DH gets mean

[wonderwhat]

Married a long time. Primary aged kids. He has a mean/angry streak that I find increasingly hard to tolerate. It normally emerges if he’s not getting his own way or driving (shouting at other drivers). I’ve found coping mechanisms for dealing with that. Ignoring and minimising mainly. Not bad enough to break up a marriage and traumatise the kids. However, one thing I’m really struggling with is how he reacts when the kids hurt themselves. He gets mean/stern especially if they cry and he automatically deems it “nothing” “get up” “get over it” type stuff. Our smallest was running and fell over on concrete. Scraped knees and elbows that were bleeding and needed a plaster. Lots of tears. My reaction is to treat it with a bit of sympathy/humour. Have a quick mummy hug and reassurance “you’re ok” “oh dear let’s get a plaster on that” “deep breath. You’re ok. Lucky your arm didn’t fall off eh” that type of thing. Try and rally but with the understanding that mummy hears you and cares. This seems to infuriate him. I’m really struggling to understand why. If your kid is sat on the floor after an accident why would that provoke a furious/mean type reaction? Why wouldn’t you at least do an “are you ok” “let’s take a look” reaction? Does anyone else have this and can anyone shed any light on why somebody would react this way to their kid hurting themselves? I’m frequently accused of mollycoddling so I’m trying to understand so I can meet him halfway but I’m a naturally hugs and cuddles and expressive kind type of nature so sitting back and watching my small ones hurt and crying and do nothing just seems wrong to me. There doesn’t need to be a drama but a quick hug and a bit of sympathy and then distraction seems to get it all done and dusted within 5 minutes whereas his angry/mean reaction just leaves hurt/sulky/unhappy kids who struggle to then bounce back for the day. Any insights are appreciated

Disclaimer here as I don't have my own children, but I think what he is teaching them is to disregard and suppress their own feelings, which NEVER has a good outcome. Tell a child they are ok when clearly they are not, they feel rotten and just had something horrible happen, so the normal human thing to do is to sympathise, a little there there don't worry, we'll sort you out, Mum/Dad is here now.... allow them to cry or explain what has happened...... Obviously no drama and within reason, but he's shutting them down. Maybe he was brought up like that. I don't like it and I would sit him down and say look, by handling it YOUR way, you're invalidating your own children and setting them up not listen to themselves when they are hurting, may that be physically and/or emotionally....

The other knock-on effect of course is that they will not trust him with their problems later on in life...

Parents are mirrors to their children for a large part of the growing up from baby to teenage years. Their brains are so plastic. What he is doing is not quite saying you don't exist, but he is definitely telling them that they don't matter.

I understand his tactic if they’ve just had a little fall ect, to stop them crying with shock. With toddlers you might be like you’re okay! When they look at you for guidance.

It’s not right if a child is bleeding and has fallen on concret though! What if one broke a finger or toe or arm!? He just angrily says it’s okay and no x-ray or cast ect.... when does it stop?

If I hurt myself and someone was angry with me for doing it I’d feel hurt embarrassed and more upset. :/

He is not a "dear" husband/half by any definition of the word. He is an unpleasant man and a bad parent.

It’s the behaviour of someone who cannot empathise as all. Because they cannot deal with someone else being centre of attention. My mum is like this. Well she was with me. I very quickly learned to be embarrassed of and hide any hurt or feeling. Not good.

What are you getting out of this relationship now?

Do you really think that your own techniques of minimising and or ignoring him are working for you or are helpful here?. They are not and your children are certainly picking up on the fact that their dad is mean towards all of you and particularly when they hurt themselves.

What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up?.
You have a choice re this man, they do not. Its not your fault your H is like this and you did not make him this way.

Your relationship with your children when adults could also be affected going forwards because they could well accuse you of putting him before them. Do you really think that ending a marriage would be so traumatising to them, staying within such an awful frankly example of a marriage is far more damaging and traumatising to them and you also.

What do you want to teach your children about relationships and what are they learning here from the two of you?. Would you want them to have this type of a relationship as adults, no you would not. Its not good enough for you either. This awful sounding man does this because he can and it works for him.

His behaviour when not getting his own way or driving are yet more red flags. It also made me think of this part of the article written by Dr Joe Carver:-

"If your boyfriend or girlfriend blows up and does dangerous things, like driving too fast because they're mad, breaking/throwing things, getting into fights, or threatening others - that temper will soon be turned in your direction. In the beginning of the relationship, you will be exposed to "witnessed violence" - fights with others, threats toward others, angry outbursts at others, etc. You will also hear of violence in their life. You will see and witness this temper - throwing things, yelling, cursing, driving fast, hitting the walls, and kicking things. That quickly serves to intimidate you and fear their potential for violence, although "The Loser" quickly assures you that they are angry at others or situations, not at you. At first, you will be assured that they will never direct the hostility and violence at you - but they are clearly letting you know that they have that ability and capability - and that it might come your way. Later, you fear challenging or confronting them - fearing that same temper and violence will be turned in your direction".

My exh was like this too. I think it was basically jealousy that I was giving attention and love to someone else.
He also used to shout at me for mollycoddling the dc and once he actually shouted at me: 'Stop MOTHERING HIM!!!' That did make me laugh and made it clear that it was his problem. What so I am not allowed to 'mother' my own kids????!!! We are now divorced.

He possibly had a cruel childhood growing up and can’t cope at these times. He is abusive too. It’s not acceptable for any of you.

I agree with PP's. Lack of empathy and jealousy that the attention is not on him. Emotional neglect is very damaging for children and being in the car when their father is ranting like a crazed person is extremely frightening (I have experience of this and I hate my dad for it).

Your H is controlling and abusive. You say you don’t want to break up the marriage as it will traumatise the DC. They are already traumatised by his behaviour. They will grow up to see this behaviour normal and acceptable. They will either choose abusive partners (because that’s what they know, that’s what they have learnt is ‘love’) or they will be angry and controlling with you and and their partners. Stop minimising his behaviour. Start minimising the damage to your children. Leave.
Read “Why does he do that?” By Lundy Bancroft.
The reason the does the “stop molly coddling them” routine is because it hurts you. Abusive people enjoy hurting their partners. Every time he tells you what to do he gets a kick out of it. Every time he says something that hurts your feelings he gets a kick out of it. That’s the sorry truth.

There’s a very interesting bit on empathy in Philippa Perry’s book (it’s called the book you wish your parents had read - and your children will be glad you did). She very articulately explains /describes how every parent has things that really irritates or triggers stuff in them I.e when our kids are clumsy, overly exuberant etc, whatever it might be that boils you up a bit. Her theory is that these tend to be the things we were admonished for as kids ourselves, and seeing it in our own children sets off those vulnerabilities. Often we as adults can’t relate to these feelings and it comes out as sheer irritation, or even rage.

Not at all letting your DP off the hook as clearly, part of parenting is hearing and empathising- and it sounds like he doesn’t with your children.

But it may be worth digging around a bit to see if you can uncover the reasons? There will be reasons.

He had a non caring, aggressive step father. I know that’s damaged him but his siblings aren’t like this. He has no empathy for me if I’m poorly either. His go to reaction in any tricky discussion or if we have different ideas eg shall we go left or right is to immediately jump to being strident in his tone of voice he uses with me. It’s domineering, frustrated, impatient...he frequently strides ahead rather than waiting or making sure I’m with him. He uses pedantic language. For example, I’ll say “it’s been raining all day long” (in an effort to engage in small talk) and his immediate reaction is a negative. Eg No. it’s only rained for 4 out of 8 hours. He’s often disparaging too. I’m struggling to converse with him as he’s over bearing and snappy. He’s a different character if everyone is happily letting him take the lead and do what he wants and fit in with his plans. He’s always right so why wouldn’t we fit in with his plans? He’s extremely charismatic and charming when it’s all going well. I’m extremely sensitive and struggle to deal with any negative/impatient/unkind tone. I’m aware that I’m very very sensitive which keeps me wondering if I’m over reacting. He frequently calls me argumentative in response to me trying to stand up for myself or the kids of trying to work out solutions where everyone is happy. I’m exhausted by it all to be honest but know I don’t want to tread on eggshells for the rest of my life.

He sounds a lousy husband and father. Horrible way for you all to live, and it doesn't have to be like this, nor should it.

For what it's worth, I don't think you sound "very very sensitive". You are reacting in the way that almost anyone would. He sounds horrible.

He grew up with a non caring and aggressive stepfather and that is what he learnt about relationships when he was growing up. Do not continue to subject yourselves to this man. Your children will not say thanks mum to you if you choose to stay with him for your own reasons.

Why are you and he still together at all?. You seem unable to answer that. If you really do not want to tread on eggshells (aka living in fear) for the rest of your days then you and he must be apart.

And he is not above telling you that you are argumentative either. He is merely projecting his own self image onto you. You are neither over sensitive nor over reacting.

Argh... my ex was a bit like this. He wasn't my DD's Dad so I was able to get put much more easily though. Fast driving when stressed, not much empathy. Anger issues (punched walls etc). Would be very pedantic about stuff. I like you am super sensitive - which possibly didn't help matters, we were v different sides of the spectrum - and was accused of being ridiculous with the way I felt.
He was then diagnosed with ASD (as it was called at the time).
I'm wondering if he may be on the spectrum? I know it's common on MN for people to diagnose v quickly. But maybe look up stuff from Maxine Aston and read about the Cassandra Syndrome.

Can I ask what he does for a living @wonderwhat?

Does any of this ring true OP?

Lack of empathy, superficial charm, outbursts of rage, constant criticism/devaluing, manipulation, gaslighting all sound like narcissism to me rather than ASD

Sorry, missed off entitlement and a grandiose sense of self (I.e he is automatically right about everything)

@Jaffacakes it all looks very familiar to me. ExN behaved the exact same way. Glad to be rid of him now

The problem with someone with a NPD is that it can't be "fixed". A lot of psychs will avoid treating that person as they know too they'll get sucked in.
ASD is a bit different as they can be taught (if they're HF AS) to change behavioural patterns. And there is a spectrum - under stress the behaviours get worse - but you can as a family develop some coping mechanisms. If my ex was my DDs Dad I may have tried for longer but he wasn't, so no point.
I get a little wary about labelling someone with NPD because there is literally no hope for "a cure", because of the nature of the PD it can't happen (unlike BPD for example, which can be successfully managed with DBT). So I think we have to be careful with that label maybe?

You sound like a sensible mother not an overly sensitive one.
Breaking up a marriage to a person like that does not equal traumatized kids. But being raised with a father like that might well equal a child who denies his/her own feelings and lacks empathy for others.
A bad father IS NOT BETTER than no father.