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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Ex refusing to return kids-now wants to take them abroad

79 replies

greyrockblock · 19/06/2019 15:17

Hi again, following on from my thread about my exH refusing to return the kids (he returned them after police and SS involvement), he now wants their birth certificates so he can obtain passports to go abroad on holiday.
My gut instinct is screaming no but I'm possibly not being rationale after the events of last week. He's had them twice since then and I've been terribly anxious that he'll pull the same trick again so the thought of him having their BC and taking them out of the country is making me horrendously anxious.
WWYD?

OP posts:
aweedropofsancerre · 19/06/2019 20:44

Sorry last post was meant for Frith!

Crunchymum · 19/06/2019 20:52

Why has he been allowed access if there was police / SS intervention just a week ago?

Why have you had to give him access?

greyrockblock · 19/06/2019 20:53

Dd1 has had a passport before and I think I applied for that originally. DD2 has never had a passport. I was told by the passport office today I could do it online. However I'm not sure what I need to do it online as I've not looked yet. I don't need dd1's BC as is a renewal but assume I'd need dd2's?

OP posts:
greyrockblock · 19/06/2019 20:56

@Crunchymum because there's a court order in place and if I didn't let them go then I'd be breaching it. Having a good reason for breaching doesn't impress the judge as I've learnt.

OP posts:
breatheinskipthegym · 19/06/2019 21:07

If you don’t want them taken abroad, you HAVE to do something preemptively.

My ex took my children abroad without my permission, outside of the time he should even have had them. There’s been lots of police involvement with violence between he and his GF, and her towards my children, so I was justified in having concerns.

By law, a child can not be taken out of the UK without the permission of both parents. In practice, this means nothing. He’d stolen their passports months before, denied it so I cancelled them. He was then able to get out of the country on those same ‘lost’ passports, despite me speaking to the airport he was flying from directly, despite me speaking to the police based at that airport, and letting them all know my children did not have maternal permission to leave, and were not travelling on valid passports. All fell on deaf ears, and passports for UK citizens are apparently only visually checked when a UK citizen is leaving, so not against a system to see if valid.

If their father believes he should be trusted to take them on holiday, he can apply to court to have them grant permission and overrule you, but his actions will be given a very grave view by a judge/Sheriff if he removes them without your consent.

There’s also a team called the Caveats team at your passport office. They can put a flag against your children that you do not consent to applications/changes made by the father. Hard to find their details, I’ll warn you, though.

Hope this helps.

breatheinskipthegym · 19/06/2019 21:08

Sorry, meant to write about “without permission of both parents” that that’s assuming there’s no residence order or specific court order in place.

magoria · 19/06/2019 21:10

If you go to one of the photo booths they now give you a code. When you go on line to do the passport you put in that code and the photo is automatically uploaded! Bit worrying that your pic is just held somewhere.

Makes it very much easier.

If one of your DD has not had a passport before I am not sure what happens with the countersigning of the pic sorry.

greyrockblock · 19/06/2019 21:34

@breatheinskipthegym that's horrendous. I'm sorry you had to go through that Thanks

Just to clarify a few things:

ExH has contact

We have a Child Arrangement Order in place that states they live with me and have contact with him on specific dates

Dd1 has an expired passport

Dd2 has never had one

What I don't want to do is make things worse for me in any way. I'm happy to get the passports ASAP and keep that to myself. However if he wants to apply he's going to need my signature as he's not the resident parent (I think). In theory he would need to complete and sign and give me the money so I can complete the process as I have the birth certificates. There's no way he'd give me money and there's no way I'd give him the BCs so I'm not sure how he could get passports realistically.

OP posts:
AmICrazyorWhat2 · 19/06/2019 21:43

No real advice except I'd get the passports and keep them in a safety deposit box at the bank, not in your house.

greyrockblock · 19/06/2019 22:06

Why not at the house? How would I go about getting a safety deposit box?

OP posts:
frazzledasarock · 19/06/2019 22:13

I have a prohibited steps order whichever states ex cannot remove my children from my care. I sent a copy of this to the passport agency so any time anyone applies for a passport for my dc i get a phone call double checking whether the application has been authorised by me.

I think a non resident parent could get an authorised copy of the children’s birth certificates and apply for passports for them.

I’d be looking at getting a prohibited steps order which spells out that he is not allowed to remove the children from the uk without your permission.

Manclife1 · 19/06/2019 22:19

@breatheinskipthegym You don not need both parents permission if one parent feels permission would’ve been granted had they asked for or permission is refused unreasonably so. For example you can’t refuse permission for a weeks holiday to Spain.

LesLavandes · 19/06/2019 22:22

I renewed my son's passport this year and it specifically tells you that if there is a court order you must send the original form in

zippey · 19/06/2019 22:23

It’s a no brainer this one.

SD1978 · 19/06/2019 22:28

He is entitled to ask- and can do so through the courts to take them abroad- it can be stipulated to a Hague convention country only though. If he has proof of return- job, house, then most likely will be granted. But he'll have to pay to take you to court to request it.

LesLavandes · 19/06/2019 22:30

This is on the government website. You must provide this documentation

AmICrazyorWhat2 · 19/06/2019 23:11

I haven't read your earlier thread, but if your DD is confused and upset, she may decide that she wants to go away with your ex and look for her passport.

Just ask at your bank about getting a deposit box. It's a safe place to store important documents.

Frith2013 · 19/06/2019 23:15

I just leave birth certificates, passport etc locked in a box at my parents’ house.

breatheinskipthegym · 19/06/2019 23:19

Thanks @greyrockblock. I hope this resolves for you and your children with the least trouble possible. Understand you don’t want to be inflammatory, in my case I eventually had to confront things head-on, as the things he was subjecting the children to was escalating in frequency and seriousness.

Hi @Manclife1, don’t want to derail OPs thread my own experience. This is a defence yes. Didn’t apply in my case, he had my clear and direct refusal, on the basis of his and her violence, that my child is non-verbal, and asthmatic and he’d previously had her admitted to a&e hundreds of miles from home but wouldn’t tell me where in case his GF “kicked off”, so I couldn’t see/comfort/advocate for her for 4 days hospitalisation, and had form for taking them on UK ‘trips’ hours before they should have returned to me. When he said he’d like to take the children on holiday I asked for full details and he refused, so I very clearly told him that that was the final straw, I had major concerns about the children’s safety and his irresponsibility, that I refused permission and that to remove them despite that would be illegal. The judge gave him almighty short shrift and said that it was completely implausible that ex believed he was doing anything but the wrong, sneaky and reckless thing.

A reasonable parent with a good co-parenting relationship, perhaps history of extended/abroad trips, etc etc, can use that fallback. A parent with a contentious history could not, successfully.

greyrockblock · 20/06/2019 07:39

I'll look into things more today.
Maybe I should take him to court for breaching the court order and get a prohibited steps order due to him refusing to return them home.

OP posts:
Ghostontoast · 20/06/2019 08:39

As I think anyone can pay and get copies of birth certificates from the GRO, doing what frazzled has five and alerting the passport office is good advice.

Personally I think he’s trying to yank your chain again OP. Foreign holiday costs for him, his GF, all her/his brood and your DCs as well not to mention getting/renewing passports for everyone, it going to be £££ - he’s not planning a holiday at all just trying to wind you up.

Ghostontoast · 20/06/2019 08:39

five - how did that appear?

greyrockblock · 20/06/2019 13:17

I just want to scream and cry today. His is so aggressive and demanding in his emails to my solicitor. He's demanded a full years worth of dates for contact then when he's been sent them has picked holes in everything and refused to agree to any of the holidays dates or times. I fucking give up.

OP posts:
Nonnymum · 20/06/2019 13:21

You definitely shouldn't let him take them. How can you trust him after he has already refused to bring them back previously?

greyrockblock · 26/06/2019 08:04

I'm definitely going to try to get another solicitor. I emailed mine on Thursday and still no response.

OP posts:
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