Can both partners be abusive?

[boringornot]

I clearly have an abusive relationship with my STBXH. But even though he belittles me, calls me names, does lots of things, I admit I have said horrible things to him and have been shouty and probably abusive as well. We had a few (2 or 3) episodes of physical violence, initiated by him or by me.

My point is: I may be a victim of domestic violence, some level of coercive control, but I have done these things as well.

In the last few months I stopped, though. I don't want to be that person anymore, and I'm making plans to divorce.

What is my situation in there? I may be a victim, but I've been an abuser as well (probably more in the beginning of the relationship).

As I said, I finally understood that this is completely unacceptable and I will end this madness. But can I ask for help as a "victim"? It sounds a bit wrong.

By the way, I'm in Europe, not in the UK.

Sounds to me like that would just keep the spiral going, if you claim youre a victim. He will of course do the same and youll both carry on taking chunks out of each other. Seems like you should end the toxicity with the least drama possible and get on with your own lives.

@Parent999 the problem is that we have 2 children together, and he already told me that he doesn't want a divorce. So, I will need some help (from lawyers, police, whatever it is) to make him leave the house, to agree on the terms of the separation, etc.

I can't just "get on with my life" - I would love to!

oh dear, I dont really know what to say. You of course have to protect yourself and ensure you dont engage in anything abusive yourself.
Just out of interest, why does he have to leave the house?

Maybe mediation might be best? but not sure about your country. Unfortunately in the UK men cant get any legal support for domestic abuse like women can. You need safe place with a third party to sit down and make him understand youve made your decision and you guys need to discuss the practicalities of it.

Sorry I can be more help, I suppose a lot depends on the country youre in.

Sounds like you may both have your own unresolved issues which are being played out in the relationship.
What are your/his other relationships like?
I read something once that I think is so true -
How do you know you are in a good relationship?
Because you like yourself!
A bad relationship can make you feel angry, depressed, resentful, irritable etc. A good relationship makes you feel, on the whole, content and at peace with yourself.

Of course it is possible but I am a bit hesitant to say so because:

-it is a classic abuser's technique to play the victim and accuse the victim of being the abuser instead. (DARVO - deny, attack, reverse victim and offender)

So making you think you're an abuser can be part of the abuse.

Have you ever been abusive to anyone else? If the answer is no, then I wonder if your behaviour, particularly in the early part of your relationship, was an attempted survival technique, if that makes sense.

You can definitely ask for help.

@Parent999 I'm in Germany, I'm trying to find out what kind of support is available here. I'm worried about him leaving the house because I don't want to stay here with him and the children after I tell him about the divorce. I would go away if I could, but it's harder to find a place for three people than for one. And we don't have any family around.

@Tableclothing
But the OPs stbx isn’t the one telling her she’s been abusive before, it sounds like she recognises, herself, that she had been so darvo doesn’t apply here.

I don’t think there’ll be many of us who know the ins and outs of the German system well enough to help you OP. Have you got enough money available to get an hour with a lawyer over there?

@tableclothing
*-it is a classic abuser's technique to play the victim and accuse the victim of being the abuser instead. (DARVO - deny, attack, reverse victim and offender)

So making you think you're an abuser can be part of the abuse.

Have you ever been abusive to anyone else? If the answer is no, then I wonder if your behaviour, particularly in the early part of your relationship, was an attempted survival technique, if that makes sense. *

Oh good God, so when a woman says she has engaged in abusive behaviour its still the mans fault because he has manipulated her into thinking she is abusive? Why cant we just give the OP the respect of accepting that she says theres two sides to this story and she wants to fix it.

@boringornot
Fair enough, I would get all your ducks in a row and be ready for when you tell him, are you able to get some legal advice in Germany? are you also entitled to any benefits? Its time to do some homework.

When you say you have been abusive, what do you mean?

Were you deliberately cruel and call him names in a calculated way of lowering his self esteem as a way to control him or did you say 'cruel' things out of frustration from the abuse from him? I suspect it's the latter with you and the former was actually him. Theres a difference between using abuse in a calculated way to control (as your STBXH probably did) and losing your shit and calling him names (because he probably deserved to be called a bastard because that's what he was).

I think it's common for women in abusive relationships to absolutely lose their shit sometimes from the constant onslaught of abuse from the other partner. We take it and take it ans there has to be a breaking point. You are only human and they are trying to break you. Many abusive men deliberately push ther partner to the brink of sanity and then sit back and watch the fall out with glee and turn it back around in you as 'evidence' you are abusive.

Most abusive men play the victim and will always make the abused person think they are abusive by using this tactic. In reality, you are responding to an extremely stressful situation and although physical abusive is never acceptable, everyone has their breaking point from being in this situation. I'm assuming you weren't physically assaulting him as a way to intimidate and control him?

One of my narc exes had videos on his phone of his ex 'acting crazy' towards him which he kept as 'evidence' of her abuse towards him. The reality was that he was highly manipulative and abusive, had targeted a vulnerable single mother who had been abused previously and would use every abusive tactic to abuse her and then film the fallout. I believe this now comes under the new coercive control law.

My extremely abusive exH (convicted of assault against me) will tell anyone who listened that I was the abusive one in the relationship which just makes me laugh now. Abusive men are narcissistic and unable to take responsibility for their actions and are eternal victims so it makes sense that they view the relationship in this way. They are the deluded ones but if you have been gaslighted for many years then you become unable to trust your own reality and start to believe theirs.

I think counselling would really help you gain perspective of this situation and help you see that it was in fact him that was abusive and you were reacting to an impossible situation and are the victim here.

Check out this video

@Wishiknewthen his other relationships are extremely superficial, so there are no big conflicts. Even with his parents and brother. Well, in second thought, he bickers a lot with his brother. Apart from that, superficial conversations all the way.

He tells me that he never had troubled relationships with his previous girlfriends, but he never married any of them, or had relationships longer than a few years, so I don't think it's a fair comparison. We have been a great deal of pressure, having kids away from family, etc. So we can't compare.

HOWEVER, answering @Tableclothing question, yes, I've been abusive to other people. I come from an abusive home (but only realized that a few years ago) and used to be abusive to boyfriends, calling over and over during the night, making unreasonable demands, etc.

My husband faced all this abuse and still stayed with me. Then every now and then he would bring this topic back, saying "I considered leaving you many times during that time, you know?" (which is very wrong of him).

Then after we had kids I got really shouty and demanding him to do the things in the house - that he didn't, in a passive aggressive way, taking too long, "forgetting" things, etc. Then I would scream, and in very few situations, hit him.

It's all a mess - what I want to find out now is: how much I am responsible for this mess?

(He says it's all my fault, always. Of course)

@Jaffacakesaremyfave

"I think counselling would really help you gain perspective of this situation and help you see that it was in fact him that was abusive and you were reacting to an impossible situation and are the victim here."

WOW, just wow.

My bad, cross posted with OP where she states she is actually abusive.

It's far more commen for abused victims to be told they are abusive so still an important point for anyone who stumbles across this thread and is in that situation.

OP, if you had an abusive childhood then you need to do the work in unpacking all of that with a qualified counsellor. At least you have some insight into your behaviour which is extremely rare in abusive people so I would see that as a positive as you sound willing to change?

@Parent999 this is what me and @Tableclothing are referring to www.loveisrespect.org/content/myth-of-mutual-abuse/

The problem with not mentioning this as a possibility when a woman in an abusive relationship asks if they are abusive is that many women go through life genuinely thinking what their abuser has told them is true.

Yes there are exceptions to this but most of the time, it is used as a further abusive tactic.

Im open minded enough to see thats a possibility in BOTH men and women. But I really have a problem with with the blanket statement.

The OP is a grown woman and has expressed that there's fault on both sides, but she's making the effort to change and wants to leave a toxic marriage. Why cant we just believe.

Im a man and even I take offence on behalf of women. The insinuation that all women MUST be victims, how bloody insulting.

Sorry OP, anyway I dont think you get too much further with this in the UK. I would suggest an hours legal advice and a lot of homework on German benefits. It may well be that you have no choice but to claim victim support to get out of your situation and I dont suppose anyone would blame you, you'll be doing whats best for your kids. Good luck

No need to take offence on behalf of women parent as they ARE most often the victim. Women are disproportionately affected by domestic abuse so although there are exceptions to this, it is reasonable to assume that the majority of the time, the women is being abused because those are the facts from ALL research done on this topic.

Here are the stats www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/domestic-abuse-is-a-gendered-crime/

Of course we cant talk about a topic that disproportionately affects women without having to consider the much smaller impact on men.

There are exceptions but they are exceptions and OP is still being abused herself either way here so falls into the 'abused woman' category you seem so defensive about excluding her from.

Womensaid? really?
Thats a little like me posting father4justice stats and calling it fact, even I know the data is selective at best with an agenda.

On a side note, 25% of victims is not an exception. Why on Gods green earth would anyone sideline a victim of abuse just because they were in a minority?

If I ever commit a crime I do hope you will be here to convince me that Im actually the victim.

Oh yes, because Womansaid is remotely comparable to fathers4justice and the Office for National Statistics is selective how? I agree there may be under reporting in men but there is also under reporting in women too so I would argue all the stats are much lower and the proportions probably not much different. What possible agenda could there be for these stats? We live in a patriarchal society whether you want to acknowledge it or not and these stats just reflect the terrible state of affairs women still have to live in.

I'm not suggesting any victim of abuse is sidelined, however I disagree that women are not disproportionately affected by it. If 25% of men are abused, then the other 3/4 of victims are women. The dynamics are very different too. The reality is that if you are a women, you are statistically more likely to be abused, more likely for that abuse to be more severe and repeated and more likely to be murdered by an ex partner. Why are you not offended on behalf of all men and women that this continues to go on unchallenged and not be made more of a priority by the government, police and social justice system?

OP IS the victim of a crime herself. That doesn't negate the fact that she has been abusive but if you read the article I posted earlier, it is uncommon for the actual abuser to be able to have the insight OP has and likely she wasnt the 'dominent' abuser here.

Thanks to all of you for the help.

@parent999, I'd be happier if you didn't do anything on behalf of women. It's more patronizing to have a man being offended on my behalf, than people assuming I am a victim in a world where the absolute majority of victims ARE women.

@Jaffacakesaremyfave thanks for the link, I'll watch the video as soon as I have some time.

After thinking about it all, I'm starting to believe that I WAS abusive in the very beginning. But then things changed at some point, after one or two years of relationship. Then, a few years down the line, since the children were born, I was not the abuser anymore. I may have freaked out, and reacted to his abuse in an unreasonable way. Because if I had healthy boundaries, I would have left the relationship then. But I didn't, so I reacted to the abuse being abusive myself.

But I don't believe I was the one initiating the abuse by then. I remember I told STBXH that we could never call the other names or mock the other. He agreed, but he would disrespect that all the time. At first. Without being called names or being mocked, he would do that to me.

So I think I can said that I've been the victim recently, even though I might have been abusive in the past.

And in the last year or so, after loads of therapy and work, I can definitely say I have been behaving reasonably. Not even reacting in a bad way. And I know STBXH was uncomfortable to see that he couldn't destabilize me anymore.

Regardless of whether anyone has been abusive or not, you have a right to end a relationship because you want it to end. Your partner does not have the right to force you to remain in the relationship.

The process of separating is not quick and easy, and it's a decision not to be taken lightly, but that doesn't mean that you are only "allowed" to separate if you were some kind of "innocent victim" who never put a foot wrong and has no flaws. If you want to end the relationship and truly believe it's the best way forward for you and your children, the important thing is not agonizing over whether you were at fault for problems in the relationship, but to figure out how to separate safely and in the lowest-conflict way possible.

I believe other posters on here have stated before that domestic violence support in Germany is actually pretty good, I'm sorry I don't know the specifics but perhaps start with handbookgermany.de/en/rights-laws/domestic-violence.html

@CousinKrispy thanks a lot for the link! I have been reading about support, and that's one of the reasons I want to understand better the dynamics of the abuse (which I think I understand a bit better now thanks to this thread).

I know I don't need authorization to separate, but I'm concerned about STBXH's reaction, and want to be prepared, and access all the help I can, so I don't expose myself or the DC to any risk. You said "figure out how to separate safely and in the lowest-conflict way possible." --> that's the difficult bit! :)

I haven't read all the posts but I think you are being very honest here.
I came from a highly abusive background as did my husband. We came into the marriage with so much unrecognised severe emotional baggage. The marriage imploded in a very bad way.
It took me many years for me to understand the part that I myself had played. I was blinded by painful, unconscious pain and anger and so was he.
Like you I had no family support - on the contrary they thrived on my pain.
I am not saying this is the same as your situation. I have no idea.
However it does sound as though you need to be apart from each other.
Are your parents supportive?
Could you move to Germany?
Apologies if I have missed something as I have not read the full thread.

Thanks for the reply, @wishiknewthen I think my situation is quite similar to yours. I have been with STBXH for 16 years and in this time I've learnt so much about myself and understood so much of my issues. I'm a very different person now. He doesn't want to work on his issues, though. Just because he can hold a good job with a good salary, he thinks he is great and has no issues.

Did you have kids with your XH?

Answering your questions, my mum is supportive, but she lives overseas. My dad has dementia and is really poorly now. I live in Germany but I don't speak the language and it's very hard to get a job in these conditions.

Yes I did have children. I shouldn't have had then because I wasn't stable enough but I didn't know that at the time. They were dearly loved but they suffered.
I think it must be very difficult to live in a country where you don't speak the language. Very isolating which means you are probably (maybe) too dependant on your husband who even if he could give you what you need, is not a healthy situation.
Could you come back to live near your mother if she is supportive?

@Wishiknewthen It is indeed very isolating, but I have a few friends so I don't depend too much on him (have learned long ago that depending on him is useless). LOts of people speak English, which helps.

No way I can go back to my home country, things are politically and economically bad there now. I thought of moving elsewhere within Europe where I can speak the language, but if I can separate and be in peace, then I'm fine staying in Germany for a bit longer (and in this case, learning the language properly, at last).

I just want it to be over, and to be alone with the DC, with no fights everyday. But to get there, I have to go through the whole separation thing, which is the scary part ;)