should I just be dealing with this head on instead of entering more ‘games’ so to speak?

I’ve had plenty of time to google and read those links today (on a 4 hour car journey of being totally ignored except loud huffing when I’d been on my phone for too long I think he may fall into the “water torturer” type in the Lundy Bancroft book, and maybe some of Mr Right, the abuse is definitely psychological/emotional, I think we are evenly matched physically so he knows I would put up a fair fight!!

I defo think reading all that stuff it’s internalised anger, his family are very passive aggressive too. How did I not see all this until now? It’s blown my mind!!

I've also found myself mirroring my husband's passive aggressive tactics back to him, almost without realising I'm doing it. This isn't me though - I very definitely wasn't that person before I met him! And I don't do it to anyone else. I think it's a bit of getting my own back and giving him a taste of his own medicine, which is a game I definitely don't want to be taking part in - it's one of the triggers that made me realise I have to leave for my own sanity. One of the main reasons my H said he feel in love with me was because of how happy and positive I was. I find it ironic that those are the things he is desperate to stamp out of me now. If I'm in a cheerful mood, he'll be moody, irritable, hostile, goading until I snap. Then, once he's got me in a bad mood, he cheers right up.

I also concluded my H was the water torturer type with some Mr Right thrown in for good measure! And my H also has an PA family too - they are constantly all trying to get oneupmanship over each other all the time ... I wish I'd seen that for the red flag it was at the time 20 years ago.

Sorry I pressed Post before I finished.

Is going gray rock passive aggressive though? Should I just be dealing with this head on instead of entering more ‘games’ so to speak?

I tried all sorts of tactics: ignoring him just infuriated him and he made my life a misery. I've tried confronting him, but he denies it and gets defensive and twists it round to me (Mr Right). I've found the easiest thing to do, and the thing that makes him the least unpleasant, is to be friendly and pleasant. I play with the dog, I chat to H about my day, and I completely ignore and refuse to rise to his sullenness and negativity. I pretend it's not happening and retain a front of a happy mood, even though inside I'm churning and furious. I do a LOT of meditation apps for the sake of my mental health! And I try to eat healthily and go for very long walks, trying to counteract the damage the stress will be doing to my body

That link is a great summary of this book (which she regs at the end). It is a really excellent insight. Just reading the final section of the link on trying to deal straight with the slippery PA behaviours is exhausting.

Living With the Passive Aggressive Man: Coping with the Personality Syndrome of Hidden Aggression From the Bedroom to the Boardroom, Scott Wetzler, Ph. D. Simon & Schuster, New York, 1992.

@ RogelioAndXo It’s crazy how parallel our lives are!! You are right I think being PA back is to try and teach him a lesson but ends up being completely pointless because it just escalates it and it gets twisted back around on me. I too wasn’t like this before him and I’m not like that with anyone else - it’s maddening isn’t it!! I feel like I’m on a crazy train 🚂 He also ‘fell in love with my happy, positive personality’ (which I still get called at work, among friends,etc) but he totally stamps it out of me at home...this I think is my main reason I want out, the kids are only getting the miserable disengaged mummy not the happy positive mummy they should be getting (she comes out when he’s away with work from time to time! )
Yeah gray rock seems to be winding him up even more (which tbf I’m enjoying a little bit), I find it really difficult not to confront him about his behaviour when it’s happening but it’s utterly exhausting going round and round in circles hence why I just disengage. I think like you said it’s probably best just to stick to pleasant and refuse to rise to it (soooo difficult though!). My youngest starts school this week so I’m planning on joining the gym and getting out more by myself, hopefully that will counter some of the stress!

@CIareIsland
I felt exhausted reading that section too!! Basically fight all your own instincts and shut off emotionally and you’ll be ok! Lol! It’s such hard work and I’m only just realising now how utterly exhausting it is!

I think it is shocking advice. Basically PA is abuse and here they are asking the victim to adapt their behaviour to absorb it!

Agree - when I read the advice in that final section, I clearly remember thinking 'Why should I? After reading that article it's obvious he's not worth the effort'.

The sheer amount of your own energy and the huge detrimental impact on your mental health that you'd have to put into implementing those strategies would totally erode yourself. And for what? A mean, manipulative man? Fuck that. Yes, protect yourself while you get your ducks in a row - go grey rock, ignore him, whatever works for you, and eat well, exercise, get outdoors, have fun with your children (or dog in my case!), meditate - and just focus on getting out.

He’s away overnight tonight, I’ve had a lovely day with the kids and looking forward to a peaceful night tonight without the huffing and puffing, sullenness and eye rolls. Bliss!!!

I agree, I read that article and thought fuck that!!!

It kind of highlighted to me the effort that would be required just to have a normal relationship...no amount of counselling or anything could really change that could it, especially if PA is so ingrained from childhood experiences, etc. That’s just kind of clarified that this is not really going to get better or be resolved, if anything just worse as I get more and more resentful!

This thread has literally been the biggest eye opener ever, I can’t thank you all enough

Hi everyone!

My STBXH sounds just like your H’s!

I left 6 months ago and I cannot believe how much happier I am. It’s not easy & I've had a lot of family support (DC & I are living with my parents).

I would recommend (in addition to all the previous advice re: ducks in a row etc) getting some psychotherapy. I think once you start seeing the abuse for what it is & remembering 100’s of previous incidents it suddenly feels quite overwhelming. Plus The Freedom Program (I haven’t done this yet but I am starting next week).
Finally the Lundy Bancroft book that someone has linked above. I bought a copy & went through it with a highlighter, marking everything I related too. It was shocking.

I left in the end because I felt his behaviour was affecting my DD (4). She started setting her knickers & begging me to sleep in her room so she would know I was ‘safe’. Plus I felt I was sliding into Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome (the PTSD of relationships).

It wasn’t until I left that I realised how much of my life was spent walking on egg shells & dreading him coming home. I don’t miss anything about him.

However, he is making life as hard as possible. Refused to get a solicitor, refused to divorce etc and STILL thinks he can ‘win’ me back. It will never happen.

Good luck to you all 💖

Feelingconfusedandunsure sounds like you had a lovely day yesterday It's says something that you're happier when he isn't around than when he is.

Refused to get a solicitor, refused to divorce etc

This is exactly what I'm worried about - it's just the sort of games my H would play in order to get one over on me. There are new divorce laws coming in where they won't be allowed to do this, but they need to go through Parliament first and who knows how long that will take?