Childcare arrangements post divorce

[GuaranteedHappiness]

Just after some thoughts on whether I'm being unreasonable....

I'm in the midst of divorcing my husband, we have the decree nisi, we've agreed the finances and sent off the financial consent order for court approval. The house is up for sale, but we're still currently both living there.

We agreed from the beginning that he would have the children alternate weekends with flexibility to swop weekends for holidays / events (I have this in writing in an email from him). We also agreed this would be a minimum, I wouldn't stop him seeing the children and he could see them midweek after school and in the school holidays.

We live close to his parents and friends where he grew up. My parents live 150 miles away and my long term friends live all over the country. I work full time Monday - Friday 9-5 (we both do). I often go away for weekends to see friends and family.

He has now said that he wants to see the children every weekend. He wants them 6pm Fri until 6pm Sat alternate weekends and 6pm Sat until 6pm Sun alternate weekends. I believe this is because he wants to continue his social life at least one night a weekend. He has a girlfriend which he doesn't know I know about.

I said I would think about it over the weekend. But I want to say it doesn't work for me. I'm a single full time working mother who needs support from friends and family. I need my children to spend quality time with friends and family and I don't believe I can do this is 24 hours a week.

Any advice or insights welcome. Where do I stand? What do I do if it's a stand off?

Sorry for the long message.

I think every other weekend is best for you and the children - just say its doesnt work for you

Be prepared though for him to fight back with threatening court. Let him he clearly wants the minimum so it doesnt affect his social life and girlfriend

Stick with alternate weekends. That seems a quite common arrangement and gives you both time off so to speak. He can see his girlfriend during the week. Can’t see how he could challenge you on this.

If it doesn't work for you then tell him you want to stick with the original plan. Remain calm and tell him why you think it will benefit the children (not how it will benefit you).
He will likely come back and argue and if, worst case, it comes to a stand-off you would have to go to mediation in the first instance.
My guess is, if you push for mediation he will then back down and agree to the original plan.
Its typical of a lot of men who want an arrangement that suits their social life. I do think alternative weekends is less disruptive for the children as there is too much too-ing and fro-ing otherwise.
If its any consolation I have an awkward ex too!

I would suspect he is concerned about child maintenance. That original "every other weekend but I reserve the right to see them mid week and in hols if I feel like it" screamed of reducing maintenance without actually doing the work. Perhaps he's had legal advice - and the girlfriend to do the drudge work, naturally.

Every other weekend is best for your children as it is easiest to work out which parent they are going to be with when. This type of arrangement is easy to put on a calendar.

Simply tell him that the arrangements you both agreed are for the best interests of the children as what he wants will confuse them. (His desired arrangement confuses the fuck out of me and I'm just a random adult on the internet.)

Also if he wants to see his girlfriend and it is a long term relationship, then she better get use to being with your children and treating them properly.

That's not likely to be best for your children. Be firm, clear and consistent with him. It's confusing and not really workable. State you feel EOW is best for the children and leave it at that. If he harasses you, Grey rock, and ask him to go through court as' it may be best if a judge decides'. If he gets legal advice they are likely to state EOW is best for the children and usual contact arrangements.

The children come first in this. I don't personally believe EOW is anything like enough time for them to maintain a close relationship with their father.

That said, you need to have quality time with them at the weekends as well - I don't think it's right that either parent should monopolise time at the weekends, as that's denying the children valuable down time with the other parent.

The best solution here would be for him to have them for some fixed time during the week, as well as every other weekend. That's what I'd suggest as your counter-offer. This ensures that both parents maintain a meaningful relationship with the kids, with time spent on both the fun, weekend stuff, and the day-to-day of the school week.

No, you should both get 'downtime' time with them at the weekend, and his plan is blocking you from ever taking them to visit your parents. If he wants more time with them then he can see them after school and share some of the grunt work of getting them to do homework. How do you plan to split holidays, can he have 50% of those?

My ex-wife and I faced exactly this problem (although in our case it was she with the boyfriend she didn't know I knew about).

Our solution has been alternate a shift of Friday evening through to midday Sunday. The ther parent then gets to provide lunch on Sunday and have overnight and then drop off at school the next morning.

This way the "off" parent still gets to spend a decent amount of quality time with the kids every week and the "on" parent gets more than just 24 hours meaning they can do something more extensive. As SlightlyMisplacedDad suggests above, this is bolstered by one recurring school pick-up/overnight/school drop-off a week by me and evening visits for tea.

This has worked well - after 6 months I asked the kids if they were happy with the arrangement or if they wanted to switch to every other weekend if they thought it was too unsettling. They adamantly wanted to stick with what we were doing. It also means both me and my ex-wife get a weekend evening to socialise if we want.

Whilst I'm sure there are (sadly) many dads who don't do their share of the grunt work or, alternatively, aren't able to due to circumstances beyond their control, I have to argue with the idea that every other weekend is "best for the children". This is 2019. Co-parenting is a thing. Fathers are not optional lifestyle accessories or bolt-on extras who's fundamental contribution to their kids is providing sperm, maintenance payments for mum and "disney dad" fun time. I'm aware many (too many) dads are like this. But that's a bad choice by them, not a natural state of affairs.

The reason I fought against accepting every weekend? Not because I wanted to spend time with a secret partner (I'm still single). Not because I wanted to reduce my maintenance payments. It was because I missed my kids - heart-wrenchingly so. Having had them be a daily fixture in my life - even if only helping them to get dressed before dashing out to work or brushing their teeth and singing them a song at bedtime when I got back, I found adjusting to them empty days without them, in a flat that wasn't my home, untenable.

Not every dad wants to live the bachelor lifestyle.

fought against every other* weekend. D'oh!!

Thanks everyone, you've all pretty much said what I was thinking.

@PicsInRed that's what my mum said, but I don't think it is due to maintenance payments because he is paying the amount we calculated on the Child Maintenance calculator which equates to 1-2 days on average. Well he's having them 1 day a week on average plus as and when. I don't expect it to ever go over 2 days per week on average which is when he would pay less.

@SlightlyMisplacedSingleDad - I agree and I suggested he have them one night a week after after-school-club, either over night or for dinner but he said that wouldn't work (he would have to leave work half an hour early to pick them up at 6pm!). But I have offered that as an option either fixed or as one offs.

@VimFuego101 - my thoughts exactly. I am steering away from the 'after having them all week, I'd quite like a weekend break' argument as his standard reply is that I chose to do this so have to suck it up! When I mentioned weekends away he said he'd be flexible and swop days but I didn't go into this as I was shocked/angry/stunned etc at the time. But thinking about it it would just confuse matters even more. Sometimes they're with us both at the weekend, sometimes just me, sometimes just him. No-one would know what was going on. For school holidays we have agreed that we will both take a minimum of 2 weeks off work per year to spend with them in the holidays and the rest of the time they go to holiday club / grandparents. I guess weekends would continue as EOW but swopping around to accommodate holidays etc.

@Tippletopple - I like your suggestion. I think that might work. Definitely worth pursuing. And it would flush out what I think might be behind this... going out and getting drunk one night a weekend... not (sadly) wanting to spend time with the kids.

Courts only generally offer EOW contact possibly with one week day after school. They’re unlikely to accept him having them every weekend.

Why only 2 weeks off as a minimum?

My barrister said EOW, one day in the week after school, half the holidays and alternate Christmases was the norm. That's what we do. The children find that too much coming and going to be honest. We did have a couple of weekends where we split it due to events but I wouldn't like to do that all the time. It means you can't go away with the children or without them for a full weekend. The same applies for your ex. Funny how the new gf is what they base what they want around!

@DtPeabodysLoosePants: EOW has been the norm, but times are changing. Co-parenting is increasingly gaining traction as workplaces offer more flexible arrangements and if parents want it/argue for it. Maybe not 50:50 in all cases, but certainly 60:40. EOW was based on the Fifties notion that mums were the natural stay-at-home, primary caregiver whilst men went out and worked. As feminism has challenged the notion that women can't be breadwinners in their own so to has it challenged the idea that men can't be caregivers as well.

I'm also not sure I agree with "It means you can't go away with the children or without them for a full weekend". Maybe not if you don't have a civil relationship with your ex, but otherwise why not simply do what me and my ex-wife do? Make exceptions and be flexible? If she needs a weekend away to visit her parents then I forego one of my Sunday nights - I get it back in kind when I next visit my parents with the kids.

Sorry OP, but try imagining that you only see your children every fortnight? You're jumping to some massive conclusions about his motives. You said you want some flexibility, but if you're going to refuse to let your children see their father every weekend that flexibility may not manifest itself. I think you're wrong.
Why should children automatically stay with their mother? Are mothers the better parent?

@Tippletopple they depends entirely on a reasonable ex and I don't know of any of those. My ex bf had a 50:50 agreement and it was not good for the kids at all. My own kids hate coming and going EOW. Children need a stable base and I'm not sure swapping homes every Sunday or whenever is good for them. Plus it only works if the patents live close enough to each other to make school not an issue. Ex bf and his ex wife were disagreeing about high schools and it was problematic as they only lived 3 miles apart but the catchments were different. You fail to appreciate that a lot of dad's (not all) waltz off into the sunset and happily leave all the parenting to the mother as we see all the time on MN.

Can't comment on how it would go if you went to court, but upon my divorce (abusive narcissist) courts ruled exactly 50:50. My advice is try to sort it between yourselves if you possibly can.

Soon op isn't restricting access to eow. He has the option of parenting in the weekdays to. But he doesn't want that.

With all due respect @Soontobe60 but I am commenting on my specific case, and I do believe I know my ex husband better than you!

I am not refusing to let my husband see the children every weekend. I am saying that as a structure it should be EOW but with flexibility so that he can see them in addition to that as often as he wishes.

The reality is that from the very beginning (before he had a gf) he suggested I have the children 12/14 and when I suggested he have them mid week he thought it wouldn't work with his job.

I am not saying I am the better parent because I am the mother. But in this case I am saying I am the better parent. This is based on actual history. Has he ever been to a sports day? Has he ever arranged a play date? Has he ever arranged before / after / holiday childcare? Perhaps if he had done his fair share of parenting in the first place we might not be where we are today!!

@GuaranteedHappiness that's a very good point. My exH liked to show off to anyone watching what a wonderful dad he was. Does he go to sports day? No. Was he there for DD's first day at high school or even just a call to wish her well that morning? No. Does he go to musical events? No. Is he there for her when she wants him? No. Does he care for her when she's ill? No. He is a parent for around 2/3rds of the court appointed time he has her. The rest of that time it's up to his gf, his gf's best mate, his dad, whoever he can get to watch her whilst he works or sleeps and she's only there EOW and half the holidays. They pick and choose when they want to be a parent.

I would think one or two days after school plus every other weekend is a good starting point - you need to be able to go out of town alone or with the kids. It seems he's playing games, he doesn't want the responsibility of a whole weekend

EOW was based on the Fifties notion that mums were the natural stay-at-home, primary caregiver whilst men went out and worked. As feminism has challenged the notion that women can't be breadwinners in their own so to has it challenged the idea that men can't be caregivers as well.

What????????
I got married in '76 and separated '85.

Courts weren't interested in getting involved.
We agreed EOW in theory. In practice it meant that he would let me know on a Friday (morning if I was lucky) if he was having them that weekend (I'm not having them for YOUR benefit). Took them away in the summer hols but took no responsibility for any other hols. He had moved straight in with OW, and her kids were a similar age. He paid me peanuts and demanded a seventh back for every day they were with him. Did no appointments, play dates or anything else. Bought no clothes, shoes or anything else.

And I thought he was being reasonable. Only violence was counted as abuse then. Rape in marriage and emotional abuse were not recognised.

An estranged father was thought of as being more than reasonable if he managed to keep in touch and see the children at all.

I'm glad things have move on and hope that 50/50 does become more common. I'm pleased more men are doing 50% of childcare but it is still the case that more men demand it than are really prepared for what it actually means. Props to those who do - and even more to those who are genuinely primary carer.

It’s amazing how many mothers can find a way to flex their work to collect DC by 6, but your ex can’t do that for even one day a week.

His suggestion means too much moving around for DC (IMO). If he wants to see them weekly, then he could fine a way to leave work 30min early one one day. Perhaps by starting early, working longer on the other 4 days he doesn’t have the DC, putting in a flexible working request (has he done one?).

Don’t let him guilt you into giving way on weekends. Go grey rock if he insists on it and say best to let a mediator get involved, if he’s insistent on the every weekend arrangement.

We find ourselves splitting weekends very often due to exh's work and because DD prefers to do only one night away (she has a lot of separation anxiety issues atm) and I have to say, in normal circumstances I would advocate EOW rather than splitting - especially with school aged children.

As the parent who does most of the practical things, it just makes life more difficult.

When she goes to his on Saturday evrning, it's one less day to get all the school laundry done. When I only have her on the Sunday, it's so frustrating that I have to use that time to get her homework done.
On a Saturday, she likes a lazy day, so there's not much we can with half a day if I want to make sure she has time to relax that she seems to need.

Necessary things like hair appointments, shoe shopping have to be planned well in advance and can make it so there's not the time to do anything fun for another week!

A full weekend is the only way for everyone to have real quality time IMO