Uncomfortable with husbands relationship with his mother

[Belfield]

Sorry this is quite long.

My MIL lives abroad and has come to visit. I have always felt that she is quite overbearing but am feeling now quite uncomfortable about the relationship between my husband and his mother and am not sure if I am overthinking it/paranoid or if something is off. Perhaps I am in the wrong. I am unsure. My husband is one of two sons. My husbands older brother is 45 and lives with his mother and does not work. She makes his dinner/lunch, cleans his clothes etc. and takes great pride in being the best mother ever. He came to live with us for a period and had a girlfriend but the mother was constantly on the phone and offered him a job in their country so he left and went back to live with her (he left the job shortly after). I took the view that this is none of my business but it is very clear to me that they are totally enmeshed with each other. The father lives there also but he seems largely ignored. The problem is that I think that she and my husband are also enmeshed and that I just haven't seen it or accepted it but then I think that I am only thinking it because she is enmeshed with her other son and am thinking it is the same but it is not. I just don't know.

I would love the view of others and would be quite happy if people said it was perfectly normal and I am just being paranoid. For context, I come from a completely different family. My parents have their own lives and are not that involved with their childrens lives. They could be more involved so they are the other extreme. Some examples are as follows:

Since she has visited, she has not left my husbands side except to go to the toilet and go to bed. He was washing the car and she stood there the whole time watching him. Between hoovering and hosing it was too noisy to talk so she just stood there looking at him. every room he is in, she was in. I have kept myself very busy because when she speaks with me it is constant critism. My husband laughs at this and I think acts as if two woman are fighting over him. When I have visited, she won't allow us to go to dinner alone or anywhere alone. She must come at all times. this included when we were very young and just dating. She talks on a permanent basis about what an amazing mother she is, how much she did for her children, how she is a better cook than anyone else, how she does more for her children than anyone else. it seems to be all she talks about and my husband seems all his time with her talking about what an amazing mother she was/is. She can be very rude to me and my husband never corrects her. I caught my husband looking at softcore older women videos. He is not that interested in sex. I am just starting to think this is all connected. Everytime she visits she makes an issue of something that I do to create a pick me situation and my husband always picks his mother. My husband can be cold and unsupportive and seeing him dance around her makes me think that it is not necessarily his personality. I don't know. I know his brother could never have a relationship with a woman because his mother would never facilitate it, everyone knows this and it is big joke in his wider family. I am now beginning to think that we are not as different but the physical distance has meant is is not as obvious. Maybe I am too controlling/difficult and he just has a good relationship with his mother which I don't understand because my own mother is not that involved with her own children.

Belfield,

re your comment:-
"He actually compares her parenting to mine and when I try to give our son independence by not doing things for him, he sees this as me being lazy as his mother would have done everything for him"

This response from coyoacan is prescient:-
"All her good parenting has resulted in an unemployed middle-aged man with no family of his own who lives with his mother".

A very similar dysfunctional scenario has also happened with my inlaws (her unemployed, single and unemployable son lives at home with her and theirs is a codependent relationship). This is not a cultural issue at all; not all other people from her home nation act like she does. This is codependency and her sons are both locked into this ultimately destructive dance with her. They won't break free of this easily if at all because she will also not allow that to happen.

People from dysfunctional toxic families end up playing roles. In your case your H is the scapegoat and his brother remains the golden child (itself a role not without price as you are seeing). You are very much the outsider in all this so that makes it somewhat easier to exit this whole messed up dynamic. With scapegoats, all their family unit (so in your case both you and your son) become scapegoated.

What do you get out of this relationship with your H?. Have you really only stayed with this man anyway because of your son?. Its a mistake if you have and he won't thank you for staying with his dad either. I would make plans to exit both your marriage and the wider dysfunction within his family of origin as soon as possible.

@Whosorrynow not a wind up I'm afraid. could i ask how your situation is similar?

@AttilaTheMerkat can I ask if your DH is affected by his families relationship. I do love my husband and we get along quite well but this has changed over the last few years and I am becoming less happy. I wouldn't say that I am staying only for our son.

He actually compares her parenting to mine and when I try to give our son independence by not doing things for him, he sees this as me being lazy as his mother would have done everything for him
'Do you want our son to turn out like your brother? Because your mother is not some saint. I am not having our son turn out like you or your brother. No woman deserves that. So WE will teach him to do things for himself. To be independent. To be a good son and good partner. To have a good work ethic. To want to do things to help others. THAT is what OUR jobs as parents is all about. It's lazy parenting to just do everything for him. I repeat... OUR son will NOT turn out like you or your DBro. So stop spouting crap and start teaching YOUR son some independence. By that I mean that you lead by example'

Job done!

@hellsbellsmelons I have done this and have always done this. Our son is quite independent which is why I think MIL is not bothered with him.

OP did you have a discussion with him about his lack of sexual interest in you and how you are creeped out by him watching older women in knickers? And direct him to therapy?

Do you want to seek couple counseling ?

I wouldn’t leave him if you still love him and if he only defaults to his toxic childlike personality when his mother is there. Because that’s just symptoms of her manipulation.

Unless it was directly shaping how he is with you all year round then that would be hard to swallow

And every time he compares you to his mother, compare him to your father in things that matter to him:

“DH, my father bought his own house at 30, why didn’t you?” “DH, my father wears white boxers, why do you wear blue?”, “DH, my father cooks prawn curry for my mum, what will you cook for me?” , “DH, my father has many friends why don’t you?”..”DH, my father raised his kids to be independent, I don’t know if you know how to do that. He was perfect at it and I’m the prime example”.

Until he gets creeped out and annoyed and then you can tell him that you want him to know what it feels like to be constantly told they don’t measure up, in comparison to a person that shouldn’t be in a competition with you anyway.

Make sure this doesn’t become your new norm but I’m all for using a “stubborn” mans technique against them so they know that it doesn’t work.

@IABUQueen I suggested counselling to him but he doesn't feel we need it as he is happy enough. He says the lack of sex is down to tiredness/worried about pregnancy/life. we do have sex monthly but not as often as I would like and I usually initiate. He doesn't seem too concerned that I am not happy and says he is not into that pyscho rubbish as he calls it. Thanks for your tips but I think I am past that at this stage tbh. I don't think I will ever change their dynamic and I think it is affecting our marriage. I am a nice person with plenty of friends and I just feel I deserve better than being treated like a second class citizen. I could just be feeling that way now though. I think, although the visits with his mother are yearly, he still talks to her on skype every week, messages all the time etc so I think her influence is year round.

Belfield

It sounds like your gut is telling you to leave.

You sound like you raised a wonderful son who wouldn’t be easily manipulated. Your situation does seem straightforward if you want to leave.

The issue like many PP said isn’t the mother.. the issue is that you deserve a spouse that protects you and your home and respects you and your marriage and doesn’t allow anyone to mess with that, let alone enjoy it.

You do deserve better.

"@AttilaTheMerkat can I ask if your DH is affected by his families relationship. I do love my husband and we get along quite well but this has changed over the last few years and I am becoming less happy. I wouldn't say that I am staying only for our son".

Oh yes but her influence overall has wained a bit due to distance both mental and physical. She still can on occasion talk at him like he's five or something. All this stuff is deeply ingrained.

You are less happy now for good reason. If you are not staying for your son, who are you staying for?. Is it easier for you to stay, no it is not and this is death by 1000 cuts. Are you really staying for your own sake here?

he doesn't seem to understand that she was doing everything for them so she could control them

From all the info you've posted so far, it sounds like she's a narcisisst, only 'valuing' the people who provide her with narcissistic supply (her sons).
You and your dc don't conform (give her that supply) so she either devalues you or ignores you altogether.
This kind of enmeshment is referred to as emotional incest (nothing to do with sexual incest).
Here's some info
psychcentral.com/blog/emotional-incest-when-is-close-too-close/

My now OH left his EW for her overbearing mother.

I had to read that a couple of times

But seriously, He doesn't seem too concerned that I am not happy and says he is not into that pyscho rubbish as he calls it.

That would be my red line. I'd be out of there for that alone.

OP - I do think a lot of your issues stem from cultural differences.
And I do find it judgemental to use one culture’s norm to decide what’s normal.
In Southern Europe the relationship within families are different. Period.
It may be strange for us, but who are we to judge.
You met and married him. His mother must have always been the same with him and his brother. It wasn’t sprung on you.
It’s possible that as other resentments creeped up - these cultural differences started irking you more.
But - I do think it’s infant to twist it into some sort of sexual perversion you are alluding to with the porn with older ladies. I do not think there is anything to suggest that there is an Oedipal complex there....

As to the going to a seaside holiday and wanting the kids to swim in the sea vs them wanting to swim in the pool, or play computer games as so many English kids do - again.... Nothing weird about it.
Most people who grew up with a warm sea - want the kids to swim in the sea. If you want to call it -‘recreating childhood experiences’ - sure.
But it’s also the reason people go on beach holidays. Being at the beach.
You seem to want to see proof of something sinister (related to MIL) in all he does.
And the reality is - i think it’s just that the two of you are in a bad place, and possibly not well matched to start with.
Sorry

doesn't seem too concerned that I am not happy and says he is not into that pyscho rubbish
cool, so next time he's ill tell him you're not into all that medicine rubbish:)

could i ask how your situation is similar?
I thought of somone who is overly enmeshed with his mother, he had to step up and be the man of the family as a teenager when his abusive father walked out, she leaned on him but also dis-empowered him and held him back in life, I can think of more than one example where a parent has tried to turn a child into a 'quasi' partner after the actual partner deserted them.
It's a combination of giving them a role that they are not ready for and hobbling them in some way so they are trapped and cant ever leave you
very nasty

MMmom I disagree..

Cultural norm is one thing. But being indifferent about his mum not treating his wife respectfully is nothin to do with culture.. plus he married his wife from a different culture probably in HER country of origin and so should try to understand what SHE comsiders disrespectful.

I agree the beach thing I didn’t quite understand.

cultural differences, yes to an extent but what fits in one culture doesnt work in another culture, when in Rome etc...

All her good parenting has resulted in an unemployed middle-aged man with no family of his own who lives with his mother
yes and for the mother this constitutes 'job done' she didnt have this child to let him go off into the world without a backward glance, oh no, he exists to validate and care for her, that's what she raised him for and she'll clutch him to her until her last dying breath

@MMmomDD my DH isn't from Southern Europe. I think i said that i had always previously considered it cultural but that none of his friends/family have the same dynamic so I don't think it is necessarily all cultural. i am only lately realizing that it may be more than that but everything is explained away as culture. Should my DH not consider my culture though? The beach thing was just that he was insisting it was the only thing that we do for the entire holiday as it was what he used to do with his mother. We did go most days and enjoyed it. My son/I wanted to do day trips also which I can't see a problem with. If it is cultural then he should be considering my culture/likes also. I never mentioned video games.

Mother is a narcissist (or something along those lines). Son might be too. Kid or no kid I'd be offskies. As fast as my legs would carry me. From creepydeepy 1 and 2.

She must come at all times. this included when we were very young and just dating
THIS isn't cultural.
Their problems are not 'cultural'.

Did you marry on first sight? Surely you knew this before you married him.
I wouldn't have my dh laughing at me when his mother was out of order.
ffs leave him, what a cock.

There’s definitely something abnormal with MIL. Your DH is a victim in all this, as is his DB. He knows NO different. I honestly would be speaking to a MH pro about it, when she’s there too!

OP - I think I didn’t quite get my point across.
I think you are making this MIL issue more than it is and focus on it INSTEAD of focusing on the things that are actually wrong in your relationship.
Your is a relationship with your H. The MIL comes and goes.
You met and married and had a child with a man with whom you seem to not be aligned on many things. Daily life; relationship priorities; parenting expectations seem to be different.
And you aren’t communicating and/or not listening to each other. There is a resentment, at least on your side. And there is a child caught up in that.

So - in your place - rather than looking for some justification of your views on life by making your H some sinister man with an Oedipal complex - why not deal with the actual issues.

She sounds utterly awful and he enables it because of his insecurities.
This is such deep-rooted behaviour and he needs counselling.
To not stand up to her and allow his own DS to join them on their outings is very bad, but at least he doesn't have to witness this yukky weirdness between them.
When he jokes about 2 women fighting over him - next time mention that he's the one that enjoys looking at old women in their undies.

... and preferably say it in front of her too.